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Comments: 188 +-   Liquid Lakes On Saturn's Moon Confirmed on Thursday July 31 2008, @07:39AM

Posted by CmdrTaco on Thursday July 31 2008, @07:39AM
from the time-for-a-saturn-icon dept.
space
Riding with Robots writes "Scientists have been using the robotic spacecraft Cassini to explore what looked to be large lakes of hydrocarbons on the surface of Saturn's planet-sized moon Titan. But they couldn't be entirely sure that the features were actually liquid lakes, and not simply very smooth, solid material. Now, new findings seem to confirm that the observations really do show extensive seas of liquid ethane and other hydrocarbons. In fact, Titan seems to have an entire 'water' cycle of ethane evaporation, rain and rivers."
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  • by dlgeek (1065796) on Thursday July 31 2008, @07:46AM (#24414841)
    FTA: "[T]hese particles form a ubiquitous hydrocarbon haze that hinders the view."
    Sounds just like LA.
    • It is ringed by a dark beach, where the black lake merges with the bright shoreline.

      Sounds more like Jersey if you ask me.

    • Ethane BOILS at -88 C, so skip the zinc oxide and pack some mittens and earmuffs.
        • Heretic! Everyone knows that ethane boils at 212 degrees Ethanheit, just as it freezes at 32 degrees E. 100 E is just a hot day in Titan-Texas.

            • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

              32-212 is equally nonsensical to everybody, except maybe an octopus.

              I think that the Germans [wikipedia.org] would have something to say about that :)

              IIRC, Farenheit used the word "degrees" and thus wasn't worried about a 10-based system. The boiling point of water wasn't known yet, so he used some points that he knew to be constant. Icy salt water (well, ammonium cloride) was known to remain constant, so he used that for zero. Icy pure water was known to remain constant, so he used that for 32. The human body was known to be constant, so he used that for 96. Why he didn't use 0, 1, and 3

  • "This makes Titan the only body in our solar system beyond Earth known to have liquid on its surface."

    i thought venus had molten metal rivers on it's surface. or is it just an uncorfimed hypotesis ?

    anyone more knowledged tham me could please step forward ?

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      No, Venus's surface is a desert. It'd be hard to get a river of metal anyway: only a few metals are liquid on its surface and not even the extremely abundant ones like iron.

      • only a few metals are liquid on its surface and not even the extremely abundant ones like iron.

        Does that mean there are pools of liquid metal, even if there aren't rivers?

      • Actually that makes sense... the heavier metals and minerals that the solid planets (ones having a surface, as opposed to the gas ones) have a lot of would generally tend to be liquids at higher temperatures. (It's not necessarily a rule; mercury is heavy but is liquid at relatively low temperatures for example. For most of the elements it's generally true though.) You wouldn't really expect the farther-out rocky planets to have much of anything in liquid form since they're so cold.

  • Amazing! (Score:5, Interesting)

    by 4D6963 (933028) on Thursday July 31 2008, @07:55AM (#24414951)

    Please tell me that all these rovers on Mars were just there to train for the real thing on Titan.

    No seriously, picture how awesome it would be to explore Titan with rovers. This place is probably the one place in the Solar system that has the most in common with our planet! The fact that it still has rivers and liquid lakes makes it so much more interesting than Mars, plus it has a thick atmosphere (5 times our atmosphere on the surface) we could probably send a UAV there or a blimp.

    • Re:Amazing! (Score:5, Interesting)

      by 4D6963 (933028) on Thursday July 31 2008, @08:05AM (#24415123)

      OK here's my idea of a fancy mission to Titan. Firstly, an orbiter around Titan, with a nice camera and the appropriate filters to see through the atmosphere like Cassini has, but also so radar thing to map the whole thing , even under its liquid lakes, and gather lots of informations about what must be Titan's unusual geology, and that would serve as a relay between Earth and the various machines on Titan. Then a lander, not necessarily a rover but that could be a plus, mainly designed to study the local geology and weather. Then a robot to explore the lakes, their chemistry, eventual currents, their depth.

      And the fanciest part of all, a UAV-carrying blimp. It would float in Titan's thick atmosphere, low enough to be able to carry heavy weights (remember, on Titan a pressure of 1 Earth atmosphere is pretty high above the ground) and cover a lot of ground, provided there's some wind on Titan. It would obviously study the atmosphere, clouds, winds, chemicals composition, temperature etc extensively, but it would also be greatly placed to study the ground from very close. I said UAV-carrying, what would be more fancy than a blimp that would launch tiny UAVs that would fly around taking lots of pictures and measurements to then return to the blimp?

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        Cool idea, but the UAV-carrying aspect of the blimp is an expensive disappointment waiting to happen...imagine how disappointing it would be when one or more of the UAVs crashes, and when you try to fly an autonomous UAV around an alien planet, it will happen, and probably in short order. Also in a thick atmosphere, while the aircraft would need smaller lifting surfaces / lift bags they'd also need to be big and heavy so they won't be blown around like a styrofoam take-out box if there's any wind at all, wh

        • Well maybe the UAV part isn't worth it considered how complicated it would be rather than just a blimp, but on the other hand it doesn't seem that bad. It seems that near the surface winds are weak (around 0.5 m/s, or 1.8 km/h), so it doesn't matter so much if the UAVs get blown around like storyfoam in that case. It seems however that high altitude winds can reach up to 270 mph, which could be used by the blimp to travel large distances.

          I think the main problem is really how to make a UAV/blimp fly in an a

        • Yeah, considering that they have a hard time getting free fall to work right the first time (both Mars and the Moon have a few man-made craters, *wink*), it would be a real trick to build flying machines (either gasbag or wing contraptions) that worked in a very different (and not even fully understood) atmosphere...

          Actually, joking aside, that would be a really interesting job. Since they don't know what the atmosphere is like they'd probably have to give it a pretty decent margin of error and then use som

          • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

            First of all we know Titan's atmosphere way well enough for that (look it up, we're far from completely ignorant about it unlike what you make it out to be), thanks to sending a probe there. And it wouldn't necessarily be hard, it's not because the atmosphere is different that it'd make it hard, it's just a few things about the atmosphere that may make it harder or easier, but there's nothing inherently hard about it.

            Also, I think it might be easier to inflate a blimp during a parachute-slowed decent than t

      • So I guess that then you'd have to stick to a fixed lander, like the one that landed in 2005 except more durable and with more instruments? By the way, why was the Huygens probe even designed to only last a few hours? Or is it all you can get without solar panels?
  • Tidal Lock (Score:5, Interesting)

    by MyLongNickName (822545) on Thursday July 31 2008, @07:57AM (#24414991) Journal

    Does anyone know if Titan is in tidal lock with Saturn? Anyone know if there exists a list of which moons are in tidal lock and which aren't?

  • by Antwerp Atom (1306775) on Thursday July 31 2008, @08:03AM (#24415079) Journal
    Excellent presentation on the moons of Saturn by Carolyn Porco, leader of the Cassini mission imaging team at the 2007 TED conference. (video)
    http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/carolyn_porco_flies_us_to_saturn.html [ted.com]
  • by Sique (173459) on Thursday July 31 2008, @08:11AM (#24415181) Homepage

    Before anyone comes up with the idea to mine the hydrocarbonates on Titan to overcome the oil and energy crisis on Earth, hold your breath!

    The energy necessary to accelerate the mined hydrocarbonates enough to transfer them to Earth is higher than the actual energy equivalent you get by burning the hydrocarbonates. That's because you would have to accelerate the Titan-oil from 9.7 km/sec (orbital speed of Saturn) to 29.7 km/sec (orbital speed of Earth).

    • The energy necessary to accelerate the mined hydrocarbonates enough to transfer them to Earth is higher than the actual energy equivalent you get by burning the hydrocarbonates.

      What about transferring oxygen from Earth to Titan?

      Think about it! On Titan, cars don't need fuel injection, they need oxygen injection.

    • But how much energy would it take to get it into space where we could use it there?

    • I think you would only need to accelerate out of the gravity well of Titan (plus a little more to boost from Titan's orbital speed to Saturn's escape velocity). The rest of the trip is downhill to a parking orbit around the Earth or Moon.

      Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's how it would work.

      Big old sausages full of Titan's Finest, with a few oxygen tanks strapped on, some low power rocket engines, and a good guidance system. Biggest energy drain of the whole trip would be the LEDs that light up the ship's name:

      • No. Not even than. It's a physical barrier, not an economical one. You burn more Earth-oil to haul Titan-oil to Earth than the amount of Titan-oil you actually haul.

        If you have to consume 9 barrel of oil to get 1 barrel of oil, then only a hedgefond or another perverse financial instrument will draw a profit from it. But in the end you just lose 8 barrel of oil.

        • Why would we burn Earth oil to get Titan oil? We go there, we set up the required refineries, we transform the oil locally, and we use it to extract more of itself. Sure, we'll waste 90% of the oil there on extraction and transmission, but in the end, you still get a trickle of oil coming from Titan, which is more than it currently provides, which makes it oil-positive. You have the initial investment cost of getting equipment there, but that's what you should weigh it against -- not in proportion to itself

            • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

              Where are you going to get oxygen to burn the oil with?

              More importantly, Since when do spacecraft BURN Hydrocarbons to provide propulsion?

              I was under the impression that the primary stages of most space-capable rockets were Liquid Hydrogen-Oxygen fueled, with a solid fuel as a secondary booster stage, and then more liquid Hy/Ox fuel for space-based boosting and maneuvers.

              Since when did we start putting V8's in our rockets?

  • by Anonymous Coward

    Anyone else read the headline as:

    Liquid Snake On Saturn's Moon Confirmed

    Oh my god! A new MGS Game!

  • For those not familiar with Ethane [wikipedia.org], it has a boiling point of -86.6 degrees Celsius. Interesting that a moon has cycles in the neighborhood of that temperature range. Though a trip there would make most parts of Antarctica seem like a tropical reprieve.
  • by jollyreaper (513215) on Thursday July 31 2008, @08:40AM (#24415605)

    sgt: Ok, men, wax your boards and hit the surf.

    pvt: Hey, do you think it's safe?

    sgt: Don't worry, Geeblort don't surf!

  • by Anonymous Coward
    I thought we've always had beaten into our heads that hydrocarbons, and oil and gas in particular were the result of decaying biomass from dinosaurs. So, where did these hydrocarbons come from? Was Titan an outpost for some spacefaring dino species, that got wiped out in a strange intergalactic plague? Or is there a much more sane, reasonable answer that I just haven't seen yet?
    • The hydrocarbons are pretty simple relative to organically-produced ones. You get the more complicated ones on Titan by photo-chemical reactions in the atmosphere. (UV from the Sun breaks bonds which recombine in new and exciting ways.)

    • > I thought we've always had beaten into our heads that hydrocarbons, and oil and gas in particular were the result of decaying biomass from dinosaurs. So, where did these hydrocarbons come from? Was Titan an outpost for some spacefaring dino species, that got wiped out in a strange intergalactic plague? Or is there a much more sane, reasonable answer that I just haven't seen yet?

      Q: Ethane on Titan comes from:

      A. The decayed, compressed remains of Titanic Dinosaurs.
      A: Xenu dropped his dinosauroid enemies into volcanos on Titan.
      B: The devil planted it there to trick us
      C: Solar radiation hits Methane (CH4), splitting it into (CH3+H), which quickly recombines into Ethane (C2H6)

  • A consortium of Exxon/Shell/BP/Haliburton have formed the Hydrocarbon Orbital Recovery - Exterra Partners, know as HORE Partners, to being planning for recover of the Titan resources.

  • The whole "USA invade SATuRn for OiL" thing gets tiring after a while. What are the real chances of a form of life on Titan?

    According to TFA the lakes seem to be a mixture of ethane, methane and other hydrocarbons. From what I've read, he general consensus is that life requires a liquid solvent that can dissolve a vast amount of materials, such as water or ammonia. It seems that ammonia ices and water ices have been ruled out on the surface, leaving only the frozen and non frozen areas of hydrocarbons.

    Given

    • Chemistry (Score:3, Interesting)

      All the articles mention ethane being the product of methane "broken" by sunlight, it is actually methane CH4 having it's H knocked away by a sunlight reaction to make a methyl CH3 radical and joining with another CH3 to make ethane C2H6. I guess you can call that "broken" into ethane.

      Given that the above reaction has a byproduct of H*, I guess there is an open question if it can somehow combine with the Nitrogen. For example, if you have some natural process of natural Nitrogen fixation (breaking the tri

    • And here we thought the Alaska Pipeline was expensive.... Imagine the stretch on THAT hose?
    • There's our chance to lower the gas price and test if the Global warming is a myth. Import it from Saturn.

      What? Are you saying you want to try to burn ethane gas instead of gasoline? I guess you could, though I wouldn't want to be anywhere near ethane storage if a leak was suspected - mixtures of 3% ethane in atmospheric air can be explosive.
      And of course that's ignoring how much energy and money would be expended to try to bring it to earth from Saturn.

      On another tought, how about a refuelling station there for space exploration ?

      Are you planning to burn the ethane? If so, then you would still need to bring oxygen with you, as there might not be any of it there. Unless you want to

      • I guess you could, though I wouldn't want to be anywhere near ethane storage if a leak was suspected - mixtures of 3% ethane in atmospheric air can be explosive.

        Ethane is part of natural gas, and was burned along with the methane for a long time. Now they take it out because it is valuable, not because it is hazardous. A leak would just vent, since it's lighter than air. Propane scares the hell out of me, especially when I see it inside.

    • Re:goody (Score:4, Insightful)

      by IAAE (1302511) on Thursday July 31 2008, @08:07AM (#24415141)

      Other than burning hydrocarbons, what would you do with them?

      TFA says that theres methane, ethane and other light hydrocarbons. You can make CFCs, HCFCs, HFCs and that kind of fun stuff with methane and ethane, but to make polymers you need ethylene or other hydrocarbons with double or triple bonds.

      It probably wouldn't be feasible to transport hydrocarbons from Titan back to Earth for consumption here, the energy costs alone would be astronomical; that and the whole climate change and tendancy to move away from hydrocarbons... The only thing I can see this being "useful" for is if we wanted a "refueling station" in space where we could just load up a spaceship with what is essentially natural gas. The only problem would be finding oxygen to combust it with...

      • by postermmxvicom (1130737) on Thursday July 31 2008, @08:22AM (#24415349)
        "the energy costs alone would be astronomical" ba dum tis [instantrimshot.com]
      • The only thing I can see this being "useful" for is if we wanted a "refueling station" in space where we could just load up a spaceship with what is essentially natural gas. The only problem would be finding oxygen to combust it with...

        ... hellooo... cloud mining Saturn. The obvious discovered!

    • This is the official official thread. All other threads should post under this one if they want to be official. Please post here to avoid contaminating the jokes with non-funny comments.

      Thank you and good day sirs!

        • The first manned mission to Titan ended tragically today as one of the astronauts stepped out onto the surface and lit up a cigarette.

          You'd need oxygen for that.

    • by gsslay (807818) on Thursday July 31 2008, @09:24AM (#24416323)

      Not "invade". Sheesh, keep to the script why dontcha?!

      Act 1: Locate & Destroy Secret Inter-planetary WMDs
      Act 2: Er, forget that, we never said that, we meant; Liberate oppressed Saturnians
      Act 3: Confuse Saturn For Something Jupiter Did - Meh, they're all gas-giants aren't they?
      Act 4: Ooh, fancy that, you have oil? That we did not know.
      Act 5: Damn Ungrateful Tentacle-heads

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