MIT's SAT Math Error 280
theodp writes "The Wall Street Journal reports that for years now, MIT wasn't properly calculating the average freshmen SAT scores (reg.) used to determine U.S. News & World Report's influential annual rankings. In response to an inquiry made by The Tech regarding the school's recent drop in the rankings, MIT revealed that in past years it had excluded the test scores of foreign students as well as those who fared better on the ACT than the SAT, both violations of the U.S. News rules. MIT's reported first-quartile SAT verbal and math scores for the 2006 incoming class totaled 1380, a drop of 50 points from 2005."
Perhaps they should offer a Quality Assurance majr (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Perhaps they should offer a Quality Assurance m (Score:2)
1220 in 1989 (Score:5, Informative)
Back then, a 1400 really meant something, and a "perfect" score was a one or two person thing.
Re:1220 in 1989 (Score:5, Funny)
What it really meant was they were sitting at the same table!
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Re:1220 in 1989 (Score:5, Informative)
If you google around, you'll see articles about how "national SAT scores fell for the second year in a row" or some nonsense like that. There are ways you can sensibly compare SAT scores across years, but you cannot compare averages over a significant fraction of the testing pool.
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wrong. (Score:3, Informative)
That's correct, the scores are normalized so that the distributions are the same. This means you *can't* compare scores across years. If you did, you would find that, amazingly, the distributions were the same. But have the students stayed the same? Nope. Have the questions stayed the same? No again.
You are wrong. Each SAT has a section that doesnt count for that year's grading but is for future tests. So lets say I take the SAT and get a 1400, and then on the experimental section I get 80% of the questions right. Well, this experimental section will be used next year as part of the test, and a correlation will be done where 80% correct = 1400.
So it is not normalized based on the year you take it. It is correlated to the kids who took it last year, and what score they got. Of course, its a much more c
Re:1220 in 1989 (Score:5, Informative)
Yes and no, one problem is that now they normalize the test TOO often, due to the fact that students weren't scoring well (average SAT score fell to about 930-950 or so by the early 1990s). They added essays and some other stuff which arguably added more subjectivity to the grading, and they did a BIG recalibration in 1994 that basically gave everyone an extra hundred points (don't they allow calculators now, too?). So any test scores from 1994 or later are considered meaningless as anything other than an indication of how you did on the SAT compared to the other students that exact same year.
Before 1994, the SAT correlated closely with IQ and could generally be compared (roughly) across years because it hadn't changed much in decades (precisely the complaint that led it to being redesigned). For example, MENSA doesn't accept [mensa.org] SAT scores after 1994 as indication of intelligence.
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Re:1220 in 1989 (Score:5, Insightful)
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I think they added 100 points to the average in the mid 90s when they were starting to ramp up online testing.
Back then, I knew a guy that made a 800 verbal and he got his picture in the local paper (500k population town).
1500+ is commonplace now.
I had people make fun of me at Georgia Tech because I only had a 780 Math. What a bunch of tools...
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Re:1220 in 1989 (Score:5, Funny)
Let me guess, the verbal section accounted for much of the discrepancy?
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I'm taking the GRE tomorrow. Wish me luck. I practiced like hell for this one.
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I pity the fool.
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Sorry, the 1994 & 1995 SATs were the new, easy kind. You could get a "perfect" score and still get several questions wrong.
Forign Students (Score:2)
I ask because I know several people who graduated Jamaican high schools then enrolled in American universities, including MIT (There is a rumour going around that MIT is a good school).
Thing is many of those Jamaicans never did SAT at all. They either did the CXC (Caribbean Examination Council) exams or the British "O" Level and "A" Level exams.
Many US Universities (Including MIT) are happy with grades from those exams. So happy that you are not ask
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I don't know what MIT is doing, and I'm not contradicting you about wherever you went, but I don't think that's typical. At least at my alma mater, they don't care where you came from, but they want to see some sort of standardized test score. In fact, they tend to rely on them more heavily for foreign students, who typically don't get an opportunity to inter
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Some US schools think an exam which works for 15 of America's weaker allies [caricom.org] is standard enough.
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While I do not know the state of US educational system now, 20 years ago it was indeed as you say - cash on the barrel. At best you had the university waving part of the tuition fee. Everything else - dormitory fees, food, textbooks, etc you had to fend for yourself. This amounted on the average to anything between 5 and 10 times the average annual income in more than half of the world (I think it still does).
As a result the only two ways of getting a US education for a foreigner was eith
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MIT doesn't offer athletic scholarships. Academic yes, athletic no. (It's a condition of their participation in NCAA Division III.)
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Our economy sucks (GDP per Capita ~$4,700 US, compared to $43,500 for USA) so almost nobody can actually afford MIT.
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Scholarships exist to ensure that those who are admitted will not be prevented from attending because of financial need. Thus, the requirements to receive a scholarship from MIT are academic merit and financial need. That's merit-based in my book.
Remove the (domestic)exclusion, remove the problem (Score:2)
Admission is merit-based.
That is a problem that can be solved, and not by increasing (domestic) exclusion in admissions. Merit can always be circumvented by politics and money, see about any selective university of the Northeast to the Southwest.
Scholarships exist to ensure that those who are admitted will not be prevented from attending because of financial need. Thus, the requirements to receive a scholarship from MIT are academic merit and financial need. That's merit-based in my book.
Remove the issue of high-debt funding, remove the money problem.
Otherwise, the only viable way to keep selectivity in(and keep things civil) is to literally make it forbidden to state more than just a standardized(should a university try to come up with a university specific major) degree
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I'm pretty sure that MIT doesn't give sports scholarships.
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Re:Foreign Students (Score:2)
That's not the question at hand. Rather, if everyone else is reporting them, why should MIT be exempt?
-Bill
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That happens. Sometimes you look at a disparity and ask "why doesn't the misfit follow suite" Other times you ask "Why doesn't everyone else follow the misfit."
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Those whacky MIT Kids... (Score:5, Funny)
Just watch out when one of them attains the CEO position at your company.
"Hey, you know what would be a really hilarious number for our stock prices to hit?"
Uh oh.
Oops! (Score:2, Interesting)
Perhaps from a math standpoint, the ACT and SAT could be useful. But the rest of the stuff in the tests... useless.
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I think you'll find that it isn't a vocabulary test, it's a test of whether you can on-the-fly generalize and intuit how to reapply pieces of language (after all, IQ tests are basically designed to test your ability to see patterns and apply them).
Sure, if you don't know anything about the English language, you'll be screwed, but if you don't know anything about geometry you'll be screwed just the same. You could TRY to memorize the whole dictionary, or
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The reason geometry is better is that you don't need to memorize several thousand or even several hundred rules. You probably need less than 50 to do well in high-school level geometry. After 50 it's just applying them in the right sequence. The reason that's acceptable in the US is that in most state
Re:Oops! (Score:4, Insightful)
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Nope, IQ is meant to predict educational ability and achievement.
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By the time you enter college it doesn't matter how good you inherently are but how good you
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Re:Oops! (Score:4, Insightful)
If the person has a high SAT score but a low IQ score then they are in the "work really hard" group, you want them.
If the person has a high SAT score and a high IQ score then they are in the "gifted" group, you want them.
If the person has a low SAT score and a low IQ score then they are in the "dumb" group, you don't want them.
If the person has a low SAT score and a high IQ score then they are in the "smart but lazy" group, you don't want them.
Since all you don't actually care about the groups, just the "want them"/"don't want them" decisions IQ provides nothing.
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In other words stop blaming everyone else and look hard at yourself and either stop bitching or change
Re:Oops! (Score:5, Informative)
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And yes I do bitch quite often, I never said I don't.
In this case it's simply due to my own hard learned experience. Intelligence is worth very little unless you have the work ethic to put it to use, and it's your own fault if you can't manage to do something with that intelligence not anyone else's. I've seen too many people believe o
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Holy bats***! I didn't know Terraforming was part of the exam? Granted I've never heard of doing so on just a single tree. It must be some newfangled kind of tree.--/endOfSarcasm
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I have a great problem with countless standardized tests of the 'no child left behind' kind. All kids are
Re:Oops! (Score:5, Informative)
Actually the US college system relies amazingly little on standardized tests in comparison to many other nations. In many countries there is a set of tests which pretty much are the only measure and the only chance you get. If you do badly or the computer system fucks up you're screwed.
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Anyway, I was mostly just stating a fact and yes I do know someone who got fucked over by a computer glitch.
In the US system you do lose some stability (you can't ever be sure that X will mean you get into Y) but I do think the flexibility is by far worth it. Not that there isn't some flexibility in other countries but it seems a lot more contained and limited. Of course I'm biased since I grew up (mostly) in the US and personally I'd be eaten alive by a system
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People who do wonderfully in high school, because of a tightly constrained environment and a pushy family, but who aren't any good at problem-solving on their own, or working without a fixed timetable, or who just don't have the diversity of interests and social
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The IQ test can help spot developmental problems in children - that's what it was designed to do, and that's the only thing it's good at.
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Well there's your problem... (Score:5, Funny)
I don't normally put a lot of stock in standardized test scores, but with a total score of 1380 for an entire class, I can see how that might be a problem.
not just a chuckle story (Score:2)
There were hotter girls at my college anyway.
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Nobody Should Care (Score:3, Insightful)
Scoring high may or may not help you get into the right school. The right school will make a difference for pretty much your first job. After that, if people are even mentioning your education other than in passing during an interview, you've already lost.
I know very few people who value educational qualifications over proven experience. Of course, the tech world is a bit different than the rest of the business world, but this is slashdot.
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When I went to MIT back before most of you were zygotes, the admissions formula had already become a carefully-tuned equation (what else would you expect?). For example, high schools in the US were given a quality score, and your SAT score was normalized by your high school's score. So, if you got a 1300 from some one-room schoolhouse in West Virginia, that was considered as good as a 1600 from Weston High School (which routinely turned out 1600's, and was widely recognized as an
Quartile = bottom 25th percentile (Score:2)
1380? Wow, I almost could've made that. (Score:2)
Two points (cheating and cheating) (Score:5, Informative)
The second point is that many schools are very careful when examining foriegn test scores because of cheating supported by the government. It is well-known that many countries actively encourage cheating (which helps the students get grants or acceptance). The school where I was had a watch list and would ignore scores outright from many countries. Makes me wonder whether they still reported these suspect high scores as part of their average (I expect they did).
Re:If I could do it all over again... (Score:5, Funny)
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Bad spelling, on the other hand....
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Don't be a fool. Wrap your tool.
The editor of Forbes would agree... (Score:4, Insightful)
Ahh, parent poster is a Troll, eh? Forbes publisher Rich Karlgaard [forbes.com] would probably agree with AC. Is he a troll too? I saw far too many kids there for the party myself... the 'life experience' they called it. We even have online encyclopedias citing which schools paaar-tay [msn.com] the hardest. I'm sure that image doesn't hurt enrollment numbers and the government money flowing into universities. I wouldn't be surprised if universities quietly encourage that 'rep' via PR firms. College is big business. So big in fact that university finances have begun drawing the scrutiny of congress. [bloomberg.com] We've even begun exporting American-style higher education. [bbc.co.uk] It may not be the best in the world, but it sure makes a shitload of money.
In the meantime, there's a lot of kids leaving college with a worthless degree [moneycrashers.com] and lots of debt. The university was enriched by the process, but you can't say that for all their graduates. I'll bet if the OP had mentioned something about outsourcing [cbsnews.com] the post would be +5 Insightful.
Worked for Esther Dyson (Score:5, Insightful)
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m4422/is_n6_v15/ai_20860361 [findarticles.com]
"Her dad once chastised her for wasting his tuition money by not going to her classes. With typical Esther aplomb, she countered, "Daddy, you don't understand. You don't come to Harvard to study. You come to Harvard to get to know the right people."
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Re:The editor of Forbes would agree... (Score:5, Insightful)
Did the OP add anything to a conversation? Is a unilateral claim such as this insightful? Informative? Ask yourself this seriously. It is off topic, and just a way to get the predictable responses (I did well in school and have a sucky job... I didn't go to college and make millions...) A serious post would at least have some text, or make a well-reasoned claim to *something*. Some of the replies in the thread are actually insightful, and have been moderated accordingly.
The original post is pretty much the definition of a troll, and judging by the number and type of replies, a successful one.
Re:The editor of Forbes would agree... (Score:4, Insightful)
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I wish I had mod points today (Score:3, Interesting)
I see this dichotomy in what my wife and I got out of college:
I, unfortunately, was one of those "skate where you can" students--I aced the tests and did just the minimum amount of coursework to pass. I rarely cracked a (course-related) book, paid attention in lectures, or participated in discussions. I got a few things out of my college years--generally from required courses in subject areas I wouldn't normally have taken and actually had to learn about to pass the classes--but m
Re:The editor of Forbes would agree... (Score:5, Insightful)
Ahh, parent poster is a Troll, eh?
Yes, he is a troll. Education does not promise you money, it only promises to educate you if you are willing to be educated. In all of my classes my professors never claimed that after passing the class I would be blessed with high paying jobs. Instead, their claim was, "these are the topics we will cover." How well they covered those topics varied, and obviously some professors did poorly while others did well. But nobody ever said, "learn this and you will make money." As a student, you choose your degree, and you choose what classes you will take. There is no reason to come crying after you graduated to claim that your degree did nothing for you when it was practically your choice all along.
Forbes publisher Rich Karlgaard would probably agree with AC. Is he a troll too?
The article you linked to makes no claims that school is worthless. In fact, the article is brining up a major point that you and the parent missed: if you only are thinking in terms of costs and how much the degree with return in terms of money, then you have to think in terms of return on investment on the degree and the following job because of it compared to whatever alternative plan you have in mind. The option that has the highest return is obviously the option you should take if your only goal is money.
I saw far too many kids there for the party myself... the 'life experience' they called it. We even have online encyclopedias citing which schools paaar-tay the hardest.
I saw a lot of kids partying. But I also saw a lot of those kids failing their classes, dropping out, staying for as long as 6 to 7 years, or ultimately getting a crappy job as a result. The question here is did they turn out better than they would have if they did not go to college? Maybe maybe not. But ultimately, who ever made the choices (parents and the child) are responsible. I'm not going to feel sorry or feel like it is a problem if a kid's parents are uninformed about their kid's choices or the kid does not have the motivation to utilize his resources. That's their business and as far as I can tell that's a hell of a lot better than some of the alternatives.
College is big business. So big in fact that university finances have begun drawing the scrutiny of congress.
Oh, another Harvard, Yale, and Stanford article. What about public schools?
We've even begun exporting American-style higher education.
I don't see anything wrong with it. There are already a lot of international students enrolled everywhere throughout the country. In the same way, there are a lot of American students participating in foreign schools.
In the meantime, there's a lot of kids leaving college with a worthless degree and lots of debt.
I had a friend in college that happened to be a computer science major. But the big thing about her was that she was a girl and she was cute. Her personality was nothing like a geek and she could have easily done something else or fit in with other social groups. Naturally, the question came up, "Why computer science?" Her answer was, "I initially thought about getting another degree but my parents disagreed and said I needed to get something more 'useful.'" In the context she was speaking of, "useful" was a degree that would guarantee a higher salary. Indeed, she did get a job that she didn't mind doing in the software industry and did hit a higher salary. Unlike most people, she actually made the choice based on money and it paid off.
Others do not think like that. Instead they either think college is one of those necessary things or something their parents forced them into. The end result is a kid that partied too much barely finished his degree, and most of all did not learn anything or put the degree to use. I do not think that issue will ever be fixed because some people are that stupid. Ultimately for those people it may not matter because their parents m
Re:If I could do it all over again... (Score:5, Insightful)
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That's true. I'm currently in my second year studying chemistry. I didn't necessarily mean the degrees wouldn't be useless professionally; I'm very aware that the world is not a meritocracy. I do think that a good education is its own reward, and you have to study a real subject in the arts/sciences for one of those.
By the way, I had been under the impression that engineering degrees were generally for people who wanted to make money (i
Re:If I could do it all over again... (Score:5, Insightful)
I think that anyone who wants an engineering degree for the money will be disappointed. I have a degree in chemical engineering, and I make $55,000 (that is with 10 months of experience). That sounds like a lot for being just out of school, but given the extra effort of obtaining the degree, and the amount of work that is expected from me at my job, I don't think it's a better deal than a liberal arts degree would've been. I think that the value of any degree is what you do with it. If you work to gain valuable experience, advocate yourself, and work well with others, you can make a 6 figure income with any degree.
I am in the field because I am passionate about making peoples lives better, and I feel like engineering accomplishes that. I don't want to work forever in academia, because I feel like all the mindless bureaucracy and politics of the university makes enriching the lives of others nearly impossible. Of course, if I did want to work forever in academics, I could still do that with an engineering degree.
Re:If I could do it all over again... (Score:5, Informative)
Yes but consider this. The average starting salary of a liberal arts degree holder is generally quoted as $30-35k. The average starting salary of an engineering degree holder is generally quoted in the $50-55k range. That's a pretty significant difference - the engineering degree yields a return of 40 to 80% straight off the bat. Granted the engineering degree is harder but I'd say it's well worth the effort.
Now that said, I do agree with you that a degree is only as valuable as you make it (to a certain point). But I think taking these numbers in the aggregate probably cuts a lot of the variance due to super high- and low- achievers.
Re:If I could do it all over again... (Score:5, Funny)
A six figure income, no dress code, full benefits, three assistants, and a 32 hour work week??
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I recently was talking to a friend and we agreed, nobody works in physics. If you have a physics graduate degree you are in academia, if you have a physics undergrad degree you are doing something you picked up while learn
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My advisor's wife has a PhD in physics, and she works for Boeing. A lot of high tech companies hire physicists to do research for them. I don't know numbers, but it seems to be more common than you think.
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I have to admit that there is some truth to what you say. I knew a lot of engineering students who seemed to be in it just for the money. But I also knew a few who were pre-med and pre-law. My best friend planned from th
Almost all bad examples. (Score:2)
You didn't go to a school with a nuclear engineering or nuclear physics department, did you? I did (Georgia Tech), and the job market for those skills is ridiculously tight according to what I heard. Try to think of jobs for that degree. Think real hard, and you'll probably come up with a list of tightly regulated industries that aren't seeing much expansion or much in the way of fundamental research.
As for a chemistry degree, you're lookin
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Of course, keeping your US visa valid may be a bit difficult depending on where you go.
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2) Submit to professional recruiting agencies
3) Work on your presentation and appearance
4) ????
5) Profit!
Re:If I could do it all over again... (Score:5, Insightful)
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Even given equal talents, some of us are going to work for others, some are going to teach others and some of us will be business makers. For every Jobs, there's a Woz
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We invent something and ship it off to China to be made. Unfortunately with an IP heavy economy we are at the mercy of foreign knock-offs.
Depends on what you pair it with... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:If I could do it all over again... (Score:5, Informative)
Also, consider that many state government positions have a prerequisite of any Bachelor's degree from any accredited college. In Illinois, for example, many decent jobs with good benefits can plausibly be had with a degree in Liberal Arts or Medieval Literature, although you might be up against candidates who might have studied something more directly relevant. For some fields within the Illinois state government, the degree requirement can be waived for experience.
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So, the bottom quartile contains all the people who are in the bottom 25 percentiles of SAT scores. (i.e., out of the entire distribution of SAT scores, these were the 25% that were the lowest).
The top quartile contains all the people who are in the top 25 percentiles of SAT scores.
And so on...
Re:is that a word? (Score:5, Funny)
Don't worry, you're not in it.
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