Biologists Create Genetic Map of Europe 287
Death Metal Maniac brings us a story from the New York Times about a team of scientists who were able to relate genetic differences to geographical origins. Countries such as Germany, Austria, and France occupy the central area of the genetic map, with Italy, Finland, and the UK being relative outliers. Quoting:
"All the populations are quite similar, but the differences are sufficient that it should be possible to devise a forensic test to tell which country in Europe an individual probably comes from, said Manfred Kayser, a geneticist at the Erasmus University Medical Center in the Netherlands. ... Genomic sites that carry the strongest signal of variation among populations may be those influenced by evolutionary change, Dr. Kayser said. Of the 100 strongest sites, 17 are found in the region of the genome that confers lactose tolerance, an adaptation that arose among a cattle herding culture in northern Europe some 5,000 years ago."
Update: 08/16 15:11 GMT: Reader iminplaya points out the source article, which contains the technical details behind the study.
The Clash of Civilizations (Score:4, Interesting)
I recommend two books here:
The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order, by Samuel Huntington [amazon.com]
The Great Human Diasporas: The History of Diversity and Evolution, by Luigi Cavalli-Sforza et al [amazon.com]
Once humans evolved from apes, they went through several stages to create modern humans.
After that, modern humans underwent more aggressive development. This differentiated population groups.
Much like different programming languages are optimized for different tasks, but you can create just about anything in just about any language, human populations are different based on the optimizations that came about through their branch divergence.
This creates ethnicities, nationalities, and clines as mapped by Cavalli-Sforza.
Huntington points out that most of our modern wars have been caused by the nation-state, or an "imperial" grouping by politics that crosses these optimization lines, and suggests that as the superpower age winds down, people will identify with their optimization more than abstract and often illusory political concepts.
This is especially useful in understanding the difference between Georgia, Ossetia and Russia. For those who live in nation-states of an imperial nature, like the United States, Canada, Russia or UK, it's hard to grasp this, but not every country views itself as composed of generic people.
They view themselves as an organic nation, a notion which we may quaintly call "tribalism" yet seems to unite people with values more solidly than financial or political motivations.
The future will be determined by the struggle for these organic nations to define themselves.
All IMHO.
Turanian/Scandi/Baltic mix (Score:4, Interesting)
Finland is an interesting convergence of east and west. Their language is most closely related to Japanese and Hungarian; their population seems to be halfway between Swedes, Baltics and an Asian precursor.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turan [wikipedia.org]
The language record does not mirror the genetic record, necessarily, but it provides a useful clue.
I'm not sure how this is related to their ability to create quality death metal bands like Amorphis, Demigod, Abhorrence, Demilich, Belial and Sentenced. However, all of Scandinavia is a death metal powerhouse, so it may be "cultural."
oh dear (Score:3, Interesting)
Good job Hitler never had this kind of info. I can't see that as having ended well.
Interesting (Score:4, Interesting)
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
Lack of overlap (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm now kind of curious about how such a map of North America would look in comparison, because to me there are some pretty big areas here where there is no overlap (Great Britain, southern Italy, Poland, Sweden...). They've been on the same continent for how many centuries, and they're still so distinct?
Re:My wife is Finnish (Score:1, Interesting)
Heh, here is some space language for you: :)
Kahdennessakymmenennessätoisessakerroksessa.
And that reads: At the twenty second floor.
Our language is otherwise fine, but something definitely went wrong with our numerals.
The dairy board must be so happy! (Score:3, Interesting)
"...Most people switch off the lactose digesting gene after weaning, but the cattle herders evidently gained a great survival advantage by keeping the gene switched on through adulthood."
Behold the power of cheese!
Burnitdown made it up (Score:5, Interesting)
I never thought the race-war bozos would make it onto /. It's the usual propoganda: Name check someone prominent (who didn't say anything in support of your argument), add some bogus theory with no support (but imply that it comes from the famous names), through in a little kernel of plausibility (hey, there's racism right? Maybe we are all genetically pre-disposed to hate each other), and stir.
See? Hmmm ... seems plausible. But think: Maybe I'm different based on the country I was born in, the way my parents fed me, raised me (the fact that I had loving parents), their wealth and social connections, the forces and choices that formed my personality. My education, the books I read, what I chose to study, my teachers and role models, how hard I worked at it, how well I networked, the career and jobs I chose, the person I married, the city I live in ... Where does this genetic optimization come in?
I recommend the same books as burnitdown, only you should read them and not just name-check them. I read Huntington's Clash of Civilizations [foreignaffairs.org] when it was first published in Foreign Affairs. It says nothing at all about genetics or "optimization", only super-national cultural groups called 'civilizations', which are genetically diverse (see list here [wikipedia.org] ). You can read more here [wikipedia.org].
I haven't read Cavalli-Sforza, but The Economist seems to think [wikipedia.org] that his work challenges the assumption that there are significant genetic differences between human races, and indeed, the idea that 'race' has any useful biological meaning at all. Hmmm ... that seems opposite the ideas that burnitdown cited.
So Burnitdown is just talking out of his backside, start to finish. There is no outside support for it at all. I can't even imagine how it applies to Georgia, Russia, and North & South Ossetia. Does anyone know closely their populations correlate genetically? And why, on that basis, would South Ossetians want Russian more than Georgian citizenship? What the heck is 'Russian' genetically, anyway -- the country stretches from Europe to the Pacific; are they really genetically homogeneous?
Whenever I read something like this, I always try to remember: Think of the people who promolgate this theory of inevitable race-war hatred: From Milosovic to Bin Laden (who rails against Jewish people) to the Rwandan Hutu extremists to the KKK to, yes, Adolf Hitler. What have they accomplished? Then think of those who say that humans can integrate and live together regardless of supposed 'race', from Thomas Jefferson to Abraham Lincoln to Martin Luther King Jr., to Mahatma Gandhi and almost any current leader of prominence. Who has been more successful? Whose side would you rather be on?
Did you know that by the 3rd generation, most immigrants to the US marry across 'cultural' lines? Did you know that the rate of interracial marriage has increased ~700% in the US since 1970 [1] [wikipedia.org]?
Re:Lack of overlap (Score:4, Interesting)
"Great Britain might be part of Europe politically and in geological terms but there is the barrier of the English Channel which has kept us safe from French, Spanish and German invasion attempts for 900 years."
And yet Ireland shows more overlap with with continent than Great Britain.
Re:Italian (Score:3, Interesting)
I remember reading that the native pre-Rome population of Italy was mainly of ancient Celtic roots and types, ie. the same as for most of central Europe. But the Romans imported both slaves and commerce partners from North Africa, and subsequent interbreeding is where what we think of as the "typical dark and often curly-haired Italian" came from.
The same applies to Spain -- until the Moors, who left behind a lot of their genes despite being kicked out as overlords, the average Spaniard was light-coloured just like the rest of Europe. The dark Latino type is the product of Moorish crossbreeding.
One occasionally sees blonde, blue-eyed, very Celtic-looking Spaniards even today, the legacy of pre-Moorish Spain.
Re:Burnitdown made it up (Score:3, Interesting)
Name check someone prominent (who didn't say anything in support of your argument), add some bogus theory with no support (but imply that it comes from the famous names),
You did the same thing below (only using Gandhi's name).
Maybe I'm different based on the country I was born in, the way my parents fed me, raised me (the fact that I had loving parents), their wealth and social connections, the forces and choices that formed my personality. My education, the books I read, what I chose to study, my teachers and role models, how hard I worked at it, how well I networked, the career and jobs I chose, the person I married, the city I live in
Your argument is basically: genetics play no part since my upbringing(environment) plays a part. Don't you believe that genetics can also play a part? You are probably one of those persons who believe that any other argument is heresy and that genetic differences should not be researched.
With this I differ - of course the social environment plays a part - but there are genetic differences between population groups. Research into this should be encouraged and not suppressed (people doing research today are in the same position as Galileo - just look at how E.O. Wilson was treated).
Where does this genetic optimization come in?
Some researchers suggested that evolutionary pressures such as the environment (e.g. long cold winters, etc...) could cause differences in human genetics. The optimization would therefore be on the best evolutionary strategy for this environment. Whether this happened or not is debatable - but you have to admit that it is a plausible scenario.
Think of the people who promolgate this theory of inevitable race-war hatred: From Milosovic
The shit in the former Yugoslavia was because of Balkanization. Among some groups there was little genetic difference. The biggest difference between the groups were cultural issues (such as religion). I think you are confusing nationalism with racism.
to Bin Laden (who rails against Jewish people)
He is a religious fundamentalist. I doubt that you can call him racist because there were Americans, Africans, people from Indonesia, etc... in al-Qaeda. He perceives Israel as a threat to Islam and Islamic populations in Palestine - that is why he hates Jewish people (not because he feels that he is from a superior race).
Then think of those who say that humans can integrate and live together regardless of supposed 'race', from Thomas Jefferson to Abraham Lincoln to Martin Luther King Jr., to Mahatma Gandhi
I do not know the history of the USA well - but here are a few interesting things WP says about Thomas Jefferson (main article):
âIn this same work, Jefferson advanced his suspicion that black people were inferior to white people "in the endowments both of body and mind."
Mahatma Gandhi was extremely racist against black people (people sometimes ignore this because he did many great things in is life). Here are some quotes from him (most of these appeared in the SA opinion - for an online reference see wikiquote):
About this mixing of the Kaffirs with the Indians I must confess I feel most strongly. I think it is very unfair to the Indian population, and it is an undue tax on even the proverbial patience of my countrymen.
You say that the magistrate's decision is unsatisfactory because it would enable a person, however unclean, to travel by a tram, and that even the Kaffirs would be able to do so.
Ours is one continued struggle against degradation sought to be inflicted upon us by the European, who desire to degrade us to the level of the raw Kaffir, whose occupation is hunting and whose sole ambition is to collect a cer
TFAs engage in Jesuitic casuistry (Score:2, Interesting)
These linked-to articles are intellectually dishonest on two levels:
Note that I am not claiming that the studies discussed on the pages I linked to are paragons of integrity and transparency. I wish merely to show that TFAs are giving people a fractional distillate of available information. If you went to school at the Jesuits', you might refer to this sort of clever maneuvering as “interpreting vetted facts” — but I call it “lying with the help of a gratuitous reduction of the data”. If you had any doubts that there is an agenda behind the way data from genetic studies is presented to the public, consider this your wake up call.
Re:Turanian/Scandi/Baltic mix (Score:3, Interesting)
I speak some Turkish, and can understand a fair amount of languages all the way to Kazakhstan, since the Turkic languages seem to be fairly close to one another. I don't understand any Finnish or Hungarian, but I did meet a Japanese woman in Turkey who claimed that learning Turkish was much easier for her than learning English as the structure (not the vocabulary, though) of Turkish was much closer to Japanese.
What I do know, and is also probably the reason why numerous linguists have tried to group Finno-Ugric languages in with Tungus and Mongolic (and occasionally Korean and Japanese as well) is that the grammatical structure and syntax of all these languages are very similar. Vowel harmony, the agglutanting way of adding suffixes instead of prepositions and the case systems are common to most of these languages, as well as the general SOV word order.
However, it may be more a case of an historical Sprachbund [wikipedia.org] than real language relationships. Examples of these Sprachbunds (groups of otherwise unrelated languages sharing grammatical features through long time contact) would be Romanian, Albanian and Bulgarian. Bulgarian is a Slavic language, and although the Slavic languages generally have very complex case systems this is almost completely lost in Bulgarian and it also shares the curious feature of having a post-positional definite article with Romanian (Having the "the" after the noun instead of before it).
What I think one should be careful of is that linguistics is famous territory for nationalistic ideas. Linguistic theories have been proposed based on some very weird ideas in order to promote some agendas of racial or nationalistic superiority.
Re:Related (Score:3, Interesting)
Actually it's more like the beginning of WWII only do a search and replace w/ the following changes. Germany==Russia, Czechoslovakia==Georgia and Britain/France==United States. Namely, there is little a distant power can do to stop the larger power in central/eastern Europe from gobbling up its smaller neighbors. As for the WWI analogies it is possible that Georgia(Austria-Hungary) believed it had a blank check to attack South Ossetia(Serbia) from the United States(Imperial Germany). HTH