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Science Technology

German Physicists Claim Speed of Light Broken 429

Byzanthy writes "Two German physicists claim to have broken the speed of light by using 'microwave photons.' According to Einstein's special theory of relativity, it would require an infinite amount of energy to accelerate any object beyond the speed of light. However, Dr Gunter Nimtz and Dr Alfons Stahlhofen, of the University of Koblenz, say they did it by using a phenomenon known as quantum tunneling. The pair say they have conducted an experiment in which microwave photons — energetic packets of light — traveled 'instantaneously' between a pair of prisms that had been moved up to 3ft apart." New Scientist, however, is running an article that suggests Einstein can rest easy. Aephraim Steinberg, a quantum optics expert at the University of Toronto, explains that the German physicist's results aren't necessarily wrong, they are just being interpreted incorrectly.
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German Physicists Claim Speed of Light Broken

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  • quantum spin (Score:3, Interesting)

    by randuev ( 1032770 ) on Friday August 17, 2007 @09:35AM (#20260087)
    Doesn't quantum changing of spin happen faster than light would travel between two points? Does teleportation actually breaking speed of light? Otherwise why would it be called teleportation if it's just moving things (really) fast?
  • by abionnnn ( 758579 ) on Friday August 17, 2007 @09:42AM (#20260199)
    Guys come out confusing group velocity with the speed of light, from the very first equation I am beginning to suspect that it is the case. I have read the paper, and must question their conclusion as their setup is not entirely clear. This said, everybody loves surprises. Yes, IAAP.
  • Nothing new.. (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Araxen ( 561411 ) on Friday August 17, 2007 @09:54AM (#20260361)
    The effect they measured is not new. As they described correctly, the waves are evanescent modes. The thing about these modes is that they do not possess a velocity with a real number value; the index of refraction is effectively imaginary. Imaginary in the sense that you need to consider the square root of a negative number. The imaginary velocity means the modes decay away from the surface (of the prism in this case). But if you have another prism close enough, it can pick up some of the evanescent mode and convert it back to real propagating light (which travels at real light speed).

    Since imaginary speed waves die out over long distances, for which we do need "faster than light" speed, we will not be able to use this effect.
  • by capoccia ( 312092 ) on Friday August 17, 2007 @09:59AM (#20260441) Journal
    does anyone know how these scientists measured time for this experiment? what sort of equipment do you use to measure picoseconds [wikipedia.org]
  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 17, 2007 @10:03AM (#20260489)
    Apparently, Chris Lee has read the current paper, but Prof. Nimtz isn't new to the field of faster then light transmission, he demonstrated this a few years ago with a mozart symphony in a barrier shaped like fig. a in this article on popular science [popularscience.co.uk]. The results experiment have been confirmed by others, showing that the signal travels at about 4.7c in the narrow section of the barrier, if I am not mistaken. Chris Lee appears to have some understanding of the basics, but he tries to argue against the new paper with some handwaving and appealing to intuition, however both are quite useless in the field of quantum mechanics.
  • by Hoi Polloi ( 522990 ) on Friday August 17, 2007 @10:22AM (#20260695) Journal
    This is proof of the power of peer review.
  • Re:Actually (Score:3, Interesting)

    by E++99 ( 880734 ) on Friday August 17, 2007 @10:37AM (#20260927) Homepage

    However the aspects of Quantum Mechanics that Einstein didn't like (nonlocality, randomness, etc.) are firmly established and are probably not going to be "undone" by even a unified theory.

    Randomness established? What experiment could possibly establish randomness? I'm with Einstein on that one.
  • Re:quantum spin (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 17, 2007 @10:45AM (#20261037)

    Simplified, when you have two entangled electrons and measure the spin along an axis of the first, the second one immediately takes on the opposite spin of the first.
    Well, the second one immediately always had the opposite spin to the first. The wierd thing is that if you had measure spin of the first along a different axis, the second would instead have always had opposite spin to that instead, since when you measure a spin you either get an integer multiple of hbar or nowt, and whatever you measure it as becomes reality thenceforth.

    Which is all decidedly strange. It's almost like we're living in an approximation running on a superscalar processor...

     
  • by click2005 ( 921437 ) on Friday August 17, 2007 @10:45AM (#20261041)
    I've been lobbying my government to get the law of gravity repealed.
  • by ACMENEWSLLC ( 940904 ) on Friday August 17, 2007 @11:11AM (#20261397) Homepage
    I'm a n00b, or a non-quantum guy. So this may be stupid.

    If you have a light which is traveling faster than the speed of light, then isn't there a simple test that can be done to determine if this is actually happening or not? Arrange the light source and a viewer at a distance apart where the speed of light can be empirically measured. Maybe 2 light second apart, so 599584916m apart. Have the viewer remotely start the light source with something such as a laser. If the viewer can see the light turn on in less than 2 seconds, then the light is traveling faster than 299792458m/s. Otherwise, it will take 1 second for the remote signal to reach the light source, a few ns to turn on, and 1 second for the light to get back to the viewer.

    If this was legit, it'd be a great experiment for NASA as they could decrease the lag on their games...er..space ships.
  • by Hatta ( 162192 ) on Friday August 17, 2007 @11:41AM (#20261903) Journal
    No, photons do not have mass, but they do have momentum

    But since p=mv anything with momentum does have mass.

    The proper, general equation to use is E2 = m2c4 + p2c2 So in the case of a photon, m=0 so E = pc or p = E/c.

    if p=E/c and p=mv then mv=E/c. Since v=c; mc=E/c => E=mc^2. So the original argument stands. Now I have no illusions that i'm smarter than Einstein, but this is basic algebra and I don't see how it can be wrong. What's going on here?
  • by JayAEU ( 33022 ) on Friday August 17, 2007 @12:12PM (#20262467)
    I'm not sure whether anybody is aware of it, but this really is old news. Ten(!) years ago, Dr. Nimtz published an experiment on how to tunnel data (specifically Mozart's symphony) at higher speeds than light. Read about it (in German) here http://www.wissenschaft.de/wissenschaft/hintergrun d/173235.html [wissenschaft.de] and here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faster-than-light [wikipedia.org]

    There's even been coverage about his tunneling experiments occasionally in the nightly show "Space Night" broadcast on the German TV station "Bayern Alpha" http://www.br-online.de/wissen-bildung/spacenight/ [br-online.de] .

    Somehow this experiment keeps turning up now and then, causing wild speculation and discussions every time.
  • by FireFury03 ( 653718 ) <slashdot&nexusuk,org> on Friday August 17, 2007 @12:22PM (#20262679) Homepage
    The usual analogy is that it's like having a horizontal rubber sheet and placing a steel ball upon it. You'll get an indentation in the sheet. The effects on other nearby bodies, or on their movement, is basically just the consequence of that distortion of space.

    I've never understood this explanation since it uses gravity to describe gravity.

    1. Placing a weight on a rubber sheet causes a distortion in the rubber sheet because gravity is pulling it down. Without gravity the weight would just sit at the position it was placed (assuming zero velocity) with no distortion.

    2. A stationary ball placed on the sheet will be pulled into the well by gravity. If there were no gravity the ball will just sit where it is placed even though there is a distortion in the sheet.

    So it seems to me that this model does not show that gravity is a simple distortion - it just shows that a distortion combined with some "downward" force can be used to model gravity (with no explanation as to what that downward force might be).
  • by x2A ( 858210 ) on Friday August 17, 2007 @01:04PM (#20263655)
    I think it's along the lines that mass appears to pull things through time; objects with mass age. When energy loses its mass, it no longer ages, and is therefore travelling at speed C (to the energy, it travels instantaniously, to everything else, it will pass at the speed of light). This is what happens when you eg, charge a particle so that a photon is given off. If that photon gains mass (eg, is absorbed into matter, warming it slightly) it will be pulled through time, will begin to age, therefore will be travelling through less space per time, which is under the speed of light.

    The real twist here is that for an object to be accellerated past the speed of light, that object would actually 'see' the rest of the universe travelling backwards, and would arrive at its destination younger than it was when it left... so it'd simple appear to us as if the packet had travelling from the 'destination' to the 'source', at a speed below the speed of light... objects travelling faster than the speed of light, and objects travelling below it, appear indistinguishable to us.

    (or something like that :-p)

  • by vigmeister ( 1112659 ) on Friday August 17, 2007 @01:37PM (#20264293)
    You know how many nightmares I've had since I was a little kid about this? Ever since I found out about time travel, my first thought is - what if people from the future are amongst us? Maybe a good portion of these scientists and other geniuses are just time travellers who blended into a point in history that they liked best and are helping shape our future into a better one than the one they came from.

    Damn..I should write a book about this..

    Cheers!
  • Re:quantum spin (Score:3, Interesting)

    by einhverfr ( 238914 ) <chris.travers@g m a i l.com> on Friday August 17, 2007 @06:33PM (#20268755) Homepage Journal
    Personally, I think that most Quantum Physics seems to conflate observation with reentanglement.

    However, this hypothesis is actually partially testible because it implies that, if we can separate quantum particles without entangling them based on forcing them to choose paths based on states, that this should break the entanglement. I.e. if an entangled photon pair is forced to choose different fiberoptic paths based on differences in the refractive index of a part of the fiber optic cable, and this is dependant on the polarization of the photon, then we would expect under the Copenhagen interpretation either for the photons to take both paths, but for any entanglement to be broken (i.e. 2 entangled photons would take 4 paths, but be unentangled at the end).

    If on the other hand, the photons have interndependant but definite states, we would expect them to remain entangled at the end and only take 2 paths. I suspect this is the case because we know that manipulations on one part of the entangled pair are transferred and this would only impact one side of the equation.

    Is information transferrance the fundamental problem? Or is it simply the fact that we don't know how to do this without reentanglement? If we can be confident about the state of a particle at one point, does this preclude entanglement absent some other means?
  • by Llenrums ( 1144207 ) on Friday August 17, 2007 @08:05PM (#20269815) Homepage
    ...that was partly responsible for this whole mini media frenzy [google.co.uk], I just wanted to add a couple things. First off, the media coverage has been (I suppose not surprisingly) all about reporting Guenter Nimtz's sensational claims [arxiv.org] without hearing from the other side. The other side, in this case, is definitely the mainstream point of view... and Aephraim Steinberg at the Univ. of Toronto makes a very compelling counter-argument. The train analogy he uses is helpful.

    But if you want to get more geeky, you don't even need to use any quantum mechanics or even relativity to explain what Nimtz is observing. You can also explain it using good old classical physics. What Steinberg is saying is that the microwave, which is a packet of some finite size, gets slightly delayed as it hits the edge of the prism. There's a component of the wavefront that continues propagating into the gap past the reflective surface. (Technically, this is called the wavefront's "evanescent mode" -- meaning it has a wavelength measured in imaginary numbers... so there's no physical wave in this region of space.) And if there's a small gap separating the two prisms, the wavefront returns to the physical world, with a real wavelength again, back inside the second prism. That's what quantum physics would call "photon tunneling." The seemingly faster-than-light transmission speed is just the consequence of the wavefront's being slowed down at the boundary between prism and air. So the sum-total of time the wavefront spent in transit seems faster-than-light when you only look at one portion of its overall trip. But other portions of its trip (i.e. at that boundary between prism and air) were being slowed down.

    Of course to explain this in all its gory detail -- and I've kind of done a butcher job here -- requires a lot more words than we had room for in this piece. So the train analogy had to do.

    The other thing, to get even more geeky -- and extra-credit is definitely awarded to anyone who picked this up in the story -- there is no such thing as 33 cm microwaves. (Wavelength too long.) That's a typo. It's 33 mm.

    Consider this a big ol' nerdy D'OH!

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