Russian Invasion of Georgia Might Jeopardize Space Station 515
mknewman writes "Sen. Bill Nelson, one of NASA's biggest proponents on the Hill, is openly questioning how Russia's military intervention in Georgia will affect our access to the space station after the Shuttle is retired in 2010. Currently, NASA is able to use Soyuz vehicles for crew access and lifeboat operations thanks to an exemption from the Iran Non-Proliferation Act. The exemption expires in 2011, only one year after the Shuttle is due to head to the museums."
When push comes to shove (Score:3, Interesting)
I am sure we will invent a new piece of legislation so we don't have to acknowledge our pesky integrity or morals.
After all, its just some little piss ant country, aren't the G8s allowed to run over one a year?
Whats next? Having doubts about going to the Olympics based on China's treatment of Tibet and other ethnic/religious minorities? Oops, looks like we forgot that one too, there G8 as well. I know, New G.... oops, can't go there... uh...
Oh yeah... Russia will have a hissy because we bitched, people will claim that talking would have worked or did work (ignoring the fact Russia got what they wanted and killed lots of people - but talking sure brought them back to life), and threaten to not allow us to fly but will cave in when we pay more.
Yeah, US foreign policy has been pretty much spineless when dealing with Russia since Reagans day... somehow since then we aren't allowed to piss them off. Peace sucks for the little guys as it means the big boys get to trample the little guys without worry about another big guy actually doing something about it.
I know, lets get the UN involved, they can write a strongly worded letter, well as long as none of the words offend the Russians and the Russians approve it of course.
Sheesh.
Re:What? (Score:3, Interesting)
Can anyone shed light on what is going on?
In particular, I'd like to know what non-proliferation in/of/for/by Iran has to do with Soyuz or Georgia.
Re:Russia has ultimate weapon. (Score:5, Interesting)
This is exactly it, and it's even more true for Europe. Europe is extremely dependent on Russia for their energy needs. That's why the reaction has been relatively quiet compared to the usual shrill screams that they have when a large country runs roughshod over a smaller one (even one that might have deserved it). It's the same reason they kowtow to the Arab states, and it's the same reason they can't seem to find it in themselves to do anything serious about Iran (notice the comma - I know Iran isn't an Arab state).
You can call it pragmatic or whatever, but I laugh a little every time I hear some smug European government official tell us how he or she is "principled" when it comes to foreign relations. The principle they're practicing ain't the same one they're preaching. The principle is, of course, "advance my country by any means possible". (Which is how it's always been, really.) The Russians and Chinese, however much I dislike their governments, at least tend to be up front about it.
Re:Russia has ultimate weapon. (Score:5, Interesting)
Russia has the greatest weapon of our time: oil. They have more than the Saudis. Nobody is going to piss them off and disrupt their supply.
Oil is what the Russia/Georgia conflict is actually about! There's lots of oil and gas in the Caspian Sea and central Asia. There are a couple of ways to get it, but two of the most important ones are:
1: through Kazakhstan and Russia
2: through Azerbaidjan, Georgia and Turkey
There's your conflict, including the reason why the US and EU want Russia out of Georgia.
There is a big problem actually (Score:5, Interesting)
Due to the desire of the US to use the space shuttle to service the ISS, it was placed in a much lower orbit then would otherwise have been the case. Certainly it was much lower then most interested parties wanted.
As a result of this it is constantly being slowed by friction caused by contact with the outer atmosphere. We are talking very slight friction, but at the speed of the ISS that slight friction is enough to bring it into a lower orbit over time.
One of the main worries after the challenger disaster was that space shuttle had been used to correct this reduction in orbit periodically by firing its thrusters whilst docked. Instead they had to use Soyuz capsules to try and do the same thing.
Its bad either way, but if there is tension and both countries stop going there, the orbit will deteriorate to the point where only a specialised mission to boost it would work. That may not be possible, or indeed successful.
While it would have to drop a long way to re-enter the atmosphere and burn up, it wouldn't have to drop too far to start being prohibitively complicated and expensive to get it back into its normal orbit.
American planning in action (Score:3, Interesting)
This is the United States of America, mister. We do not think ahead. We do not plan ahead.
Our shuttle was a marginally workable exercise in pork barrel politics. And now it's up for retirement long before it can be replaced. Probably to be replaced by another pork barrel exercise, eventually. Or obsoleted by a burst of finesse from Europe or the third world. (But I'm not holding my breath.)
Russia thinks ahead and plans ahead. Now they're holding all the space exploration cards. Of course now they're the only ones who can get to the ISS, or to put it another way, they got stuck with the task. I wonder how well they thought that through.
Possible solution...? (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:What? (Score:5, Interesting)
I think the Georgians (or at least the president) were completely foolish to try and invade when Putin was at the Olympics and think that he wouldn't do anything. Compounding it is the fact that they seemed to be carrying out (from what I gather from the BBC) seems like ethnic cleansing by firing on the civilian population, and then killing Russian troops in the process. They burnt their bridges to some of their possible allies, who were also allies who being militarily over-extended aren't really in a position to help.
What I think will happen is that giving it a few weeks people will forget about this. The whole situation will be framed as Ossetians (sp?) are just like Kosovo - they have a right to be independent, and with Russian influence in the region they will eventually become re-united with Russia. The issue of the ISS is just a distraction - everything will stay the same.
Re:I doubt this will really matter (Score:2, Interesting)
It's like if the areas predominately populated by mexicans tried to become their own state. You're sure as hell that the U.S. would attack them, but we are not attacking the mexicans due to their ethnicity.
Re:Russia has ultimate weapon. (Score:5, Interesting)
Oil is a big part of it, but it's hardly the only element. The real cause of it is that a reascendant Russian Empire is telling all the fledgling statelets that broke off during a decade of political and economic chaos after the collapse of the Communist Dynasty are being reigned back in. This is a pattern of behavior for Russia that is centuries old now. It has long viewed every region with Slavic populations as being either an integral part of Mother Russia or a client state. This was the case under the Muscovite Princes, under the Russian Czars and under the Communists (and in particularly under Stalin and the later Soviet leaders).
Oil certainly is a motivator, but I'm not even sure it's the main one. We're dealing with cultural and political forces and ideals that survived the Tatars, basically foreign rule under German noblemen (and in Catherine the Great's case, noblewoman), the upheavals of the late 19th century, the revolution and the civil war, the Bolshevik takeover, the harsh reign of Stalin and the inept rule of his successors, and even the near collapse of central authority after the fall of the Soviet Empire. It is has been a basic tenet of Russian foreign policy for centuries that wherever you find Slavs, they ultimately should owe their allegiance to the Muscovite Princes (whatever form that might take at any particular moment in time). Unfortunately, in a world of petroleum-dominated economics, we tend to think of things in terms of dollars and cents, and yet one should never underestimate the power of nationalism. Oil is simply the current coin by which Russia can exert its muscle, but the situation is no different than it was twenty years ago or two hundred years ago.
Russia may be forced to release its hold on some of the Western Slavic peoples like the Poles, Czechs, Slovaks and Ukrainians (the first three have long been more Western European in culture and religion, the latter is of greater pain to the Russian identity, many seeing the Ukraine as an organic part of Russia), but you can be goddamned sure that everywhere else where there is some sort of ethnic Russian minority or some pro-Russian Slavic population we're not likely going to be able to have as much luck.
Re:Russia has ultimate weapon. (Score:2, Interesting)
Yeah, I'm really disgusted with the EU, they've been spineless on Russia. The fact that a lot of our energy market is state owned (though not here in the UK) means the Russians can use a divide and rule strategy to isolate protesting countries (see the routine bad treatment of the ex-Soviet states). They know they can sell the gas to another state instead.
If the companies were private, they wouldn't have that leverage as they would have to stop all gas exports to Europe, as opposed to being able to do it nation-by-nation. This would hurt Europe a lot, but it would hurt Russia a lot too. At the moment Russia could stop selling gas to Germany at the drop of a hat and not have any effects elsewhere in Europe.
Re:Russia's ressponse was reasonable and justified (Score:2, Interesting)
Ok, I haven't read all of the comments yet so there's a chance I may be rudundant (but I doubt it). My questiosn is, why is war between Russia and Georgia any of our damned business, anyway?
How would we feel if we attacked Mexico and Russia butted in? It seems Sen. Bill "ha ha" Nelson and the rest of his co-conspirators in the Senate and Congress needs to butt out of Russia's and Georgia's business.
If NATO or the UN steps in then that's different, but afaik they haven't.
I'm sick of my country playing the world's policeman.
Re:typically, your numbers are dead WRONG (Score:1, Interesting)
Where did those 150+ tanks magically appear from?
Those 4000 troops that were sealifted within 48 hours?
That kind of staging takes months to prepare.
South Ossetia exists to collect welfare payments for its 200,000 citizens who in turn vote for whoever the kleptocrats want.
Russia has now entered Georgia. Rape, pillage, and burn. If your grandparents are from the Soviet Bloc, ask them about the Russian Army.
Understanding Russians Designs on Asia and Europe (Score:3, Interesting)
The author insightfully wrote, "We could walk away from [savage Russian brutality against Western nations], hoping for things to cool off, and let the Russians impose sway over the lower Caucasus for now. But no one will fail to notice our weakness. If we don't draw the line here, it doesn't get easier down the road with any other border or country. We would be risking the future of Afghanistan, and the stability of Iraq, on the good will of Moscow and the mullahs in Tehran. This is how the game of grand strategy is played, whether we like it or not."
Only on /. ... (Score:3, Interesting)
Would that be considered more newsworthy than the fact that over 1000 civilians died in the first attack. :(
Re:Russia's ressponse was reasonable and justified (Score:2, Interesting)
They only became a part of Georgia in 1921 under the Soviet Union. Pretty much since the fall of the USSR and Georgian independence the South Ossetians have expressed their wish though referendums (in 1992 and 1998) and a full-blown war in 1992 to seek independence from Georgia and reunite with North Ossetia which is currently a part of the Russian Republic of North Ossetia-Alania.
They only fell into Georgia proper with end of the Soviet autonomous oblast of South Ossetia in 1990. There was only two years that they had been in Georgia proper before the start of their fight for independence from Georgia.
Really the border should of been redrawn with Georgia independence in late 1991.
Re:typically, your numbers are dead WRONG (Score:3, Interesting)
Now I would prefer if Kosovo remained in Serbia, the Albanians, who were moved there by Mussolini as part of the WWII Nazi relocation efforts to neutralize problematic countries (eg Serbia) could go back to Albania and South Ossetia could remain part of Georgia for all I care.