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Biotech Science

President Bush Signs Genetic Nondiscrimination Act 527

artemis67 writes "This past week, President Bush signed the Genetic Information Nondiscrimination Act (GINA), which would prevent health insurers and employers from discriminating against individuals on the basis of their genetic information. GINA is the first and only federal legislation that will provide protections against discrimination based on an individual's genetic information in health insurance coverage and employment settings.'"
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President Bush Signs Genetic Nondiscrimination Act

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  • by nurb432 ( 527695 ) on Monday May 26, 2008 @01:15PM (#23546063) Homepage Journal
    Sure you can legislate that you cant discriminate but if your employer or insurance company has access at all, they can just 'backdoor' you out the door.

    ( and no i didn't read it, it would be to large to wade thru on a holiday weekend )
  • by hyades1 ( 1149581 ) <hyades1@hotmail.com> on Monday May 26, 2008 @01:20PM (#23546117)

    I tend to look on such legislation as likely to have the reverse effect to the one stated, because it is frequently written to provide cover, loopholes and exceptions for the powerful, well-connected industries it is supposed to govern.

    And even with the best of intentions, it often has the effect of limiting an individual's rights to whatever is covered at the time, regardless of scientific and technological advances that can render such rights and protections woefully obsolete.

  • by kaltkalt ( 620110 ) on Monday May 26, 2008 @01:25PM (#23546187)
    Exactly! Most people simply can't get beyond the happy-sounding name (which usually involves "Children/s") of the bill (which is why they do that). Who could possibly be against something called the PATRIOT Act? Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act? That sounds good! Digital Millennium Copyright Act? Sounds good, a new copyright act for a new digital millennium! Yay! If this law didn't help insurance companies at the expense of the insured, Bush would veto the fuck out of it.
  • About Time (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Jane Q. Public ( 1010737 ) on Monday May 26, 2008 @01:28PM (#23546219)
    As much as I hate the current situation in which the insurance industry has had far too much power over healthcare, this legislation was absolutely necessary for our society to continue to function in anything like a normal way as genetic information becomes more commonplace.

    As for loopholes, we the public must start an intolerable outcry the moment we hear of any such pending. This needs to be an across-the-board absolute, not a political game.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 26, 2008 @01:30PM (#23546249)
    Now we just need another that prevents asshats from doing this [heraldtribune.com].
  • by hyperz69 ( 1226464 ) on Monday May 26, 2008 @01:43PM (#23546385)
    We need protection though from other forms of medical discrimination. Banning the Archaic BMI would be a good start. Limiting pre-existing conditions. Its amazing the things that will still get you disqualified. A yeast infection and even too many pimples as a kid... More needs to be done. I will take this small victory though.
  • by msauve ( 701917 ) on Monday May 26, 2008 @01:49PM (#23546465)
    I'm sure his primary reason is because there is no Consitutional authority for this sort of thing, in general.

    But the reason none of them should have supported this is that the result can and will drive up the cost of health care for everyone.

    If someone knows they are genetically disposed to malady "x", there is now a law which guarantees that they can get insurance coverage at the same price as someone who is at less risk. What does Congress expect them to do, not take advantage of that fact? If insurance companies can't set pricing based on full knowledge and actuarial statistics, but people can, it will increase costs.

    Finally, why shouldn't people at greater risk pay more? Discrimination is not necessarily a bad thing. People discriminate all the time - employers discriminate by choosing more skilled workers over less skilled ones, consumers tend to discriminate against higher priced retailers, the President discriminates against the proles by shutting down traffic as his motocade makes it's way though a city. (Well, maybe that last one is bad discrimination).

    In fact, this law discriminates against those who are at less risk for genetically identifiable diseases, by forcing them to pay higher insurance rates than they otherwise would.
  • by no-body ( 127863 ) on Monday May 26, 2008 @01:54PM (#23546513)
    In essence, it's hogwash!

    If you apply for insurance and on the phone the rep tells you that you can't have insurance because they are not taking applications right now from your zip code area/state (or some other "good" reason) when he sees information on a screen about you not to be insuarable - are you having any leverage to sue because of DNA discrimination, not even to talk about financial resources?

    The US health insurance system is totally hosed. It is based on profit maximazing of individual insurance companies and not broad risk distribution as in other countries. If an insurance company finds a means to increase profit, they will do so - fat chance that this will change anytime soon as long as the polititians sell their soul for money to get elected and stay in "power".
  • by Aaron_Pike ( 528044 ) on Monday May 26, 2008 @01:58PM (#23546545) Homepage
    Isn't the whole point of insurance to spread the risk evenly? Wouldn't paying more if you're more at risk defeat the purpose of insurance in the first place?
  • by Martin Blank ( 154261 ) on Monday May 26, 2008 @02:06PM (#23546619) Homepage Journal
    But the reason none of them should have supported this is that the result can and will drive up the cost of health care for everyone.

    How does it change the status quo? Insurers have been working on the basis of averages without genetic information for a very long time. There are factors driving up the cost of healthcare, but a lack of access to genetic information doesn't seem to be a major one.
  • by bjourne ( 1034822 ) on Monday May 26, 2008 @02:15PM (#23546695) Homepage Journal

    That's the most fucked up reasoning written on slashdot in a long time. How is someone able to take advantage of being more likely to carry a genetic disease? Why should someone born with a genetic disorder have pay premium for something that is absolutely out of their control?

    Being able to aquire medical care when in need is a basic human right. If you don't like that fact, then there are plenty of third world countries you can ove to where the evil state won't "steal" your money to provide health care for the sick.

  • by pesho ( 843750 ) on Monday May 26, 2008 @02:16PM (#23546715)
    Your argument puts the idea of the insurance on its head and thus makes no sense. If you are concerned about discrimination against healthy people, you should argue for dismantling the health insurance system altogether. This way everybody would pay the exact cost of the healthcare services they use. Besides there is a very good scientific reason not to descriminate. We can't conclude defenitevly that a particular mutation is 'bad'. For example mutations causing betha-thalassemia are protective against malaria. Having genetic diversity is more beneficial for the population as a whole, than having what someone would percieve as 'healthy' genes.
  • "can afford to drive" and "can afford to travel" have nothing to do with each other. Americans have spent fifty years developing the idea that traveling alone is normal. It is not. Get on a damn train or bus, or carpool. 13MPG is pretty awesome if you have 12+ people in the vehicle.
  • by Fjandr ( 66656 ) on Monday May 26, 2008 @02:22PM (#23546777) Homepage Journal
    Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but are you saying you think there shouldn't be limitations on pre-existing conditions?

    Not that I support the state of the insurance industry, or even anything close to it, but if all the people with severe problems could be guaranteed acceptance for medical insurance it would bankrupt the entire industry. No more health insurance for anyone.

    This is a statement coming from someone who would benefit an extraordinary amount from a lack of such limitations, and I still think it's an atrocious idea.

    Personally, I'd like to see states require that insurers of any kind operate as NFPs.
  • Actually, I just rethought my position a bit. What is fundamentally wrong with hiring policies that prohibit smoking? Again, I'm a smoker, and I really can't see much wrong with the idea.

    You can't compare this to genetic discrimination. People have no say in what genes they're born with, but they most certainly have a say in whether they choose to engage in behaviors that drive up healthcare costs.

    Maybe the answer would be to charge higher insurance premiums for such behaviors, maybe it's something else. But it's definitely not on par with genetic discrimination.
  • No.. (Score:4, Insightful)

    by msauve ( 701917 ) on Monday May 26, 2008 @02:34PM (#23546913)
    the point of insurance is to share equal risk (to the extent that risks can be known). When some class of participant is allowed to tilt the odds in their favor, others lose.
  • by msauve ( 701917 ) on Monday May 26, 2008 @02:38PM (#23546967)
    is that individuals now have reasonably priced genetic tests available to them, which they can take advantage of to tilt the odds. Insurers will now have to assume that anyone who purchases insurance for a disease for which genetic tests can show an increased risk, is in fact at increased risk of that disease. This unjustly discriminates against those at low risk for that disease, by forcing them to subsidize those at increased risk. Worst case, the coverage simply becomes unavailable, so no one benefits.
  • by superwiz ( 655733 ) on Monday May 26, 2008 @02:47PM (#23547065) Journal
    Now that discrimination is illegal on the books, one cannot use privacy concerns as a legitimate reason for withholding this information. It will now be demanded under all kinds of security concerns. In the end it will be used for the purposes of discrimination in the wink-wink-nudge-nudge manner. But hey, the Civil Rights Act ended racism, right? It didn't prolong it by another 50 years by drawing a legal distinction between races. This belief that the government can force egalitarianism is how the West is choosing fall. Oh, well. Life will go on. We are not equal other than in the eyes of the creator (if you believe in such a thing). We certainly are not equal in the eyes of the fellow human beings with whom we associate. To create a law that pretends that an untruth is true is to make all laws absurd. It undermines and thus destroys the legal system. But hey, the right-hemisphere-people rejoice. I fail to see why slashdot should join them.
  • by themushroom ( 197365 ) on Monday May 26, 2008 @02:48PM (#23547087) Homepage
    This only if you were actually born. There's still extreme prejudice from on high if you're a fetus or stem cell.
  • by NIckGorton ( 974753 ) * on Monday May 26, 2008 @03:16PM (#23547335)

    What is fundamentally wrong with hiring policies that prohibit smoking?
    Because tobacco addiction is a disease. I'm a non-smoking, tobacco-hating, asthmatic physician, and I find the idea of hiring policies that prohibit smokers to be as repulsive as refusing to hire someone with diabetes. If there is some compelling reason that a smoker can't safely do it (childcare for a kid with CF,) great. Otherwise its discrimination. Its also a bad precedent for employment discrimination based on what one does on his off time. You want to drink like a fish or smoke a doobie on your off time? As long as you always show up for work sober, that's your business

    That said, prohibiting smoking on the job is perfectly OK.... just as requiring drinkers to show up sober is reasonable.

    You can't compare this to genetic discrimination.
    Yes you can, since we know there are genes that predispose to tobacco addiction. The ultimately cruel joke though is that recently we discovered that one of the same genes that is linked to tobacco addiction is also linked to propensity to develop lung cancer.
  • by NIckGorton ( 974753 ) * on Monday May 26, 2008 @03:18PM (#23547365)
    We hate asshats like him too, if that is any consolation.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 26, 2008 @03:19PM (#23547373)

    Actually, I just rethought my position a bit. What is fundamentally wrong with hiring policies that prohibit smoking? Again, I'm a smoker, and I really can't see much wrong with the idea.
    If they want to prohibit smoking at the site, I'm in full support of that. However, I strongly disagree with a company telling you what you can do in your own time.

    From 9am-5pm, follow company policy. What someone does from 5pm to 9am is their own damn business.

    First this will start with smoking. Then they'll discriminate on how you eat, then if you exercise, etc.

    For the record, I don't smoke and am mostly vegetarian (I eat eggs and fish occasionally).
  • Adverse selection (Score:5, Insightful)

    by rgoldste ( 213339 ) on Monday May 26, 2008 @03:23PM (#23547409)
    I just finished teaching a bioethics course at Harvard College and we studied this topic in detail; it was one of the questions on the final exam. I am convinced that this is a well-intentioned but bad law.

    The problem with this law is that it creates adverse selection in health insurance. Health insurers won't be able to get genetic info on the people they're covering, but the people themselves will. That creates asymmetric information, and is ripe for abuse. Think about it: if I get my DNA sequenced and find out that I'm a walking health hazard, then I'll buy the most comprehensive policy out there. If I find out I'm genetically clear, I scale down my coverage, or drop it completely. Meanwhile, the insurer can't adjust my premium to accurately reflect my risk. The result: only genetically unhealthy (and risk-averse) people will buy into health insurance pools, or the genetically health will only buy insurance for physical accidents. And when the insurance pools are small, and the insurers can't accurately price risk, they pools collapse: nobody gets health insurance.

    Of course, the obvious alternative--let both buyers and sellers of health insurance use DNA analysis to accurately price risk--is unpalatable because people will suffer from higher premiums through no fault of their own (i.e. because they have bad genes), and people will benefit through no effort of their own (i.e. because they have good genes). This concern (coupled with privacy concerns) is why GINA passed overwhelmingly, and I don't mean to diminish it.

    Insurance works best when the risks aren't ascertainable in an individual case but are ascertainable in the aggregate. DNA sequencing really threatens the concept of health insurance, because it greatly decreases the uncertainty surrounding an individual's health future. The best way to keep insurance alive is to insure before it is possible to determine a person's health risk. Now, you could do that by banning DNA testing for individuals unless they are willing to permanently waive their ability to buy or modify their health insurance policies, but DNA testing is so cheap that the ban will be hard to enforce, and a permanent waiver seems rather harsh. You could require people to buy insurance for their kids before conception, but that has the same problem that the kid will be stuck with the same health insurance for ever (and that there might not be a kid in sad circumstances)

    The ultimate, fool-proof solution: social gene insurance. Essentially, when any private insurer wants to charge you more than the base rate because of your genes, you just pay the base rate and society picks up the difference. The gene insurance would be funded through taxes, much like social security is now, though none of that "lockbox" BS. Socialized health insurance would work, too, being a superset of social gene insurance. The idea behind social insurance schemes is that they in effect force citizens to buy in before anyone has any knowledge of their genetic risk, making it a sound insurance product. And the solution works from the view of liberal theories of justice, e.g. Rawls, because it is essentially a redistribution of social resources from those who happen to be born with (and hence do not deserve) such resources to those who happen to be dealt a bad hand, through no fault of their own.
  • by Pantero Blanco ( 792776 ) on Monday May 26, 2008 @03:28PM (#23547449)

    P.S. No, they did not discover the gene for making stupid racist remarks, which forced Dr. Watson into retirement last year.


    "All our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours â" whereas all the testing says not really."

    "There is no firm reason to anticipate that the intellectual capacities of peoples geographically separated in their evolution should prove to have evolved identically. Our wanting to reserve equal powers of reason as some universal heritage of humanity will not be enough to make it so."

    Watson was forced into retirement for saying that wanting everyone to be "equal" doesn't make them so. Of course, the moment that the POSSIBILITY of any inherent inequality is brought up, any rational debate is impossible because no one wants to consider it.

    It's the secular equivalent of heresy. The mob isn't interested in disproving what was said; they simply want to silence or destroy the person saying it.
  • Yes... (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 26, 2008 @03:33PM (#23547491)
    The point of insurance is to spread the risk evenly...over time, not over people. We just use pools of people as buffers for the variation in payout over time.

    The insurance industry has become more and more of a problem as more and more people have started misunderstanding its purpose. Insurance is for events that are hard to predict when they will happen or at what cost. An example of this misunderstanding is when people want insurance to pay for periodic checkups.

    Don't get me wrong above: I'm not saying that the insurance industry has been perfect. I'm just saying that the real problem is the shift in expectations from insurance away from what it was designed for.
  • by NIckGorton ( 974753 ) * on Monday May 26, 2008 @03:33PM (#23547493)
    Just pass a law that says health insurance companies can't discriminate for any reason. There has to be a community rate for health insurance (like there was 50 years ago.)

    Then we can say just mandate that everyone has to carry individual coverage so we solve the uninsured problem. Plus we would insure that the young and healthy were in the pool - thus keeping the overall rates down.

    Of course it would be a lot easier to deduct it from people's paychecks rather than have a whole system whereby we monitor citizen's compliance with the law. So it would just be an amount deducted from your pay.

    And we would need to make it something people who were poor could afford, so there would be subsidies so that the poor paid less... and the wealthy paid proportionately more. So it would be a progressive deduction from your taxes.

    Plus we could save a LOT if in addition to providing preventative care instead of what we do (ER care as a last ditch effort when diseases are harder and more costly to treat) we got rid if the thousands of insurance providers and just had one large provider. I know as a physician I spend a lot of money on hiring people just to fill out insurance forms for me. If there was one form that was consistent, I would be able to provide care a lot more economically. And if everyone was in the same system, we would have better assurance that the care would be reasonable since the people with the most power would also have to have that same insurance... no way to make what the poor get be shoddy. So we would just cover everyone under one large pool.

    And then.... well we'd have the most humane and cost effective system possible: a single payer national health service funded by an income tax spread fairly on the population. Or as the nutters refer to: socialized medicine.

    Gasp!
  • by NIckGorton ( 974753 ) * on Monday May 26, 2008 @03:37PM (#23547517)

    The point of insurance is not to spread risk. The point of insurance is to mitigate the consequences of negative outcomes for the insured. Having car insurance doesn't spread the risk of having a car accident out among the insured, it mitigates the consequences for people who do have crashes.
    The risk one is spreading is the financial risk, not the risk of getting sick. Similarly, having car insurance doesn't decrease the risk you will get in a wreck, it just spreads out the financial risk to any one person should they be the unlucky sod who gets in that wreck.
  • by EsJay ( 879629 ) on Monday May 26, 2008 @03:45PM (#23547635)
    The "gene insurance" sounds like an invite for case-by-case courtroom battles over what is "genetic".

    Jeebus. Insure the population as a whole. Reap the premiums. Pay reasonable and accepted prices. Charge users for average overall cost. Profit [as a society].

    The USA is behind the rest of the industrialized world in life expectancy and overall health. Perhaps we should change our ways.
  • by iago-vL ( 760581 ) on Monday May 26, 2008 @03:49PM (#23547677)

    I think this post, more than any other, called for: [citation needed].

  • by Khyber ( 864651 ) <techkitsune@gmail.com> on Monday May 26, 2008 @03:51PM (#23547711) Homepage Journal
    TOBACCO ADDICTION IS NOT A DISEASE. Results of tobacco addiction, like emphysema, lung cancer, THOSE are diseases. Addiction is a precursor, and nothing more.
  • by tsm_sf ( 545316 ) on Monday May 26, 2008 @04:05PM (#23547837) Journal

    it's a stupid ignorant filthy habit people with no will power do.

    people can quit.
    Which is it?
  • by mewsenews ( 251487 ) on Monday May 26, 2008 @04:10PM (#23547881) Homepage
    Wouldn't paying more if you're more at risk defeat the purpose of insurance in the first place?

    No. If you choose to drive a vehicle with more risk of being stolen, the insurance company charges you more to be insured. You've assumed a voluntary risk and the insurance company dings you.

    When you sign up for life insurance, if you're a 63 year old smoker you won't get as favourable rates as if you were a healthy 18 year old.

    The part that makes people uncomfortable about genetic discrimination is the eugenic angle. Nobody is able to control the genes that they are born with, and discriminating against groups of people based on factors beyond their control is usually a pretty crappy thing to do.
  • by WebCowboy ( 196209 ) on Monday May 26, 2008 @04:13PM (#23547905)
    The article you reference is about a proposed ban on hiring smokers for government jobs in Sarasota county. It is indeed a colossally dumb idea as proposed because it is not practical to enforce and the benefits of fewer sick days taken or lower claims is considerably smaller than the lost opportunities to hire the most qualified people. However I am firmly in support of the ability to "discriminate against smokers".

    In fact, it is (rightly) common practice amongst medical and home insurance providers already to charge extra premiums to policy holders who smoke, and to deny coverage/claims to those who falsely declare themselves non-smokers in cases where smoking is at the root cause of the claim. That is the way it should be, and there should be no law preventing individuals or institutions from continuing the practice.

    It is not inconsistent to support something like GINA and also support the freedom to discriminate in favour of non-smokers because the latter is a lifestyle choice, and the former, GINA, in my opinion is at its heart an update of laws against racial discrimination.

    People aren't born with cigarettes in their mouths, and not only are we not forced to smoke, we have been told for decades that smoking is an unhealthy lifestyle choice that's best not even started. I cannot comprehend why anyone in this day and age would want to start up a smoking habit knowing what a totally stupid idea it is. Smokers deserve to pay more for (or be denied) insurance and pay a large "stupid tax" on tobacco. I think it is their right to be stupid and do stupid things, but I also believe that those who exercise their right to do stupid, destructive things should bear the full responsibility to cover the costs incurred.

    Conversely, in this day and age, we know a lot about genetics to predict, to some degree of accuracy, if we are pre-disposed to health issues, yet we are quite far from being able to reliably create genetically perfect beings yet. In short, it is impossible for us to make any significant choices in our genetic makeup. In that respect discrimination based on genetic markers is on par with discrimination based on gender or race, so GINA is right in line with the spirit of the US constitution.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 26, 2008 @04:19PM (#23547947)
    The point of insurance is to spread the risk for each individual over a longer period of time. Instead of risking the small chance of having to spend 50K in case something bad happens to your health, you will pay a flat fee, and in the 10% chance that you do get sick, you come out saving. If you don't end up getting sick and collecting, you don't lose nearly as much as you otherwise could have.

    From a cost-benefit point of view, insurance isn't profitable for the people paying for it. It is profitable for the insurance companies. That's why they are able to exist under a capitalist system. If you have a 20% chance of getting sick instead of a 10% chance, the insurance company should have the right to charge you more, because they expect you on average (the mode is still near zero, but the mean is significantly higher) to be collecting more back from them.

    Spreading everybody's risk to the collective instead of to the individuals is usually referred to as "socialism", not "insurance". I'm personally not a fan.
  • by flyingsquid ( 813711 ) on Monday May 26, 2008 @04:46PM (#23548193)
    I tend to favor the opinion of professionals over some random jerkoff on the internet. If you've studied the issue for more than a decade and also have a legitimate reason for going against the consensus of your peers, I'd love to hear it.

    Whether or not nicotine addiction is a disease is completely irrelevant. The issue is control and choice. Tobacco users had control and made a choice which led to them becoming nicotine addicts.

    Saying "I shouldn't be discriminated against, because addiction is a disease!" is bullshit. It may be a disease, but you gave it to yourself because of your poor life decisions. It's like deliberately injecting yourself with the Ebola virus, getting Ebola, and then saying "it's not my fault I have Ebola symptoms! I have a disease! Don't discriminate against me!" It's like deliberately mixing radioactive waste into your food, getting radiation poisoning, and saying "It's not my fault! I have a disease!" And back in the 1950s you could (legitimately) plead innocence, but anyone who took up smoking after 1980 knew exactly what they were getting themselves into.

    Comparing tobacco users to people with inherited disorders is bullshit. Tobacco users have a disease, if that's what you want to call it, because they made a stupid decision. A person with hemophilia inherited defective genes. One has a disorder because of something under their control, their decision to smoke. The other has a disorder because of something completely out of their control, the mixture of genes they inherited from their parents.

  • by jgarra23 ( 1109651 ) on Monday May 26, 2008 @04:47PM (#23548197)

    I tend to favor the opinion of professionals over some random jerkoff on the internet.
    If you've studied the issue for more than a decade and also have a legitimate reason for going against the consensus of your peers, I'd love to hear it.

    Perfectly valid point. Now I don't need a decade of assumed "experience" trying to justify something I know not to be true but you still have not explained why you will BLINDLY believe something. Like the other posters I believe a citation would be required to back such a claim up. In fact, we can play your silly little game without the need for name calling which, btw, completely invalidates your claims- please cite 2 scholarly sources and at least 1 double blind study to back yourself up.

    As a skeptic I require a little more than just what some association or group of labcoats says to make something true. What is the origin of this disease? What is the contagion? What is the claimed rate of survival and estimated rate of contraction?
  • by FooAtWFU ( 699187 ) on Monday May 26, 2008 @04:48PM (#23548217) Homepage

    If you are concerned about discrimination against healthy people, you should argue for dismantling the health insurance system altogether.

    And if you're concerned about safe drivers, you should argue for dismantling the auto insurance system altogether.

    Except, even safe drivers have accidents, or have their cars struck by lightning while sitting in the driveway (true story!) and unexpected things come up with regards to peoples' health. Risk is always out there.

    And risk carries a price! A 1% chance of getting sick or injured this year and needing $100,000 dollars in treatment is worse than a 100% chance of spending $1000 a year on insurance against that. Why? Because that first $1000 doesn't mean nearly as much to you as the last $1000 after you've exhausted your life's savings and your kids' college funds and gone into debt. You can plan for the first $1000. That's why it's worth it. That's why you'll even pay more than $1000 in this hypothetical case, to cover the insurance company's administration and make it a profit. That is how insurance works.

    And to that end, it is good to discriminate based on real likelihood of disease. I know you want to protect the frail and the ill, and are more than willing to grab at the pockets of the eeeevil greeeedy faceless insurance corporations to pay for it. But it doesn't work that way: oh, sure, you'll grab a few thousands here and there, but it just ends up raising the cost of insurance for everyone, and when it gets down to that level it's a very regressive tax on society, as it affects the middle class and the poor much more than the rich, who can easily afford such hikes.

    In essence, people who argue for equality in insurance are misled. They don't want that. They really want something like socialized medicine, plain and simple.

  • by Kreigaffe ( 765218 ) on Monday May 26, 2008 @04:52PM (#23548249)
    How about a hiring policy that prohibits ownership of an SUV?
    Or prohibits those who rent, not own, their home?
    Or prohibits those who play video games?

    Maybe we should just prohibit coffee drinking.
    It's a legal drug, just like cigarettes.
  • the latter is a lifestyle choice

    STARTING smoking is a lifestyle choice - one which is often made at an age where you're too young and headstrong to know better. Continuing to smoke is not always a lifestyle choice.

    As someone who is a smoker and has tried many times to quit, I do NOT feel that I have control over it without medical aids. That effectively puts it in the "disease" category (as another poster has pointed out). I do not CHOOSE to continue smoking, I simply continue to do it because I can't not do it. I know that some people quit smoking very easily, and then go on at the rest of us about how you just "need to be strong" and so on. That's a load of crap - the addiction is different in different people, and many of us could much more easily give up FOOD and WATER than we could cigarettes. The most extreme hunger and the most dire thirst are NOTHING compared to the craving I have for a cigarette if I don't have one every few hours.

    I will very soon be seeing a doctor to get something prescribed, since the "over the counter" stuff helps somewhat, but not enough. I am fearful for my life, and yet still I light up. Tobacco addiction is a disease, and I would never wish it on anyone.

    (I do apologise for this rather "personal" rant here, but I can't let this little thread pass as is - I fully expect flames and derision for my comments here from those who couldn't possibly know what it's like. I will happily read and perhaps reply to any sensible replies, but will ignore the flames, so don't bother trying to get a rise out of me)

  • by T23M ( 705682 ) on Monday May 26, 2008 @04:53PM (#23548263)
    Mod parent up, please. There's more to blame for bad laws than the President, y'know.
  • by FooAtWFU ( 699187 ) on Monday May 26, 2008 @04:57PM (#23548297) Homepage

    Why should the rest of us have to pay for other people's bad luck?
    2. Because that's the entire purpose of insurance?

    No, no, no, nonononono. That's the purpose of socialism. The purpose of insurance is to manage risk. Nobody here seems to understand this.

    Is the purpose of your auto insurance so that you can pay for everyone else's bad driving when they have an accident? No. It's to manage the risk of your own driving.

    And you pay a $120/mo premium when your average accident rate would only really cost you $100/mo because if you did get in an accident without insurance and had to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars, you could be totally and irrevocably Screwed for life, whereas you can presumably deal with terrible horrible burden of an extra $20 a month (that goes towards administrativia and profit) to avoid that.

  • by p0tat03 ( 985078 ) on Monday May 26, 2008 @04:59PM (#23548327)

    Public health issue? So they don't smoke in the office, nor anywhere except designated smoking areas, where us non-smokers will never go anyway. "They smell bad" is about as valid as complaining about your coworker's BO, both are issues that you have to sort out within your own office environment.

    The problem with alcoholics is that being drunk precludes you from doing useful work, as well as being a disruptive force in the office. You cannot possibly make that case with smoking. A smoker is NOT impaired, nor is he disruptive unless he's puffing smoke in your face.

    I cannot believe you're seriously suggesting discrimination against smokers "because they smell bad". What's next, not hiring the Indian dude because he smells like curry? Get real.

    we should work more on prevention (the minimum age for buying cigarettes should get progressively higher, for instance).

    Ugh, age limits have NEVER solved ANY problems. Around here they keep raising the driving age, and accidents have never decreased. All they've done is have a bunch of 20 year-olds killing themselves in cars, instead of 16 year-olds. The smoking problem, drinking problem, and any other social ill is NOT solved by limiting access to the vice, it is solved from the root of it - cultural perceptions. Funny how France has no realistic drinking age, but alcohol abuse is a FAR smaller problem for them. It's all in the culture, m'boy.

  • by YttriumOxide ( 837412 ) <yttriumox@nOSpAm.gmail.com> on Monday May 26, 2008 @05:08PM (#23548413) Homepage Journal

    Those rights (life and liberty) have always existed, and always will. Just because they were not always granted does not mean they didn't exist. They exist outside of a system set up by people (unlike health care).

    I'm sorry, I don't really understand your reasoning for this. I understand the intent, and even somewhat can see the "emotion" behind it, but what I don't see is any logical explanation for it.

    WHY do you have a right to be alive? WHY is this right any different to a "right to be looked after when you're sick" (health care)? How are these two things not simply granted by others? (your "right to life" only exists because other's accept that it does)

    Note that I DO think you have a right to life, and I abhor the idea of a society that doesn't grant this right, but it most certainly is a societal thing, and not some mystical state of the universe that grants you this right.

  • by KDR_11k ( 778916 ) on Monday May 26, 2008 @05:08PM (#23548415)
    Would you say alcoholism or drug addiction is not a reason to reject an applicant?
  • by KDR_11k ( 778916 ) on Monday May 26, 2008 @05:18PM (#23548519)
    I think his point was that the law does not authorize that but Bush acts as if it did.
  • by Khyber ( 864651 ) <techkitsune@gmail.com> on Monday May 26, 2008 @05:37PM (#23548683) Homepage Journal
    Which reminds me - since it's not TOBACCO that you're addicted to, but NICOTINE, where does the AMA get off mislabeling the damned 'disease?'
  • by dten ( 448141 ) on Monday May 26, 2008 @05:46PM (#23548763)
    This also means we need to start planning our cities and communities around mass transit instead of driving, which means mixed use zoning to create pedestrian-friendly core destinations instead of decentralized urban/suburban grid sprawl. Mass transit doesn't work in a decentralized population.

    In other words, we literally need to plan our communities to look more European. Any help convincing Americans to do that is much appreciated.
  • by tsm_sf ( 545316 ) on Monday May 26, 2008 @05:48PM (#23548785) Journal
    Hmm... on the one hand you dismiss "some association or group of labcoats" and on the other hand you ask me to cite two sources and a study to back myself up. Who exactly would you accept as an authority? I'm sure you realize that any valid and peer-reviewed study would be done by a 'labcoat' who probably belongs to an 'organization' or two.

    I think the truth is that you will never accept as an authority any person or body that professes a view opposite to one you hold, regardless of experience or education.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 26, 2008 @05:48PM (#23548791)
    Oh noes! $4/gallon gas and it's teh liberals! As if electing a bunch of Texas oilmen really got us anywhere.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 26, 2008 @06:27PM (#23549127)
    Whatever. Some people actually ENJOY smoking. It's not like eating radioactive waste because radioactive waste WILL give you cancer, whereas smoking MAY give you cancer. So will high fructose corn syrup, which is in like. . . everything. It's either cancer or heart disease, you might as well smoke so you just die when you're old rather than being some senile fuck in a nursing home who can't even get up to use the restroom. Don't act like you're immortal because you don't smoke. You sound like Ricky Bobby, who said something like "With my high income and the advances in medical technology, it wouldn't be surprising if I liked to be like a hundred and thirty or so."

    The problem with smoking is that some people smoke a pack of cigarettes everyday. Anything in excess gives you cancer.
  • by orzetto ( 545509 ) on Monday May 26, 2008 @06:27PM (#23549129)

    Tobacco users have a disease, if that's what you want to call it, because they made a stupid decision.

    Your argument seems to be that since they made a stupid decision, they should not be helped and left to fend for themselves. What about AIDS victims? Are you going to argue that since they had risky sex they should not be helped? Or what about people sick with malaria, they should have known better and settled where the mosquitoes don't fly? And what about the child that falls into a pit, should he have known better too? Where are you going to draw the line?

    An addiction to nicotine is no different than one to alcohol or heroine or cocaine or any other addicting toxic drug: addicted people must be helped out of it, because that's the decent thing to do and because you also save society a few pennies by doing so. Making mistakes is a fairly common part of human life, and in the case of addictions such as smoking the main problem is in fact that people do not have complete control of their behaviour.

  • Jesus H. Christ! Take a gift without snarling, can't you?
  • by greyhueofdoubt ( 1159527 ) on Monday May 26, 2008 @06:50PM (#23549305) Homepage Journal
    So are you saying that the only 'legitimate' diseases are congenital? Because, you know, you caused your own chronic neck pain when you made the decision to get in that car and get hit by a drunk driver. How about diabetes? Some people are predisposed to it, while other people get it from piss-poor diets. And that reminds me, how do you deal with people who have poor diets and make poor decisions based on the way they were raised?

    This whole thing comes down to some unanswerable determinism/free-will kinds of arguments. IMO, sick people should be taken care of and healthy people should do whatever the hell they want with their bodies. End of story. The whole argument about any substance 'abuse' comes down to some kind of sick puritanical moralizing and it makes me sad that in this day and age my actions are ruled by the same people who won't let actors say 'poop' on tv.

    -bah
  • by stbill79 ( 1227700 ) on Monday May 26, 2008 @06:54PM (#23549345)
    Since when do tobacco smokers cost more (in the long run) regarding health costs?

    As a member of Gen Y, who actually understands the incredible amount of liabilities the baby boomers (Gen Debt or Gen ME) has left my generation, I'm not so quick to point the blame to smokers for all life's problems.

    In other words, that smoker who has already been taxed extra probably several hundred thousand dollars in their lifetime through BS cigarette taxes (spent to save the children, of course!) will almost certainly die much younger than the same non-smoker. And while paying for those lung cancer costs won't be cheap, it will absolutely be far cheaper than paying everything single one of the health costs for that same person who retires at 63 and uses benefits 'till they die of something else in their early 100's.

  • by Zencyde ( 850968 ) <Zencyde@gmail.com> on Monday May 26, 2008 @06:58PM (#23549381)
    Probably feeling annoyed. Everyone has called Bush a bad president for the longest time without really understanding a few primary things. For instance, most of these people don't understand the way that government works. They continuously blame President Bush for things that Congress does. They also blame him for the cabinet. Albeit, he has more direct control over the cabinet, he still receives plenty of unnecessary flak. It seems that the Bush bashing bandwagon is merely a popular item to jump on and everyone is doing it. No one has a good reason. They're doing it because it's a popular thing to do. Likewise, these people now believe (believe as in religion... with faith and no true basis (call me a troll for that if you want but that IS what religion is about and denying it means you're lying to yourself)) that President Bush can do nothing right. So, I sympathize with the GP that this whole ordeal is wearing thin.
  • by ducomputergeek ( 595742 ) on Monday May 26, 2008 @07:30PM (#23549609)
    The thing is about socialized medicine is that, as it's practiced throughout much of Europe, once you hit the age of 64/65, the level of coverage you qualify for is cut dramatically. 64 and need an organ transplant, too bad. At 64 you are no longer as seen as contributing to the economy. Even then, countries in Europe were having trouble keeping the programs funded, along with all the other entitlement problems they have.


    As far as I can tell, a certain percentage of the population gets screwed by health care coverage whether state or private controlled. The only thing we're debating is by whom and by how much do people get screwed.

  • by easyTree ( 1042254 ) on Monday May 26, 2008 @07:54PM (#23549751)

    No one has a good reason

    That whole thing about how the war in Iraq was part of a business arrangement which enabled him to siphon public money into his buddies' bank accounts (handing lucrative contracts to rebuild the Iraq that he destroyed, to the chosen few) isn't a reason, is it? What would you call it though? purely so that we can define terms..
  • by corsec67 ( 627446 ) on Monday May 26, 2008 @08:31PM (#23549983) Homepage Journal
    Yeah, buses can be useful.

    They would be useful to me if the nearest bus stop to my house wasn't 5 miles away and buses ran more often than every 2 hours.

    Americans have spent fifty years developing the idea that traveling alone is normal. It is not.

    It is normal, for many Americans, as you just said. Efficient? Environmentally conscious? Maybe not, but it is pretty normal.
  • by NIckGorton ( 974753 ) * on Monday May 26, 2008 @11:29PM (#23551501)

    Whether or not nicotine addiction is a disease is completely irrelevant. The issue is control and choice. Tobacco users had control and made a choice which led to them becoming nicotine addicts.
    Except most people become addicted to tobacco while they are still children and are unable to make that informed choice. Once they enter adulthood and are at the point where they can be expected to make a reasoned adult choice, they are already screwed.

    Comparing tobacco users to people with inherited disorders is bullshit. Tobacco users have a disease, if that's what you want to call it, because they made a stupid decision. A person with hemophilia inherited defective genes. One has a disorder because of something under their control, their decision to smoke. The other has a disorder because of something completely out of their control, the mixture of genes they inherited from their parents.
    Well 1) there are genes that make people more susceptible to tobacco addiction. 2) People in certain socioeconomic groups are more likely to be tobacco dependent. and 3) There are lots of diseases one gets in part because of what you would refer to a 'stupid choices' - basal cell carcinoma, melanoma, diabetes type 2, alcoholism, heart disease, renal failure, syphilis, etc. You would not consider those to be non-diseases just because they are complex entities that are the result of a genetic propensity, environmental conditions, and craptastic luck.

    But then almost all diseases are exactly that: a genetic propensity + environmental conditions. Even things we think of as '100% genetic' like cystic fibrosis. 100 years ago, most kids with CF didn't survive infancy. 50 years ago most kids with CF didn't survive their teens. 20 years ago most kids with CF didn't survive their 20s. Today many survive into their 40s or even later. Thats a huge positive impact exerted by the environment (i.e. a modern western one with access to advanced medical care.)
  • by ChromeAeonium ( 1026952 ) on Tuesday May 27, 2008 @12:13AM (#23551825)

    Watson was forced into retirement for saying that wanting everyone to be "equal" doesn't make them so. Of course, the moment that the POSSIBILITY of any inherent inequality is brought up, any rational debate is impossible because no one wants to consider it.
    Yeah, and every time the POSSIBILITY that the Earth is flat comes up, people just blow it off. What's up with that? Folks just don't want to come face to face with the possibility that, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, the Earth may be flat. Sure, some may say it's based on biased and outdated pseudoscience, but I'll be damned if it doesn't deserve consideration!
  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 27, 2008 @12:54AM (#23552133)
    Heck, city design doesn't have to look that European, just look to the metro-regions that were well established before 1900. The layout/density of them makes public transportation workable, and some of them were smart enough to keep commuter rail despite the federal highway system that came in post WWII. It's the post WWII cul-de-sac sprawl type B.S. infrastructure with miles between types of zoning thats not really economically sensible in regards to increasing energy costs. (And the misguided cold war idea that spreading the population out might make MAD more survivable didn't help any either.) It's not that it's always good to mix up zoning, but rather they should be within reasonable walking distance or connected by established mass transit.
  • by wolfemi1 ( 765089 ) on Tuesday May 27, 2008 @11:29AM (#23556751)
    [citation needed]
  • by sumdumass ( 711423 ) on Tuesday May 27, 2008 @03:08PM (#23560351) Journal
    Insurance itself is priced the way it is because of the same factors. Like I said, increase the cost to the smoker for the risks they bring in. It isn't like you can't recoup that costs. Your argument is then eroded away to "but I don't want to".

    You bring up all this "they can" stuff like it is some right. Well, for a private company, that might be true. But they can also not hire blacks who eat pork because the health risk increase, they can not hire whites who live near power lines because there is an increased risk of illnesses even though there has never been a link to the power lines. They can not hire people who play sports because there is an increased risk, they can not hire people who ride motorcycles because the chances of health problems stemming from an accident is greater then in a car. You know, because they "can" place a risk to anything that is legal, a company can make sure it only hires upermiddle class white folk and only the minorities that act white both at and away from work. And lets face it, that wouldn't be discrimination because they will hire the black people who act white, live in white neighborhoods and so on in order to reduce their risks and costs of insurance.

    Like I said before, all of your concerns about extra costs to a smoker can be mitigated. There is no proof that a smoker will cost more in health care costs over their lifetime. Everyone dies of something, smokers just tend to do it sooner then non smokers. I have never seen a company that required you to take their insurance at your expense as a condition for employment so if the smoker doesn't take the insurance, they are in no difference of a state then they are without the smoker. I know lots of people who use their spouses insurance and forgo the company insurance because it is better or something. So while you want to justify what they can do in search for the almighty dollar, you might want to watch out for a situation where you won't have a job because nature hikes means people will twist their ankles and it might cost the company something more.

    Employment is an exchange of value for a promise of value. Not some exorcise in cutting costs. You show up and provide value to the company, then then pay you in which you can buy something of value to you later. Nothing has ever shown that smokers are less productive the non-smokers and as long as it is a legal activity, nothing should be preventing someone from employment because of it unless it directly influences the company they are working for(or intending to work for).

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