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Biotech Science

Some People Just Never Learn 327

Iddo Genuth writes "German scientists recently showed what many of us suspected but could not prove — some people just don't learn. The German researchers have found a genetic factor that affects our ability to learn from our errors. The scientists demonstrated that men carrying the A1 mutation are less successful at learning to avoid mistakes than men who do not carry this genetic mutation. This finding has the potential to improve our understanding of the causes of addictive and compulsive behaviors."
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Some People Just Never Learn

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  • by blind biker ( 1066130 ) on Thursday January 24, 2008 @07:36PM (#22175188) Journal
    ...doesn't it mean it has some evolutionary advantages?
  • by farkus888 ( 1103903 ) on Thursday January 24, 2008 @07:41PM (#22175244)
    I agree. I know I will be called out on anecdotal data here but I have known more than one person with alcohol problems or who are smokers who are actually quite bright. everyone knows of the archetypal substance abusing tortured genius. I'm not saying that alcoholism is a sign of intelligence but rather that it is a poor indicator of stupidity, in this case shown through repetitive poor decisions.
  • Dopamine (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Psychotria ( 953670 ) on Thursday January 24, 2008 @07:46PM (#22175326)
    I wonder if this implies that medication that affects dopamine levels reduces (or increases) a persons failure to learn from mistakes.
  • by Secret Rabbit ( 914973 ) on Thursday January 24, 2008 @07:52PM (#22175408) Journal
    Then they'll brainwash there kids into thinking they have a genetic disorder that prevents them from learning (educators will propagate this as well). Then the activists will get involved and say that poor grades are discriminatory against something that these people have no control over. Then...
  • I call them me (Score:5, Interesting)

    by selfdiscipline ( 317559 ) on Thursday January 24, 2008 @07:52PM (#22175414) Homepage
    I was diagnosed with some sort of generic learning disability when I was a teen.

    I tend to bang my brain against new concepts again and again, until I finally understand them in big chunks. I tend to overlook the obvious, and go for the bizarre interpretations of things.

    So I often find myself in situations where I feel stupid for not grasping something that is readily apparent to most everyone else, but at the same time I've been successful with teaching myself certain concepts other people wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole.

    For instance, I've taught myself how to program in Haskell, whereas most programmers run screaming from anything with more than a minimal functional paradigm component. It did take me quite a while to get some concepts in Haskell, though.
  • by WillAffleckUW ( 858324 ) on Thursday January 24, 2008 @08:05PM (#22175562) Homepage Journal
    Just because some people have a harder time learning does not mean they can't learn.

    It's just harder.

    Seriously, it doesn't mean they don't learn (the title of this /. post), it means they have a lower capability.

    It's like saying that Americans can't speak more than two languages. Most have never tried, nor had the easy resources to do so, but they could probably learn additional languages, even if it might be harder here.
  • Re:Of all races.. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by QuantumRiff ( 120817 ) on Thursday January 24, 2008 @08:14PM (#22175678)
    For those that are going to call Goodwin's Law, look up eugenetics. Many US states practiced it up until around the time of WW2 (some states even did it later). Sterilizing prisoners, people they decided were mentally ill, etc. Some really, scary and depressing cases. Sure, it wasn't necessarily race based, but definitely the same idea that a certain European country had.. In fact, they claimed they got the idea from California.
  • by mattis_f ( 517228 ) on Thursday January 24, 2008 @08:15PM (#22175686)
    Maybe the article is badly written, but it appears as if the scientists are jumping conclusions. The test subjects were asked to pick a symbol, they got feedback in the form of a smiley face or an angry face. Some short time later they were asked to pick a symbol again. If they now picked the happy face, the scientists assumed they had learned.

    Somehow, I doubt that seeing a smiley face is enough of a reward to make the subject avoid making the same choice again. I mean, the angry face might look more interesting, or the subject might just wonder what happens if the takes the other card (given that he took the happy one first).

    I'm just saying - there could be many reasons other than "not learning" why a person picks the symbol that gives an unhappy face as a result. Hopefully, the scientists thought of this, but it's not in the article (as far as I can tell).
  • In other news... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Dystopian Rebel ( 714995 ) * on Thursday January 24, 2008 @08:19PM (#22175736) Journal
    "OS/2 Supporters Petition IBM To Open OS/2 Source In 2008"

    "Bill Gates Says Capitalism Shouldn't Be So Cut-Throat"

    "Microsoft Says Current Windows Is The Most Secure"
  • Re:Of all races.. (Score:2, Interesting)

    by besya ( 154228 ) on Thursday January 24, 2008 @08:20PM (#22175746)
    It is amazing how a person while defending a nation from being stereotyped against can none the less demonstrate the same prejudice as the original poster. I agree that we can't say that all Germans were at fault for what happened to the Jews. Can you please elaborate on the good and valid reasons that can or could exist to hate every single member of the nation, in your post you are saying there were. The fact that Jews through out the history where hated is not a good defense of what happened in Germany. This whole discussion is irrelevant to this post in any case, the original post was irrelevant your reply was as bad and frankly mine is no better, I just can't stand someone jumping in to defend against stereotyping while committing the same offense.
  • by Lord Ender ( 156273 ) on Thursday January 24, 2008 @09:36PM (#22176490) Homepage
    Well, that and the fact that the (republican) election board in Ohio decided to allocate all the voting machines to areas of the state which supported Bush, forcing people who lived near (for example) the universities to wait in line for hours or not vote at all.

    Luckily, Ohio did learn from its mistake, and kicked the republican governor out of office to years later.
  • Re:I call them me (Score:3, Interesting)

    by LordLucless ( 582312 ) on Thursday January 24, 2008 @10:19PM (#22176830)
    That's what I find peculiar. As soon as they "discover" that the old adage "not everyone is wired the same way", they immediately declare these people "damaged" or "worthless".

    My problem is more with people who, when finding out they are wired differently, then say "oh, it's not my fault, it's my genetics" and proceed to not even try to learn. Obviously this isn't the GP, but for far too many people, things like this (and say, ADHD, Aspergers, etc) become an excuse to be trotted out when convenient, not a hurdle to be overcome.
  • by thirty-seven ( 568076 ) on Thursday January 24, 2008 @11:58PM (#22177534)

    "all of those voting machines that voted for Bush"

    Whether or not enough votes were faked/switched/stolen to steal the election, it seems indisputable that about five out of ten U.S voters voted for Bush in 2004. And turnout was sixty percent, so really seven out of ten * registered voters either didn't care if Bush got re-elected or they voted for him. Having known and worked with many Americans in the United States for several years centred around the 2004 election, I still don't know how to account for that widespread amount of mass wilful ignorance and/or active malice.

    I think, having known many Americans, that I have much more trouble making sense of it than do people who have never lived among them.

    * - 7/10 because 4/10 didn't vote and (50% * 6/10) voted for Bush.

  • Re:I call them me (Score:5, Interesting)

    by grammar fascist ( 239789 ) on Friday January 25, 2008 @01:33AM (#22178224) Homepage

    That's what I find peculiar. As soon as they "discover" that the old adage "not everyone is wired the same way", they immediately declare these people "damaged" or "worthless". Such is the fate of those who entrust their families to the cookie cutter society... they get a cookie cutter family, and if it doesn't fit the mold, its declared "defective."

    I'm reading a little anti-...oh, maybe anti-ADHD-diagnosis in this, among other things. Funny, this happened last time this story was reported here [slashdot.org]. Let me clear up a few things.

    Lower output of dopamine (or some insufficiency of it in some way), which is what this article is about in the end, is implicated in ADHD. It's very well known that dopamine, the neurotransmitter associated with pleasure, is one of the few things responsible for your prefrontal cortex getting a jump-start when you need to reason about something. (Another is norepinephrine, the neurotransmitter associated with stress.) The prefrontal cortex is responsible for executive function: integrating memories, learning, predicting outcomes - a whole slew of things. Presumably, the dopamine squirt is what gets babies to learn to eat. Chew food -> dopamine + good feeling -> brain kicks into gear to figure out how to get it again.

    Most healthy adults can start up the prefrontal cortex on demand. People with low levels of dopamine can't. From a neurological perspective, low levels of dopamine is obviously a bad thing.

    When I was diagnosed with ADHD, I did my own research, including reading relevant papers from neuroscience literature. ADHD generally shows up in brain scans as decreased activity in the prefrontal cortex. Taking medication brings dopamine levels up to normal - it's why they prescribe stimulants. For anyone else it's a bad idea, but for people with ADHD it's normalizing.

    (I'd be very interested to know whether these researchers at Max Planck have discovered any ties between this mutation and ADHD.)

    Nearly all of my grade-school teachers suspected that I had ADHD and told my parents, but they never let on to me. Instead of being labeled "ADHD" or "damaged" or "worthless" (as you say), I got labeled "hyperactive" and "annoying" and "arrogant" and "difficult". I was 25 by the time I understood that something must be objectively different. By the time I was 31 I was feeling "damaged" and "worthless" without anyone ever saying those words to me. I had started affixing those labels to myself because of repeatedly failing to do things I knew I was perfectly capable of that I actually wanted very badly to do.

    Still want to withhold diagnosis and treatment based on your preconceived notions of normal variation?

    I don't. My son, who is like me in so many ways it's scary, is getting all the relevant information as soon as he's old enough to understand it. He's entitled to the full knowledge he'll need to decide who he wants to be. I never got that option.
  • Re:I call them me (Score:3, Interesting)

    by L0rdJedi ( 65690 ) on Friday January 25, 2008 @03:06PM (#22185062)
    Did you have trouble focusing on video games or other things that were "fun"? That's the main thing I see with people who are so called "ADHD". They have no trouble at all focusing on the "fun" things in life, but when it comes to stuff they don't want to do, that's where they have trouble. That's why I always call bullshit on ADHD. NOBODY likes to do things that aren't fun (no one I know anyway). Does that mean that a lot of people have ADHD? HELL NO! What it means is that people need to learn that not everything is fun. Work is work and play is play. Get your work done first and then you can have all the fun you want.

    What, exactly, did you have trouble doing at 31 that you knew you were capable of? Now that you're on meds, have you accomplished those things? I'm 33 and I plenty of trouble picking up basic math concepts until halfway through 7th grade. I still can't grasp a lot of Calculus concepts, but I could give a rats ass now, since it won't help me with my career. I still can't stand doing basic chores like laundry, taking out the trash, and anything else that's not "fun". I would still rather spend 4 hours playing Team Fortress 2 than spending 3 hours cleaning the house and only 1 on TF2. Those are the realities of being an adult though.

All seems condemned in the long run to approximate a state akin to Gaussian noise. -- James Martin

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