Home Science Under Attack In Massachusetts 1334
An anonymous reader tips a guest posting up on the MAKE Magazine blog by the author of the Illustrated Guide to Home Chemistry Experiments. It seems that authorities in Massachusetts have raided a home chemistry lab, apparently without a warrant, and made off with all of its contents. Here's the local article from the Worcester Telegram & Gazette. "Victor Deeb, a retired chemist who lives in Marlboro, has finally been allowed to return to his Fremont Street home, after Massachusetts authorities spent three days ransacking his basement lab and making off with its contents. Deeb is not accused of making methamphetamine or other illegal drugs. He's not accused of aiding terrorists, synthesizing explosives, nor even of making illegal fireworks. Deeb fell afoul of the Massachusetts authorities for... doing experiments... Pamela Wilderman, the code enforcement officer for [the Massachusetts town of] Marlboro stated, 'I think Mr. Deeb has crossed a line somewhere. This is not what we would consider to be a customary home occupation.' Allow me to translate Ms. Wilderman's words into plain English: 'Mr. Deeb hasn't actually violated any law or regulation that I can find, but I don't like what he's doing because I'm ignorant and irrationally afraid of chemicals, so I'll abuse my power to steal his property and shut him down.'"
just another thing going wrong ... (Score:5, Interesting)
Although he could be using his home chemistry lab to do illegal things, the government should not be allowed to enter and seize on the ability to do wrong, only on the reasonable suspicion.
If the ability to cause problems was a legitimate reason to stop someone from practicing their hobby, then what about gun enthusiasts? What about drunks? And what about people with cars?
I don't care if you have a home chemistry set, just don't blow up my house.
Once you infringe on my rights, you're in the wrong - and that applies equally to the government!
He didn't conform! (Score:5, Interesting)
So his ''crime'' was to do something slightly different from the rest of the population.
Then I got to thinking: What is normal, what does Mr average do in his spare time ? Does this mean that anyone who does anything except: watch TV, visit shopping malls or go to the pub is weird and so under suspicion ?
I think that I'll put my walking boots on and think about it on a long stroll .... drat - that'll put me under the microscope :-)
protest by buying his book (Score:4, Interesting)
There are always people with authority and the stupidity to use it. So he's been shut down, yes it's terrible - and illegal - and unconstitutional. Perhaps the best way to show your outrage: buy his book: at $29 bucks, why not? That way, just in case justice is not done, he will be able to be well financed to return to his work.
The EAA had the same fight. (Score:5, Interesting)
The EAA had the same fight about home builders. :)
For those that don't know the EAA represnts people that build their own airplanes or restore old ones. At least one town made it illegal. The EAA usually fights such things and often wins.
Too bad there isn't an EAA for Chemistry.
BTW I am a member of the EAA
Welcome to the club. (Score:4, Interesting)
There have been similar problems for those who handload ammunition. "Oh my god, this man had 12 pounds of gunpowder in his garage! And look at all this ammunition! It's an arsenal of destruction!"
And no, that's not hyperbole. It's happened. Generally only in places like California or Massachusetts, with their high proportion of Gun Fearing Weenies(tm), but not exclusively.
Re:How Dismal (Score:2, Interesting)
Bush is not the cause of our latest troubles. He is just a loudmouthed, embarrassing symptom. I fear for America. We survived British colonial rule, we survived European interference, we survived Nazism, we survived Communism; others things being equal, I think we would even survive Islamic fascism. However, I do not think we will survive this proud-to-be-stupid anti-intellectualism now so widespread in our ailing society.
I see these racist rednecks driving oil guzzling trucks and SUVs, and then I see these freedom always liberals turning around and making excuses for the most misogynistic, homophobic philosophy that we confront today. The future is not bright.
Re:He didn't conform! (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:How Dismal (Score:5, Interesting)
I wonder how long before people in possession of scary "hacking software and equipment" are subjected to similar intrusions? Welcome to the NewUSA, where all knowledge is classified.
This has already happened once to a friend of mine who collects large systems and does component-level development.
The local HOA lady called the cops because he had so many computers that "He must be doing something illega! Look at all those wiiiires!"
Re:And they say ... (Score:3, Interesting)
Perhaps you're lucky and live in Austin -- the "Silicon Hills" - the land locked country in Texas where everyone usually has a brain that can think independently. Unfortunately I live in Houston, deep in the "Bible Belt", where there is a church every half mile.
jdb2
Re:America used to be #1 (Score:5, Interesting)
My dad took my chemistry set away when I almost blew the house up. But this 4th of july my old friend Mike's seventeen year old son showed me a brand new way of blowing stuff up; it's in one of my NSFW journals. Anyway, put a little "Works" toilet bowl cleaner in a plastic bottle, but a strip of aluminum foil in it, screw on the cap, shake it, toss it down and walk away and it waill react violently and noisily, louder than a shotgun blast.
The kids are indeed doing chemistry.
Re:Call the FBI? (Score:1, Interesting)
Irrelevant. What you want and what is legal are two different things here. Were the chemicals illegal for an individual to possess? If not then no matter how many he had there's no good legal reason to take them. You do know that a lot of cleaning chemicals are potentially explosive right? Heck, water, given the right conditions, can be made potentially explosive.
If you want all potentially explosive material not stored in a proper state removed from people's houses then let's start with yours, I'm sure we can take 10 or 15 items away that you might not have even known were potentially explosive.
Re:Call the FBI? (Score:4, Interesting)
"Mr. Deeb declined to comment yesterday. Authorities say he has patents pending and had been using his basement as a science lab to conduct experiments, possibly for many years.
Firefighters found more than 1,500 vials, jars, cans, bottles and boxes in the basement Tuesday afternoon, after they responded to an unrelated fire in an air conditioner on the second floor of the home.
Pamela A. Wilderman, Marlboroâ(TM)s code enforcement officer, said Mr. Deeb was doing scientific research and development in a residential area, which is a violation of zoning laws."
so the firefighters were at the house legally and found the stuff (he may have told them about it to make them aware of the chemicals when fighting the fire) and the 'residential' community in question has zoning laws that prevent people from developing A-bombs and other such crazy stuff; i.e. serious research and development.
This was not just a small backyard tinkerer. He has patents pending and is a retired chemist.
Right or wrong, ff you don't like the zoning laws, change them or move.
Guess she'd have a real problem with Thomas Edison (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:What's the big deal? (Score:1, Interesting)
No seizure can occur without already-ascertained evidence of law breaking. The we'll-let-you-know-later-what-you-did mentality these government officials have displayed here is directly contraindicated by the supreme law of the land known as the constitution. That piece of paper used to mean something. Then, at some point, the government decided it was just a piece of paper and they did not have to follow it. Unfortunately for them, the government itself cannot exist without it. If they continue down this path the predictions of the founding fathers, unfortunately for everyone, may come to pass. In summary, the government should follow the law, not flaunt it like they did here. It hurts everyone even if they only think it hurts others. We all must pay for the law-breaking of these government officials.
Re:Chemicals (Score:1, Interesting)
They will enter your home to fight a fire even against your wishes. You can't just torch your own house.
You are correct that the law generally works in their favor (the fire dept.) but that doesn't make it "right" or even constitutional.
This is similar to why drug users don't always seek help in an emergency.
Re:America used to be #1 (Score:5, Interesting)
I very nearly got expelled in the 7th grade for an experiment with hydrogen. [slashdot.org] These days a kid who showed that kind of curiosity would be behind bars.
Good God. America has lost it (Score:5, Interesting)
They came first for the amateur chemists... (Score:1, Interesting)
...and I did not speak up because I was not an amateur chemist.
Then they came for the model rocketeers and I did not speak up because I was not a model rocketeer.
They they came for the r/c pilots and I did not speak up because I was not an r/c pilot...
Re:Call the FBI? (Score:2, Interesting)
FTFA:
"Vessels of chemicals were all over the furniture and the floor authorities said."
They were already there responding to a air conditioner fire. They saw large amounts of chemicals that they probably didn't know what they were for or what they could do. Thats your probable cause. We know that he wasn't doing anything dangerous _now_ after the hazmat folks had a chance to check it all out, but you want the cops banking on that?
Question. Say this guy had turned out to actually be making bombs or meth, and it came out in the news that the police were there a few days back and didn't do or say anything? How pissed do you think people would be at them then.
Re:And they say ... (Score:4, Interesting)
Animal Control Gone Wild... (Score:4, Interesting)
Jackson County Michigan just got rid of such a petty bureaucrat. She was an animal control officer that put a pig farmer out of business because his pigs were in the mud. Well, the problem is that mud is necessary for pigs well being, it helps them keep from getting sunburned and it cools them. This same officer then (about a year or two later) raided a horse farm because she didn't like the way the horses looked (remember these horses are livestock not pets). A vet friend of mine looked at the horses and didn't see anything wrong - yet the county found some lackey vet to say that there was a sick horse in the herd (a very common occurence when you have more than 2 horeses). The upshot of this story is that the animal control officer no longer has her job and the county is getting sued for the value of the horses they confiscated and sold at auction. I would expect that this ordinance officer will meet the same fate when the agrieved party hires an attorney and sues both her personally (for civil rights violations) and the city/county for other things. These things have a way of working themselves out.
Read Feynmans Auto-Biography? (Score:3, Interesting)
Him and his friends used to make Pipe Bombs!
Yup, real actual bombs. Till one of his friends was killed by one.
Any kid doing that today would be jailed and screwed for life. Feynman got to win a Nobel Prize, and, um, develop the Atom Bomb (but we'll ignore that one..).
I'm not saying he should have been doing such dangerous stuff as a kid, but the point is, smart kids will do complicated but dumb things just because its fun.
Re:I would like a true discussion of this. (Score:3, Interesting)
Thank you very much for posting this. It's too far down the page to get much attention, but I appreciate reading it.
If the chemicals were, in fact, unmarked, this is a total non-issue. Furthermore, as the son of a chemist, I have absolutely no problem believing the chemicals were unmarked. When you work with something daily, you don't need a label to tell you what it is usually.
Re:And they say ... (Score:2, Interesting)
It would be wise for any community to be notified in advance of chemical experiments in progress. Exhaust gases as well as waste products may well harbor far more danger than the experimenter is aware of.
A great example are the common products that used to contain PCBs. PCBs are now thought to cause diabetes and are dispersed throughout our environment.They are almost impossible to eliminate.Yet they were though of as being safe by the entire chemical industry. Imagine how far wrong an individual chemist, working alone, without review, might be.
Re:Is anyone surprised? (Score:5, Interesting)
I wish I had mod points for this, I've had the same experience.
Also, I'm just going to f***ing say it, I'm not the least bit afraid of some guy building a bomb or buying an "assault weapon", and killing me with it. Yes, it could happen, but I could also be struck by lightning, get hit by a car, or any number of other things (all of which would probably be more likely), taking chances is simply part of life.
What I am afraid of is our growing police state. Right now its disarmament of the population, and overly restrictive laws that can be enforced at the governments discretion, all made possible by the gradual repealing and (appalling) reinterpretation of protections designed to guard us against this sort of thing, God knows where all this is going.
Come to think about it, I'd feel a hell of alot safer if all my neighbors possessed bombs and actual assault weapons (select fire).
Re:He didn't conform! (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:America used to be #1 (Score:5, Interesting)
I was doing this as a teenager (the early 1990s) and ended up getting into a small bit of trouble over it.
Basically, as a prank, we set off about 20 of these things outside of a kids window late at night. Using 2 liter bottles they really do sound like shotgun blasts. THe smaller 16oz bottles aren't as loud but we had plenty of them mixed in as well.
Well, the kids parents didn't think this was very funny at all, and we all knew each other (these were "BBS acquantances") and we got hauled into the police station. Everyone's parents were also there.
The cops were asking how we learned to do this. I fibbed a bit and said that we learned it in chemistry class... basically HCL and metal causes an acid-metal reaction, and releases a ton of gas. The principles of acid-metal reactions are certainly well-explained in HS chemistry, and that's what I said.
One of the moms was like "WHY ARE THEY TEACHING THIS KIND OF THING IN SCHOOL?" and got all emotional about it. I continued lecturing: "actually, this is simply basic chemistry, and it is important that kids are taught this kind of thing. we chose to use this knowledge to be mischevious" blah blah blah.
A few years later we heard of kids doing the same stuff and they got in _way_ more trouble over it. Times and attitudes have changed and this kind of stuff isn't funny anymore (well, it is, but not many people who matter think so).
The happy ending of this story is that I made one more of these things for a practical project / application talk in a later HS chemistry class. The class got to go outside and watch me set one of the things off. As long as I was able to explain the chemistry sufficiently and keep the class interested in chemistry, the teacher was all for it.
My father in law's mom was a science teacher; he'd give her a list of stuff to order periodically and she'd get it for him without asking questions. He blew up the kitchen table once. Another time he set a forest on fire with a frenell lens and some magnesium. He ended up getting a Chemical Engineering degree later in life and these days is one of the foremost industry experts at what he does. Nobody ever got hurt and society is certainly better for his contributions as an adult.
It's important to let kids be kids. Curiosity is the most important thing in a child, and one reason that I'll be homeschooling my son. He's too important to let "them" ruin his future.
Re:Typical (Score:4, Interesting)
"The ensuing investigation involved a state hazardous materials team, fire and police officials, health officials, environmental officials and code enforcement officials."
I'm reminded of a fireworks shoot I worked 2 years ago. It was raining on and off all day, but the sponsor insisted, despite the contract, that we go on. The fire marshal agreed with us that the situation was unsafe, but he wasn't willing to pull the plug because he didn't want to piss off the county supervisor.
So we shoot, and there is stuff bursting right over our heads because the charges got wet, and going up in the tubes, and blowing up on the ground. But we finish the show in the pouring rain, and then we need to clean up - also in the pouring rain. And we're finding all sorts of unexploded pyro on the ground, but it's dark as 6' up a well diggers ass, so we try our best. We get done at 6:00 AM and then drive back to the magazine to drop off all of the crap that just didn't go off.
Then my boss gets a call from the fire marshal - it seems we missed a 3" ball and a few stars, and he is DEMANDING that we come back and retrieve them (remember, this is the guy who KNEW this was going to happen but didn't have the balls to do his job). Our boss tells him to fuck off and call back when we get some sleep. 2 hours later he calls back - he's called out the BOMB SQUAD to handle it, and that's the last show we'll ever do in this town, blah, blah, blah. Response? "What makes you think we want to come back to your pissant town, you little shit?"
Fast forward to this year - we get the call to do the show again, because last year's went so well! And before the boss could hang up, they say "BTW, everyone involved with last year's fiasco has been fired".
I didn't shoot the show, but I heard it went well.
Regardless, Chemistry still lacking (Score:3, Interesting)
A few posters have noted that there was a fire in the household etc. Regardless, as a kid, I grew up in the "new age" of computers. A Commodore 64 in-hand, I played video games on it and did a bit of programming. I had a huge interest in science. But, like many other kids, were were generally more fortunate than our parents and our toys were more expensive and significantly less educational and a huge was of time: video games and cable TV. No less than straight-A's from grade school to high school.
My father had chemistry sets and Meccano toys when he grew up. I had access to Meccano parts and motors but I grew bored and tired of it. Instead video games and TV.
My father and I are on equal footing in terms of IQ. He's a doctor. I studied in science at university-level but I grew frustrated with Chemistry and Biology simply because it didn't come "naturally". Perhaps that's an excuse. Whatever. Not important to my argument. I think not having chem set was one reason. I don't regret what might have been - I didn't want to be a doctor after all. But, this society is probably turning away a lot of brilliant minds. Banning learning tools - books, chem sets, etc. is a bad, bad move. Maybe I could be an astrophysicist if I'd not had video games and cable TV. If not me, then some other would-be Nobel Prize winner.
So, I think before any governments go banning or raiding people's homes for chemistry sets - whatever the reason - they should consider the effects of this on society and the education system. For parents that *know nothing* about Chemistry, they are not going to buy little Johnny a chemistry set because all the negative attention its getting in the media makes them think he's going to take the house down. See Dihydrogen Monoxide hoax: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dihydrogen_monoxide_hoax [wikipedia.org].
Re:Call the FBI? (Score:2, Interesting)
Hardly irrelevant, there are zoning laws that he broke. While I agree that those laws were vague enough they could potentially apply to just about anyone whats important is that they were broken and the police/government can choose to enforce the laws when they want. I personally don't like vague laws or laws that are only enforced when they want to charge you with something but that's a problem for another day.
Also there's a big difference in intent, having a couple of bottles of drano will and never should be illegal, however I think it's perfectly reasonable to make owning large quantities of explosive chemicals that by them selves have no purpose. Do you really think anyone is making their own household cleaners? If someone really is mixing explosive chemicals together for whatever reason they want I sure as hell don't think they should be doing it less than 100 feet from where my kids are sleeping, and if the neighborhood is zoned for that sort of thing, I'll be moving.
If there's ever a time to use a law it's when a sloppy at best person is keeping and experimenting with large quantities of explosive chemicals. And that's the point one of the reasons for zoning laws is prevent stupid people like this from blowing their family and house up and taking their neighbors with them.
The original poster is being a bit disingenuous (Score:2, Interesting)
There are regulations about how much you're supposed to have, how it's detained, how it's disposed of." Mr. Deeb's home lab likely violated the regulations of many state and local departments, although officials have not yet announced any penalties.
It doesn't sound to me like the law acted because they didn't take chemistry 101. I suspect they acted because, far more than a child's chemistry set, there was a full-blown laboratory in this guy's house where "vessels of chemicals were all over the furniture and the floor." It doesn't sound like very safe or up-to-code setup.
Re:Read Feynmans Auto-Biography? (Score:3, Interesting)
Strictly speaking there were several kids doing it, he wasn't there when the kid blew himself up (well, tore his leg open when the bomb went off, still killed him tho). They regularly built and detonated these bombs.
My point isn't that there shouldn't be punishment, but the simple fact is that doing stuff like that isn't just the sort of thing 'evil' people do. Normal folk and genius's to be do it too.
Re:And they say ... (Score:4, Interesting)
That's true. Not all "Red-state" people are over-religious, or even religious at all. Often they share moral standards, but most often we just share a desire for the government to stay out of our lives!
Yes, we don't want government to tell us that we can't terminate our pregnancies, smoke some marijuana for our cancer, end our own lives painlessly when terminally ill, have a homosexual relationship, call the police on our crazy neighbor with the collection of assault rifles... oh, wait.
Re:Maybe he was just saving his own urine! (Score:5, Interesting)
None of the materials found at 81 Fremont St. posed a radiological or biological risk, according to the state Department of Environmental Protection. No mercury or poison was found. Some of the compounds are potentially explosive, but no more dangerous than typical household cleaning products.
Most people would be really pissed if the had to spend several days in a motel because the fireman found a can of Draino and a bottle of vinegar downstairs in the basement
Re:And they say ... (Score:2, Interesting)
In most areas, the Fire Department is the appropriate responding agency for a Hazardous Materials event. Your regulations are different?
Re:Zoning gone wild. (Score:3, Interesting)
The fact that he had a fire in his AC tells me that all the fumes from his operation were starting to condense in there and then got activated by a spark in the fan motor.
Funny how your studies taint your opinions. I took a bunch of electrical engineering classes in college, and the fact that he had a fire in his AC tells me that his AC got too hot.
Re:And they say ... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:And they say ... (Score:5, Interesting)
In terms of the current rate of acceleration of this trend, according to the Washington Post: [washingtonpost.com]
...
...
Re:I would like a true discussion of this. (Score:3, Interesting)
I worked as an R&D chemist for 20+ years, and can understand why the town would be alarmed. A large scale lab (which it sounds like was in place here) should not be run on a hobby basis. The EPA and OSHA have significant regulatory impact on lab operations including safety and disposal requirements (no you can't just pour it down the drain) which sound like were being completely ignored here. Not to mention the fire department would be very concerned if they were called to a place where they did not know what they were going to be exposed to (exactly what happened here).
As part of my job I was involved in training local fire and rescue teams on hazmat response. Fire departments in particular take this sort of thing VERY seriously, and it was no surprise they acted the way they did when they found this home R&D lab.
Aside from the zoning issues I'd bet this operation was in violation of a large number of EPA and OSHA rules. Some of which could invoke criminal penalties and jail time. If the owner is not getting hit with any of this he should consider himself damn lucky.
Re:And they say ... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:And they say ... (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm a chemistry, by industry, by education and if I saw 1500 vials, jars, cans, bottles and boxes sitting around full of chemistry stuff I'd want some authority to check it out.
If you had said
"I'm a Chemist, by training and profession and if I saw 1500 vials, jars, cans, bottles and boxes improperly stored, full of chemicals I'd want some authority to check it out."
your troll would have been much more effective, especially if you exclude fireman with a bit of hazmat training and building inspectors from being considered an authority.
Re:And they say ... (Score:5, Interesting)
I lived in Houston for 20 years myself, and if you're getting into arguments I somehow get the feeling that *you're* the one picking fights with people who have a different belief system.
Different belief system? You mean delusional bullshit. Sorry to nitpick, but you later refer to said belief systems as bullshit yourself. And sorry, I'm not the kind of person to pick a fight, but when someone attacks my character or spouts a bunch of "Mega-Churchian" Voodoo in my face, I will vigorously defend logic and reason.
You hear a viewpoint grounded in religion or other bullshit and you just *have* to make an issue of it. But then, my college roomate was exactly like that, so maybe I'm just projecting.
Sometimes that's the case, but most of the time it's when somehow I'm targeted personally, directly or indirectly -- it's when someone spouts some "Christian" garbage and everyone else except me is wagging their heads. In that situation, for me at least, to not respond would be to let others think that you believe in the garbage being talked about -- I'm not one of those people.
jdb2
Re:And they say ... (Score:2, Interesting)
The far left (ie: socialists) are actually about increasing freedom and democracy--although the only way to achieve that is to reduce the freedoms of the capitalists (who use their wealth and "ownership" of the means of production to control society in their narrow, short-sighted and selfish interests).
What if socialists are more narrow, short-sighted and selfish than any capitalist in history?
Hell, there ain't no "what if."
Socialists, and the Left in general, are narrow, short-sighted, and the level of hypocrisy attained by their selfishness-for-me-but-not-for-thee attitude requires uncountable infinities to grasp.
Notice that the most hard-core socialists, even back to Robert Owen, are rich, usually through the capitalist hard work of their immediate ancestors. "It is easy to be socialist if you're rich."
Socialism is the ultimate feel-good, spoiled brat belief system. By that, I mean that its purpose is to make spoiled brats feel good about their idiot selves. Instead of making themselves better, they seek to make themselves feel better.
They think they help the poor by taking from the rich and pocketing the cash. "Hate the rich" until you are rich, then target "corporations" until you own them too. The short-sightedness feeds the hypocrisy.
Of course that makes them feel good. All guilt is absolved because their intentions feel good. It's not stealing, it's not selfish, and it feels so good.
That is the narrow view and short-sightedness of the Socialist. Nobody has ever come up with a better way to rationalize pure hedonism - not Caligula, nor Bentham.
Socialism is a parasitic system that can only exist at the sufferance of Capitalism. Socialism produces nothing, moves no goods, adds no value.
Capitalism is the natural extension of trade, and is a human right.
Socialism is crap.
Re:What's the big deal? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Zoning gone wild. (Score:3, Interesting)
My hands can tear off your head. Do you now want to say I can't have hands? My feet can drive your nuts right into your abdomen, rupturing them along the way, destroying your ability to have kids. You want to outlaw my feet? My tree has branches which a high wind can toss through your windows, or I can pick up from the ground and use to whip your face into a bloody mess. You want to outlaw trees? My toilet often contains matter that would qualify as a biological weapon; I could use that against you in any number of unsavory ways. You want to outlaw toilets except in "designated toilet zones"?
What you're doing here is (a) imagining how terrible it would be if someone did "something" you don't like with something else, and (b) outlawing the something else because you have terrified yourself that the something could happen. No crime has been committed, you're outlawing things based on your imagination. It's sick behavior.
If you want to reduce your risk, you should go ahead and do so to the degree you have resources that allow you to get it accomplished. Buy more land; put some space between you and those people you're so terrified of. Build a bunker. Pull the sheets over your head. But if you want to control what *I* do so as to reduce *your* risk, you can go take a long walk off a short pier. If you don't have the resources to reduce your risk, then you don't get to do so.
Property values are always a gamble. For me, and for you. Now, why is it that you think I am supposed to serve as an uncompensated guarantor of your property values at the cost of my liberties? Get back to me on that, would you?
Insurance is, by definition, gambling. You bet amounts of money that something is going to happen; the insurance company takes the bet and pays off if it does. Unless it can get out of it, of course. The rates are based on the odds you have bought into by choosing how and where you live, as well as innumerable other factors like your credit rating, your criminal history, the flood plain, your neighbors, etc. All of these things are a matter of your choice and control at one point or another, and aside from that, it is your choice to gamble in the first place. Now, why *exactly* am I responsible for your gambling habits? Get back to me on that one too. Oh, and don't even go to the "I have a mortgage and am required to have insurance"; that's not my fault or responsibility in any way. You entered into that contract by your own free will. Not my problem. Talk to your bank. And good luck with that.
Oh, brother. Is there some guarantee that the world must look beautiful in your sight? If you want such a guarantee, buy enough of the world that all you can see is yours, and then see to it that it looks like you want it to. Don't tell me what MY part of the world must look like. If you can't afford to buy enough of the world to guarantee what you see is what you want to see, then you get to suffer along with the rest of us, actually seeing what other people do with their little chunks of land. It's terrible, I know, this blatant conjunction of the ideas of actual ownership and freedom. Just sends shivers down your spine, doesn't it?
What abo
Chemicals (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:And they say ... (Score:3, Interesting)
i think that emergency crews would want to turn off the gas and electricity before going very far in fighting a fire. a lot of windows have electrical boxes under or beside, and i sure as hell wouldn't put an ax on live wire. when i was a pup, i drove a 20d nail through the main feed to my house. the fact that it was an estwing is why i can type this, instead of being in a box.
otoh, if they already suspected (many fire and police departments are merged these days) the occupant they may have used a plausible excuse to get around a no warrant situation.
theEddieCurrents (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:And they say ... (Score:3, Interesting)
Anytime there's an electrical fire, the first thing you want to do is to shut off the juice to the circuit. If the A/C was a hardwired unit or it was the outlet itself shorting* (or if the fire prevented them from coming close enough to unplug it) then the circuit breaker is your only option.
SB
* by an odd coincidence I had to replace an A/C outlet that was doing just that - arcing internally - at work this week. Fortunately the tenant was relatively awake and noticed the buzzing sound coming from what he thought was the A/C unit itself.
Re:And they say ... (Score:3, Interesting)
You're exactly right, we pull the meter. And dispatch calls the electric utility and let's them know we did the disconnect so the owner doesn't get charged for it. Digging around trying to find a breaker box is nuts.
But I suppose it's just possible they wanted to check the breaker box or the lines in between. It's still peculiar. We try not to have any more people in a home than necessary. We have a thermal camera that can see through walls, and we image the area of the fire and if there's no evidence of a hot spot we run the smoke ejector a few minutes, check the thermal cam again, pack our gear and go home. We don't poke around in the house, don't spray water if we can use a dry chemical extinguisher and if we have to spray water, we use as little as possible.
The last kitchen fire we had the lady had the water mopped up before we left. Got a little dirt on the living room carpet from the hose but we didn't make a big mess. We've been on mutual aid on calls the other department had their hose open while they were walking through the front door. We don't do that. Why ruin the drywall in the living room for a grease fire in the kitchen?
The question you need to ask yourself is this. (Score:3, Interesting)
How big were these 1500 vials, jars, cans, bottles and boxes.
It could be he had a number of chemicals in boxes he had yet to unpack.
It could be that 1000 of those vials contained less than an ounce of chemical. To me a vial is usually a minute quantity of something, bigger than an ampule and msaller than a jar or bottle.
The second question you need to ask is was this scattered all over the floor, or was it neatly arranged on the floor underneath shelfs (aka furniture). What kind of furniture are we talking about? Tables perhaps? Shelving? Sofa? Chair?
This is a retired chemist. I think it is safe to assume he knows how to handle chemicals. After all, this is a chemist who has managed to survive for decades without blowing himself or Massachussets up. Maybe we should give him a bit more credit than the article. Maybe we should take the articles interviewees with a grain of salt (or heck a whole vial of salt).
However you roll this, it does not bode well for chemistry sets. Fortunately for me, a local science store is well aware of this and builds custom chemistry sets for those in the know. Along with the totally lame commercail ones we see in today's market.
Re:And they say ... (Score:3, Interesting)
Ultimately it's bullshit, any chemistry student, knows not to randomly mix chemicals. And a retired chem prof definitely knows not to. More likely than not, it's less dangerous allowing him to have and use them than it is the general public.
Agreed. My dad could probably, as a knowledgable ham operator, cause all sorts of havok across a wide band of radio with great detriment to emergency services, airports, etc...
But he doesn't. Now retired, he's got the time to experiment with whatever ideas come up, responsibly. He's approaching 65, mentally active, and recently affirmed he'll never stop learning. Similarly, ol' Vic Deeb could research all kinds of ideas, maybe even finding something new and wonderful for our benefit.
I'm getting pretty annoyed with the government taking away our most entertaining/educational toys just because they're afraid we'll poke our eye out.
Re:To finish that joke (Score:2, Interesting)
That can't be right because in SC it is illegal to sell alcohol within 1000 yards of a church. Southern baptists have been known to build churches specifically to have package shops and convenience stores shut down. Yes, it works retroactively.
Re:And they say ... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:And they say ... (Score:2, Interesting)
*Sigh*. I know, but the children are busy having a tantrum. Hopefully once they calm down, they'll RTFA later, and ponder for a second whether they'd like to be living next door to this fellow once they move out of their parents' basements.
Well, the first thing that struck me is that after all the scary talk about proper disposal and such, that they've made no charges, no citations, and thus far have found nothing that he was doing wrong. Heck, they haven't even found anything more dangerous than what's under your sink right now.
My sense is that our chemist friend (and remember folks, he's a *retired* chemist - I think we can spot him a few points in the "not blowing oneself up" skill) is waiting quietly and cooperating while the authorities slowly figure out that they just did an illegal search and seizure.
Re:in other words (Score:2, Interesting)
And regarding your two questions, I don't think that people are interpreting the laws in such a manner. Maybe if you can provide a citation of such an act, as was requested of me (which I then did), I would be more thoroughly impressed? Under the strictest interpretation of the zoning laws, there may be issues. However, as it is written in the laws, there should be a chance to petition for the ability to perform such acts if it is not a threat to the public. If you can please explain to me how flammable / dangerous chemicals (which were discovered due to a fire in his house) are in a similar risk category as programming a microcontroller, that would be great.
To look at this another way, there are codes and regulations for how natural gas lines are hooked up to a house, etc. These safety measures help make sure that the general public is safe. If my neighbor does not build his house to code, it catches fire and damages mine in the act, I think that I would be upset. Similarly, if his fire had spread and come into contact with accelerents and burned down his neighbor's house, I also think that the person would have been upset due to a lack of compliance with zoning laws.
Excuse me while I get back to work. Here in Alaska. Thanks.