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Math Space Science

The Accidental Astrophysicists 97

An anonymous reader recommends a ScienceNews story that begins: "Dmitry Khavinson and Genevra Neumann didn't know anything about astrophysics. They were just doing mathematics, like they always do, following their curiosity. But five days after they posted one of their results on a preprint server, they got an email that said 'Congratulations! You've proven Sun Hong Rhie's astrophysics conjecture on gravitational lensing!'... Turns out that when gravity causes light rays to bend, it can make one star look like many. But until Khavinson and Nuemann's work, astrophysicists weren't sure just how many. Their proof in mathematics settled the question."
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The Accidental Astrophysicists

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  • Cross-Disciplines! (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 16, 2008 @10:44PM (#23818195)
    Mathematically, this is the first post.

    And isn't that wonderful, that our sciences are so wide in breadth that one discipline may hold answers to other disciplines' questions?

    And much much better is that someone in another discipline is willing to look across those divisions to see an answer that might have gone unremarked.
  • Re:Further proof ... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by TerranFury ( 726743 ) on Monday June 16, 2008 @11:14PM (#23818393)

    I think the role of math as "leading" is oversold. I get the impression that a heck of a lot of math was inspired by physics. It seems as though the two develop in tandem. In particular, vector calc and E&M come to mind.

    It can also be argued that philosophy is more basic than math. Some might say that we need our ontologies and epistemologies before we can do calculations involving them.

  • by techno-vampire ( 666512 ) on Monday June 16, 2008 @11:21PM (#23818453) Homepage
    There's something I don't understand here. If n > 1, the number of images is 5n-5, or 5(n-1). As n must be an integer (You can't have a fraction of a massive object.) that means that the number of images must be a multiple of 5. And yet, there's a picture of a set of 4 images of a quasar in the article. Not only that, somebody links to the Wikipedia article on gravitational lensing, and that shows a picture of an "Einstein Cross:" four images of a quasar surrounding a galaxy between it and us. Four, in both cases, not five. Yes, I realize that in both cases n = 1, but can anybody explain how you end up with four in that case?
  • Re:Suprise! (Score:5, Interesting)

    by NoobixCube ( 1133473 ) on Monday June 16, 2008 @11:41PM (#23818573) Journal
    I agree that String Theory is hardly a theory. I call it String Musing, since all it is is thought experiments and possibilities. However, if we ignore it entirely, then there will never be any experimental evidence of it. Right now it's nothing but a mathematical curiosity, but there is no way of telling, from today's perspective based on today's knowledge, what may come of this mathematical curiosity in the future. I'm not a supporter of String Theory (not that my support would matter anyway, since my knowledge of physics is everything from highschool plus whatever I'm curious about at the time), but more research is required before we can dismiss it outright.
  • Re:Further proof ... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by east coast ( 590680 ) on Monday June 16, 2008 @11:54PM (#23818665)
    Mathematics is a common language between the sciences. I don't see any need to debate it from there.
  • Re:Further proof ... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by someone300 ( 891284 ) on Monday June 16, 2008 @11:57PM (#23818679)
    I wouldn't say so. Mathematics is a set of rules and axioms, but you need physics to help design the set of rules that is useful for modelling real life. You could design a custom mathematical system to be however you want and still be self-consistent, but be completely non-useful for questions involving reality.

    Generally things like propositional logic and the axioms of mathematics are held to be self-evident physically. However, some things were thought to be mathematically self evident until physicists proved that they either weren't always true or that they depend on the universe in some way, Euclidian Geometry for example.

    Then as the GP states, some people argue that maths is a subset of philosophy. Indeed, some people argue the other way around too.

    My belief is that they are all interrelated fields that when combined can be used to answer questions about reality, but when studied individually can be interesting nevertheless (and sometimes even useful).
  • Re:Further proof ... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by AstrumPreliator ( 708436 ) on Tuesday June 17, 2008 @01:44AM (#23819255)
    The way things look to a mathematician are probably different than the way things look to a physicist which are also probably different than the way things look to everyone else. I'm in the first group, so my opinions may be biased here =).

    Firstly I don't think there are any absolutes, sometimes math and physics develop in tandem and other times there's a lag time with one or the other leading. I personally think math "leads" the way. Not because it wants to describe the physical world but because it's interesting. Just remember that the math you learn in high school is hundreds of years old, you don't get to the current stuff until grad school. Whereas a physicist uses math as his tool to achieve his goal and will only invent a new tool if his toolbox is insufficient, a mathematician creates new tools just because he wants to understand them. In other words the goal of a mathematician is to make to tools, the goal of a physicist is to apply the tools. That's personally why I think math is "leading" most of the time. I'd rather not get into naming specifics examples as there are millions and I don't believe anyone could win that argument.

    As far as math being a subset of philosophy I'll have to disagree; I think they are inexorably linked but neither proper subsets. They share the same grammar, logic, but differ in their dictionaries.

    Those are just my thoughts on the matter though.
  • Re:Suprise! (Score:3, Interesting)

    by CorSci81 ( 1007499 ) on Tuesday June 17, 2008 @01:47AM (#23819293) Journal
    I'm not really debating the usefulness of string theory, I'm just pointing out the lag time between "curiousity" math being done and a use being found. Whether or not string theory is useful is something only time will tell. Plenty of other physics theories hung around for decades before some evidence one way or another was established. I'm content to give it time and just enough funding to find out if it's just mathematical masturbation or something with real legs.
  • Re:Further proof ... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by kmac06 ( 608921 ) on Tuesday June 17, 2008 @03:40AM (#23819921)
    An interesting observation is that imaginary numbers are completely unnecessary (but of course quite useful) for most engineering (e.g., signal processing). It is only in quantum mechanics that imaginary numbers are necessary to describe something physical.
  • Re:Further proof ... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by MindStalker ( 22827 ) <mindstalker@@@gmail...com> on Tuesday June 17, 2008 @09:19AM (#23822191) Journal
    Yep, if you change Sociology to Philosophy you get a complete circle.

    Philosophy -> Physiology -> Biology -> Chemistry -> Physics -> Math -> Philosophy ->
  • Re:Suprise! (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Secret Rabbit ( 914973 ) on Tuesday June 17, 2008 @04:57PM (#23829993) Journal
    See my comment to CorSci81 above.

    Also, String "theory" doesn't have something very *very* important in it. Or at least by its nature it isn't in it. That being a "big bang". Quantum Loop Gravity has one of those in it *by the very nature of Quantum Loop Gravity*. /Also/, falsifiability is a REQUIREMENT of any physical theory. If a theory doesn't have the possibility of being falsified, then it isn't a theory.

    """
    Knowledge of this reality is gradually percolating through the physics establishment. Give it time.
    """

    Wrong. Knowledge of this has been known in the physics establishment for a long *long* time. It's just that the funding, etc isn't done by the physics establishment. But, rather by administrators that are easily swayed by String "theory's" nasty PR campaign. But, the lack of results has lead even that to not hold as much sway any more. Luckly...

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