Russian Invasion of Georgia Might Jeopardize Space Station 515
mknewman writes "Sen. Bill Nelson, one of NASA's biggest proponents on the Hill, is openly questioning how Russia's military intervention in Georgia will affect our access to the space station after the Shuttle is retired in 2010. Currently, NASA is able to use Soyuz vehicles for crew access and lifeboat operations thanks to an exemption from the Iran Non-Proliferation Act. The exemption expires in 2011, only one year after the Shuttle is due to head to the museums."
anonie-mouse (Score:1, Informative)
apparently, Georgia attacked first, a prodominantly russian population.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_jCdbcAjNM
Shit, I forgot... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:When push comes to shove (Score:4, Informative)
Having doubts about going to the Olympics based on China's treatment of Tibet and other ethnic/religious minorities? Oops, looks like we forgot that one too, there G8 as well.
No, China's not part of the G8. They're part of the O5 ("Outreach 5"), a group of less developed nations recognized by the G8.
Squeal like a pig! (Score:3, Informative)
'Officials at the space agency said Monday that they will still hold to their word that the Constellation program--a mission of the newly developed Ares 1 rocket and Orion crew capsule to the ISS--will happen by March 2015, five years after the space shuttle program shuts down. But a previous goal of an early launch in 2013 has now been moved to 2014 because of budget constraints. NASA officials are also leaving wiggle room there.'
http://news.cnet.com/8301-11386_3-10015009-76.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-5 [cnet.com]
Hard to believe those culturally insensitive crackers managed to go from zero to the Moon in eight years using 1960s technology...
Re:When push comes to shove (Score:2, Informative)
so you don't even know what Georgia did to provoke the response do you?
I honestly think there is enough blame to go around on both sides here (Georgia overreached but Russia hasn't exactly gone out of her way to solve the issues in South Ossetia either) but I get nervous when a large country with a history [wikipedia.org] of [wikipedia.org] aggression [wikipedia.org] and outright annexation starts to beat up on a small neighbor.
Why don't you ask somebody from Poland, the Baltic States, Finland or Ukraine what they think of recent Russian actions?
Re:Russia's ressponse was reasonable and justified (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Russian Retaliation (Score:4, Informative)
please look up the geographical position of georgia.
it directly borders to chechnya where russia waged two wars in the last 15 years and where still lots of troops are in a ready state.
also, a couple of ships of every military fleet are ready to sail.
Re:There is a big problem actually (Score:5, Informative)
Re:What? (Score:5, Informative)
Clinton signed the Iran Non Proliferation Act [armscontrol.org] penalizing any country doing weapons-related business with Iran. Russia has been selling missiles and nuclear fuel which meant we couldn't do business with them. Hence the exception.
The exception was a tough sell the first time and NASA concerned it's dead in the water when time comes to renew it.
Re:US manned spaceflight ends in 2010 (Score:2, Informative)
This is bogus, I work in astrophysics, and rocket design. There wont be available human travel because nothing we have currently is man-rated. Not due to the us money issues. Ares, although total crap will be ready to take the human flight crown in 2014, and if the us would take even 1% of the current DoD budget and place it toward the development of ares, it would be ready within a year.
Re:priorities man! (Score:5, Informative)
Re:When push comes to shove (Score:5, Informative)
just so long as you realize these 'freedom fighters' of south osetia had won a majority election, which was then overturned by the Georgia government by holding a special election where the polls were guarded by armed guards to 'elect' a pro-Georgia government.
just so you realize only 28% of the population of south osetia is actually Georgians and that the entire reason for this war is that Georgia wants the tax revenue on all the freight lines that run from Russia to Georgia through south osetia.
yeah,yeah russia made the population of south osetia russian citizens so they could invade goergia, and possibly grab a significant portion of their oil fields, but it's not like georgia are good guys either.
Re:Russia's ressponse was reasonable and justified (Score:5, Informative)
Did you get these numbers from a bubble gum machine?
There were about a dozen of Russian peace keeper troops dead, along with over 1500 civilians, all of which died either during the "hailstorm" barrage from Georgia side, or directly by Georgian troops... But who cares about civilians, right?
Re:What? (Score:5, Informative)
Basically, the US pays Russia a retainer for having the Soyuz craft docked at the ISS. The Iran non-proliferation act more or less forbids the US from dealing with any country that trades in arms and weaponry with Iran. Russia has a history of dealing in arms with Iran, so there are provisions and exceptions. I'm guessing these are in jeopardy with the recent conflict in Georgia.
Re:What? (Score:5, Informative)
It's about a U.S. law (the Iran Nonproliferation Act), not an international non-proliferation treaty.
Congress has expressly forbidden the U.S. from making ISS-related payments to Russia unless it determines that Russia is taking steps to curb proliferation of weapons technoogy to Iran. On something of a "we have to or we're screwed" basis, they enacted a temporary exemption so we could pay Russia to carry our crewmembers to the ISS.
So when the exemption expires, Russia's authority to launch Soyuz vehicles will not fall under question. US authority to purchase passage on those vehicles will be gone, though.
So:
1) If current events create enough antipathy towards Russia in the US Congress, then they may be unwilling to extend the exemption. Essentially they'd be re-enacting an economic sanction even though we don't have an alternate vendor for the service in question.
2) Even if Congress extends the exemption, there's some question about Russia's ongoing willingness to sell us passage on their rockets (at a reasonable price, or maybe at all) if diplomatic relations worsen.
Re:I doubt this will really matter (Score:3, Informative)
It seriously dried up the amount of people in the west sympathetic towards communism and marxism in general. It deprived the Soviet Union of most of their left wing political support, as well as their supply of spies.
How many Rusophiles will change their opinions after this particular incident?
Re:Russia's ressponse was reasonable and justified (Score:5, Informative)
it should have no effect on our relations. WE should apologize for egging Georgia on./ Those cowards staged a missile attack on a city in the middle of the fucking night. After 10+ years of peace. fuck Georgia, they got what they deserved.
EXACTLY! I've been shocked by the abysmal coverage we've been getting from the major news outlets in the US! I felt sorry for the Georgians until I did some of my own research.
This is a simple story FULL of douchebaggery on all sides...
Background:
- Russia has bad bad bad history with Georgians
- The South Ossetians have wanted to split from Georgia for 10+ years now via several democratic votes, and identify themselves with the Russians (use the same currency, etc.).
- Russia is sympathetic to South Ossetia, and again, HATES GEORGIA.
- Russia has tactical incentive to stop Georgia from joining/bringing NATO into Russia's backyard. They are looking for an excuse to mess Georgia's shit up, and it's no secret.
- Russia has been flexing its war muscle for the past year or two after having run into some petro dollars.
- Georgia doesn't want to let South Ossetia break away, and there has been sporadic fighting in the region related to this fact.
- AGAIN, Russians hate hate hate the Georgians, and are kind of partial to the South Ossetians.
What happened:
- Georgia KNOWS that Russia is amassing troops on the border (big time), and is just looking for an excuse.
- Georgia KNOWS that Russian peacekeepers are in South Ossetia.
- Georgia is counting on the fact that its western ties will keep Russia out... maybe even hoping that we will intervene on their behalf if they start shit.
- Georgia sucker punches South Ossetia in the middle of the night with heavy weaponry (probably supplied by us or our allies). Kills 1500+ civilians, and about a dozen Russian Peacekeepers. (keep in mind that 1,500 civilians is a significant percentage of all South Ossetians, making this a borderline genocidal act)
- Georgia acts all surprised when Russia completely tank fucks them the next day. They act even more surprised when Russia doesn't stop at repelling their attack on South Ossetia and keeps messing their junk up.
- The USA airlifts Georgian troops from Iraq into the theater of combat to fight AGAINST the Russians (SERIOUSLY! WTF GUYS? Let's mind our own business. If you were a Russian, how would you feel about the USA right now?)
and the media reports "Russia invades Georgia"
Bullshit.
The worst part is that if Georgia had actually made it into NATO, we could have very well gotten ourselves tangled up in WWIII here.
p.S. if you need it in pictures :
here [imageshack.us]
Re:There is a big problem actually (Score:2, Informative)
You got it assbackwards. The iss is in a construction orbit right now. That means it's lower so its easier to lift stuff to there. When it's done, its altitude will be doubled.
Its orbit is inclined in a way that gives Russia a much easier time getting to it, while the US needs to spend more energy and fuel. this was done to convince the Russians to get on board with the whole project.
Look at any ground track of the iss, it goes parallel to the earths rotation when it's at Russian latitudes, not US ones. This means that at liftoff the Russians can use more of the momentum of the earths rotation for orbital insertion.
Also there was no iss when Challenger was destroyed in the 80's. You probably meant Colombia.
Re:Russia's ressponse was reasonable and justified (Score:3, Informative)
I guess you don't have any Russian ancestors who immigrated to the United States.
My anscestors were Irish, but you haven't heard me calling for war against England for their opression of the Irish.
Re:When push comes to shove (Score:5, Informative)
Kosovo was essentially created by Marshall Tito, as an autonomous region. The borders were drawn to limit Serbian power and domination of Yugoslavia, but it was still majority Albanian. It had never been a part of Serbia properly. Kosovo autonomy was revoked by Milosevic (giving him one extra vote in the Yugoslavian presidency). At which point Albanian was removed as an official language, Serb was taught in the schools, etc. There was a period of resistance, terrorism, crime, etc, after this.
The UN had resolutions regarding Kosovo, there were the Dayton agreements, Kosovo Verification Mission, etc. There was a long time-line here. Both sides were at fault. Things reached a climax after the massacre at Rachak, and NATO decided it had to step in and force a peace; force Serbia and Milosovic to stop acting like thugs, and threaten the KLA to behave or they'd be abandoned, and restore the pre 1990 autonomous status of Kosovo. Further peace talks were attempted. All before any bombing. The bombing was by NATO, an alliance, not a US unilateral action. The US is not the boss of NATO, and NATO was acting in the interests of Europe in this case.
The difference here from Georgia and South Ossetia is the time line and number of parties involved. Russia acted immediately after the attacks on Tskhinvali, with no negotiations, no UN consultations, no diplomacy, no formal protests, no attempted peace process, etc. Russia responded in less than one day. Russia acted unilaterally.
There are very interesting similarities though: Kosovo was never really a part of Serbia, and South Ossetia was never really Georgian, except by the drawing of borders for political reasons. Both Kosovo and South Ossetia had armed separatist/resistance movements. Both Serbia and Georgia attempted harsh crackdowns. Both Serbia and Georgia badly underestimated the backlash that they would get from NATO or Russia.
Re:Russia's ressponse was reasonable and justified (Score:1, Informative)
Re:There is a big problem actually (Score:3, Informative)
False The ISS orbit was lowered because a) the increase in orbital inclination to allow the Russians to participate lowered the effective cargo capacity of the Shuttle and b) the original orbital altitude was too high for Soyuz and Progress to reach anyhow.
Misleading Even at the original planned altitude ISS would have required periodic reboost. You have to go pretty far out before you don't need reboost.
False The primary method of reboost is the Progress, not Soyuz. Shuttle provides large reboosts in order to reduce the amount of fuel required by Progress and thus to increase the amount cargo Progress can carry. The main worry after the Columbia accident was that the ATV, which also backed up Progress, was running behind schedule - which meant there wasn't any backup at all.
Misleading ATV is now available to backup Progress and Shuttle, so barring another Shuttle accident, this concern is years away. (The bigger concern is that in the unlikely event both countries stop going, the ISS isn't designed to operate autonomously for significant periods.)
Re:Russia's ressponse was reasonable and justified (Score:2, Informative)