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Well, that's just great. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Well, that's just great. (Score:5, Funny)
Now what am I supposed to call my brother-in-law?
Creationist!
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Re:Well, that's just great. (Score:4, Funny)
I thought attempting to get marked troll was part of the joke -- like, that mod in an of itself was the answer.
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Re:Well, that's just great. (Score:5, Funny)
I thought attempting to get marked troll was part of the joke
New scientific research is emerging that trolls are actually descendents of the Neanderthals. They are highly intelligent. And polite. And a productive contributor to any conversation. Who'd a thunk it?
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Re:Well, that's just great. (Score:5, Funny)
Only at low temperatures though.
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Re:Well, that's just great. (Score:5, Funny)
Uncyclopedia has this to say about Slashdot trolls: [uncyclopedia.org]:
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Re:Well, that's just great. (Score:5, Funny)
I dont think youre trolling.
You, sir, are absolutely right. A creationist is a really stupid evolved monkey.
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Re:Can someone stop the creationist mods in here? (Score:5, Funny)
Maybe they are. Have faith, and remember you don't get to meta-moderate God.
Only because God doesn't post on Slashdot.
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Re:Can someone stop the creationist mods in here? (Score:5, Funny)
Didn't get a low ID number and is now too embarrassed?
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Stone Tools (Score:5, Funny)
So easy a caveman can do it.
Re:Stone Tools (Score:5, Funny)
I was a young man in the stone age (1970s), you insensitive clod! I was a beta tester for dirt. They never did get all the bugs out.
The "stone age" was a wonderous time to be a young nerd. As there was cheap and easy contraception, no incurable STDs (the CIA had yet to invent AIDS), and women were trying to get parity with men, even a nerd could get laid! In fact, in the stone age women would ask ME (of all people) "wanna fuck, dude?" as easily as they would ask "Hey, you got a joint?" or "man, my radio's broke, can you look at it for me?"
File sharing (via cassettes) was legal. We had wooden computers called "slide rules" because electronic ones were still insanely expensive.
You young fellows don't know what you're missing. Man, I really miss the stone age.
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This is refuted by (Score:5, Funny)
The difference (Score:4, Funny)
The Homo sapiens bought out the Neanderthals tools and buried them, thus ensuring the success of Homo sapien tools.
Re:The difference (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:The difference (Score:4, Funny)
"The Homo sapiens bought out the Neanderthals tools and buried them, thus ensuring the success of Homo sapien tools."
No, our ancestors went to the overburdened Neanderthal Patent Office, "proved" prior art, and sued the Neanderthals into extinction.
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Pop culture != scientific consensus (Score:5, Informative)
We have known for a long time that Neanderthal had a larger brain than modern human and a sophisticated culture, including burial rites. There was no scientific consensus that Neandethal was stupid.
Re:Pop culture != scientific consensus (Score:5, Funny)
There was no scientific consensus that Neandethal was stupid.
... there is no scientific consensus that the average homo sapiens is smart, either.
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Re:Pop culture != scientific consensus (Score:5, Funny)
As a park ranger at Yosimite once said, "There is considerable overlap between the intelligence of the smartest bears and the dumbest tourists."
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Re:Pop culture != scientific consensus (Score:5, Funny)
I think this is all just part of Geico's back-pedal campaign.
They realize they screwed up and pissed off a bunch of Neanderthals.
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Re:Pop culture != scientific consensus (Score:5, Interesting)
The intelligence of Neanderthals is not necessarily the driving force of their ability to compete with homosapien. They could have been equally as smart or even smarter on an individual basis. However their collective intelligence, the ability to operate in larger groups, rather than extended family groups, means the while individually they might have been smarter and stronger they ended up being outnumber on the field of conflict.
Also homosapiens were likely to have been more vengeful and fielded a larger group to pursue and Neanderthals after a hunting party skirmishes, which initially the Neanderthals might have won and collected their prize of long pig only to be latter pursued by a far larger group combative homospaiens.
So the difference is not in the individual intelligence but in the social collective intelligence, the group that worked together, that shared an extended tribal awareness and, that were willing to sacrifice themselves, their time and effort in support of the future goals of the group proved to be far more successfully as a group. Pretty much the same as it is today. The societies where the individuals are only out to gain as much as they can for themselves regardless of the harm to the group create more unsuccessful society than those a care, share and are willing to work for the collective good. The ratio between the greedy few and the more aware majority define the nature modern societies more so than the individual intelligence of it's members.
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Re:Pop culture != scientific consensus (Score:5, Interesting)
Perhaps. It could equally well be explained as the Neanderthals being less aggressive. That's not group or individual intelligence.
Considering how close we've come to extinction, the choice between us and them probably came down to us being luckier than they were. They went extinct and we squeaked by.
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Actually, we don't know (Score:5, Informative)
Actually we don't know that Homo Sapiens hunted down Neanderthals either.
Warfare only appeared in Homo Sapiens around the time we discovered bows and arrows, about 20,000 years ago, in Africa. It's hard to tell if that was cause or effect or just a spurious correlation, but suddenly we get mass graves of people with arrow heads embedded in their bones and cave paintings of groups of archers shooting at each other.
At any rate:
1. There is no evidence of warfare before that. Neither in Homo Sapiens, nor in Neanderthals.
2. By the time missile weapons arrived in Europe, the Neanderthals were going extinct on their own. The long decline in numbers and area had happened before that.
Vengeful we may be, but killing someone in melee is actually an extremely traumatic thing. Unless you're a sociopath, you're still wired like an animal to not kill members of the same species. Overcoming that is very traumatic. The Romans for example recognized that and rotated the rows of a legion, so the soldiers would get some time to recover in the middle of a fight. Ranged killing seems to actually be easier, and it puts a wall of plausible deniability between you and the victim. Maybe it wasn't your arrow that killed that guy, after all.
From there we learned to manipulate people and use group-think to make them kill each other even in melee. But it took an awfully long time to get there, and the Neanderthals were already extinct by then.
Furthermore, Neanderthals were, if you'll pardon the bad WoW metaphors, all survival-spec hunters. Melee hunters. _Everyone_ hunted with spears, including the women. And they seemed pretty capable to cooperate in a group. Plus, see that thing about using the women too. If someone actually managed to start a war back then between a tribe of Homo Sapiens and one of Neanderthals, I wouldn't be surprised if the latter would have had the upper hand.
Exactly why they went extinct... now that's still a good question.
One theory was that they were strictly carnivore and their prey was going extinct due to both climate change _and_ over-hunting. Another one is that they just couldn't compete with us. The Homo Sapiens were hunters _and_ gatherers, and could survive and continue hunting a species into extinction even past the point where predator-prey balance would normally allow the prey to rebound. The Neanderthals relying only on that prey, would have been royally shafted.
Me, I'm wonder if we didn't kill them sexually, so to speak. Consider the following:
A. See, one way to get a species of, say, insects extinct, is to release lots and lots of sterile males. If enough females of that species mate with those, the population drops very fast.
B. There seem to be _no_ genes we inherited from Neanderthals. Considering that the areas for us and them overlapped for thousands of years, I find it unlikely that _no_ horny male of one species wouldn't find a female of the other species attractive enough, or viceversa. I mean, so they were short and stout lasses with sloped foreheads. A lot of people screw worse looking women nowadays. And conversely going to the pub and getting laid by a neanderthal is still a tradition for some girls ;)
It is very likely that the offspring of Homo Sapiens and Neanderthals were either sterile or non-viable. Plenty of closely related species produce sterile offspring when crossed. E.g., lion and tiger, horse and donkey, etc.
C. The sterile case is actually the funniest, because it may not be immediately obvious that it's a dead end. And in a lot of species such hybrids are bigger and stronger (a liger is twice the weight of a tiger, for example), so for a primitive sentient species it may even look like giving your children more chances of survival that way.
D. Both species had a chronic shortage of women, due to a life expectancy disparity. Death in birth or from resulting complications took a heavy toll.
So _if_ they were desirable enough (e.g., because Homo Sapiens tribes
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Re:Pop culture != scientific consensus (Score:5, Insightful)
Many long-held beliefs suggesting why the Neanderthals went extinct have been debunked in recent years. Research has already shown that Neanderthals were as good at hunting as Homo sapiens and had no clear disadvantage in their ability to communicate. Now, these latest findings add to the growing evidence that Neanderthals were no less intelligent than our ancestors.
It's evidence against the old, already-discarded concensus. So we can chalk this up to the lay media's love of turning articles into "scientific renegade tales", and inability to comprehend that science is continuously revising itself.
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Re:Pop culture != scientific consensus (Score:5, Informative)
Well, if they couldn't figure out the skull capacity from the skull cap found in 1829 they certainly could from the skull found in 1909. Those 19th century guys had a habit of thinking that white men were the smartest thing going so they probably thought Neanderthal was pretty dumb, but that was hardly a scientific view.
In 1880 Neanderthal remains were found with cultural items and tools. In 1983 a hyoid bone was found that showed Neanderthal vocal capabilities were probably almost identical to modern humans'. The Neanderthal graves at Shanidar were discovered in 1957. These are the famous ones that include pollen.
There has been a lot of controversy over various aspects of Neanderthal culture since their discovery. There really doesn't seem to have ever been a "scientific consensus" regarding their intelligence.
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Re:Pop culture != scientific consensus (Score:5, Interesting)
From your answer, I conclude that the term "pop culture" isn't quite the right term. I'd use "scientists' preconceived ideas". Among such ideas are:
* Dinosaurs were like today's lizards. This was a common belief 2 centuries ago.
* T-Rex was the king of dinosaurs, a terrible hunter. New evidence suggest it was more like the king of scavengers.
* Stomach ulcers could not possibly be caused by a bacteria. The discovery of the H. Pilori set them wrong.
* There couldn't be anything like black holes. And it was Einstein who believed this.
* There are 9 planets orbiting the sun. Turns out Pluto isn't even a planet.
See, precisely the point of science is that new theories can replace old theories (and even beliefs). But calling preconceived ideas "pop culture" is stretching it a bit too much. Unless you want to start a debate about Pirates vs. Ninjas :)
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Re:Pop culture != scientific consensus (Score:5, Funny)
But calling preconceived ideas "pop culture" is stretching it a bit too much. Unless you want to start a debate about Pirates vs. Ninjas :)
But there's scietific conseus that ninjas are cooler than pirates.
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Re:Pop culture != scientific consensus (Score:5, Funny)
Incorrect. It's the other way around. It's been shown with Science that pirates are so cool that they actually offset global warming. There are graphs that prove this. Ninjas, conversely, are hot. At least... girl ninjas are. 8)
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The study was easy. (Score:4, Funny)
The researchers found that their research was so easy, a homo sapiens could do it.
They went extinct because... (Score:4, Funny)
they embraced Open Source. Weapons. Tools. Technology as a whole. Homo Sapiens stole everything from them, made some improvements and made it Closed Source. Neanderthals had to buy their own inventions back. The competitive disadvantage put them under.
Let this be a warning to you all.
Re:They went extinct because... (Score:5, Funny)
Netcraft confirms it: the Neanderthal is dead!
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Not Aggressive enough (Score:5, Insightful)
It's pretty simple. They weren't aggressive enough and we wiped them out through brute force like we do everything else that's different.
Big shock.
Re:Not Aggressive enough (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, because Europe has a long history of peace and tranquility.
Africa currently lives in perfect communion with one another.
Russia is a paragon of pacifism.
And Asians are known for their brotherly love.
No brutal kidnappings and murder in Mexico.
And no death squads in South America.
Face it, humans are fundamentally flawed.
At least Antarctica is peaceful (but shrinking).
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Re:Not Aggressive enough (Score:5, Insightful)
There are quite a few. We're just smart enough to build weapons, and we have the hands for it. Spiders, tasmanian devils, and blue jays aren't really capable of mining metal and forging weapons. Chimps sometimes organize to kill other chimps (and sometimes other neighboring apes).
Why do so many people think that nature is peaceful?
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Re:Not Aggressive enough (Score:5, Informative)
I can only think of a couple of other species that are as warlike as homo sapiens, and that's bacteria or virii. Many animals are territorial and will kill their own. But we have taken it to an entirely new level.
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Humans - The Most Peaceful Creatures (Score:5, Interesting)
No, we really are not that violent, and we are getting more peaceful as time drags on. As a human, the chances of dying in war are very small. In fact, your chances of dying a violent death have been rapidly plummeting as time has moved on. Even our most horrific industrial wars kill vastly fewer people as a percentage of the population than simple day to day tribal conflict.
If you want to compare us against animals, we really don't rate that high. Society wide genocide is pretty common for insects. Other primates are at least as aggressive as us and suffer far more violent deaths. Many animals suffer pretty grievous loses to violent conflict over mating.
The only thing humans have going for them when it comes to the mass slaughter is that we have absolutely blasted our internal social limits on empathy. As a human, you are hard wired to live in a society no big than roughly 400 people. That is the limit of how many faces you can keep track of at a time, a pretty well documented limit of purely egalitarian human societies. Egalitarian tribal societies that get that big inevitably split. Through various methods of division of labor and hierarchies we have slowly been bumping up the size of a viable society. We are now to the point where a few hundred million is a perfectly reasonable size for a society.
France is a great example. This is a society of 60 million people. In general, they feel that they share a common bond and they feel empathy for each other. In general, they trust each other more than they trust others, and they think of each others needs over outsiders. True, one Frenchmen doesnâ(TM)t have as tight of a bond as his fellow country men as two men in a 100 unit tribal society, but it is close enough where they are a clearly distinct society. Just a couple of weeks ago 10 Frenchmen were killed in war (in Afghanistan). That is 0.000016% of the population. Despite this, it was a big deal in France. People acted like their social order had just taken not worthy losses and reacted accordingly.
Hell, take a step back and look at something more âoehorrificâ. 9/11 killed roughly 3000 people. That is 0.001% of the US population. That is 1 in every 100,000 people in the US died. We are talking about a miniscule number of people as compared to the society as a whole, yet despite this, Americans took the losses psychologically like family members had died.
My point is this; our murdering of fellow man has not increased. It has actually dropped, and dropped by a substantial amount. Further, compared to nearly all other species, as a human you are vastly less likely to suffer a violent death. The only thing that makes humans unique, is our empathy. Human empathy has grown and increased to the point where we care about millions and millions of people, rather than three or four around us. In our growing empathy, our old brains hardwired for societies less than 400 people have not kept up. As a result we think that the loss of 1 person in a tribe of 400 is less of a tragedy than the loss of 3000 people in a society of 300 million.
To put it more succinctly, your old monkey brain is fooling you. Humans are remarkably peaceful creature who get more peaceful with time, your old monkey brain just canâ(TM)t grasp that.
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Debunk? (Score:5, Insightful)
Finding evidence that may alter the "scientific consensus that has held for decades" is not debunking. It is the normal process of science. Debunking is the process of correcting misconceptions and exposing false, unscientific, or non-evidence based claims.
Re:Debunk? (Score:5, Interesting)
Finding evidence that may alter the "scientific consensus that has held for decades" is not debunking. It is the normal process of science. Debunking is the process of correcting misconceptions and exposing false, unscientific, or non-evidence based claims.
Furthermore, it's been a very long time since there was any scientific consensus about the "stupid Neanderthal" anyway. As another poster said, popular culture != science. The American Museum of Natural History has a now decades-old depiction of a Neanderthal in a suit & tie as part of an exhibit debunking the old popular-science depiction of Neanderthals as unsavoury brutes.
I recently read one of the more interesting ideas about how Neanderthals' brains differs from ours; this idea is due to Steven Mithen's The Prehistory of the Mind as described in Britain BC by Francis Pryor. Basically, his idea from interpreting Neanderthal art and tools is that they were no less intelligent but more "domain specific" than we are; they could excel at specialized tasks but fail to seize upon those very important cross-disciplinary insights involving multiple disparate fields of endeavour, which provide the basis for all our inventions.
In Britain BC, Pryor paints a picture of Neanderthals as a bunch of obsessive and overspecialized collectors. In reading about these somewhat Aspergian-sounding traits, I remember thinking that these guys would probably have made great coders! (Though maybe not project managers.)
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Re:Debunk? (Score:4, Informative)
[citation needed]
the great global swindle the 'documentary' has been debunked repeatedly, hell channel4 even got a bitchslap from OFCOM (equivilent of fcc). And its not like scientists are rich powerful men that can manipulate the media like the neocons
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Collectively stupid? (Score:5, Insightful)
We tend to try to compare individual intelligence but this is probably meaningless. The real reason for our species' success is not that we're individually brilliant, but that we are very good at dividing up large problems to solve collectively. This works thanks to our social instincts: respect for authority, sense of fairness, competitiveness, group belonging, etc. etc. The whole gamut, the reason why we read and post to Slashdot, because we're a social species and bloody good at it.
Neanderthals, larger, individually smarter, were presumably generalists that could do more by themselves but could not compete as well a group of modern humans, when it came to hunting and perhaps fighting.
Of course I'm defining "intelligence" very much in the sense of "how humanity thinks and solves problems". It's easy to claim superiority when one is the species writing history.
We aren't getting smarter. Not really. (Score:4, Insightful)
While there have been great advances, really we've been dealing with the same level of intelligence throughout history.
What has changed us is the quality of life.
When you don't have to slay a beast, drag water 4 miles and fend off hordes of enemies, robbers and the plague you can get 'more' done.
I'm sure in history there were many brilliant people. Some 4000 years ago with the documents we have people still had the same ideas, the same drama.
The Steven Hawking of 1000 years ago would starve or be stuck in a mud shack thinking about how to eat and if his family would leave him in the jungle. That doesn't happen in the developed countries.
After visiting the slums of Rwanda I often asked myself what these people would do if they had access to clean water. The answer - the same thing the Romans, the Greek, the Europeans, the French and the Americans. Build, expand and innovate.
D~y
Its not that they were dumber (Score:5, Funny)
Huh? (Score:4, Interesting)
WTF? We've known for this for at least thirty years now; that the earliest modern humans had tool kits that did not vary in any great way from Neandertals. In fact, it's one of the great puzzles of evolution that modern human behavior did not arise until a long time after modern humans (anatomically, at least) had evolved. For chrissakes, just look at the Levant where modern humans and Neandertals shared the same territories for thousands of years, with little to tell them apart other than their skeletons.
Language made the difference (Score:5, Informative)
The conclusions of this study are not exactly news. It's been known for some time that early homo sapiens tools were no more advanced than Neanderthal tools. But at some point, there was an explosion of creativity and inventiveness in modern man that the Neanderthals could not equal, probably due to home sapiens having superior language skills and capabilities, and the ability to share and communicate ideas in ways the Neanderthals could not. Modern man then evolved superior cultures and technologies that surpassed the Neanderthals.
One on one, raised without the benefit of language and culture, a modern man would probably be no brighter, and in fact considerably physically weaker, than a Neanderthal. But collectively, Neanderthals were no match for modern men with their more advanced languages, societies, and weapons.
Re:Language made the difference (Score:4, Informative)
Actually my understanding is that it is a less strict dietary requirements that allowed humans to survive while the neanderthals died off during an ice age. The idea is that humans would eat anything (omnivores) - greens, roots, fish, insects, meat, eggs, whatever and that the neanderthals were quite strict carnivores. When the source of food becomes scarce, those who are more diverse eaters will have an advantage.
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Re:i mis-read title... (Score:5, Funny)
That's stoned, not stupid :)
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Re:Developing stone tools... (Score:5, Interesting)
I see an error on thier logic.
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Re:Developing stone tools... (Score:5, Informative)
That's not really analogous at all. Sticks may very well be the optimum way of getting insects out of nests. But in the case of more advanced tool kits, there are certainly better kinds of tools for hunting and dismembering. The difference between the Paleolithic and Neolithic tool kits is substantial. The later stone tool kits used by modern humans included barbed fish hooks, spearheads and the like, innovations that simply did not exist among bipedal hominids. More importantly, compared to the hundreds of thousands of years that a tool kit might hang around during the Paleolithic with little or no change, the Neolithic saw radical innovations at a relatively fast pace.
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Re:Obviously... (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:Obviously... (Score:5, Interesting)
That being said, nothing in science is ever entirely conclusive -- everything is tentative.
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Re:Obviously... (Score:4, Informative)
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