NASA Contractors Censoring Saturn V Info 583
cybrpnk2 writes "Get ready to surrender your data sheets, study reports and blueprints of the Saturn V to stay in compliance with ITAR. Armed guards are reportedly taking down and shredding old Saturn V posters from KSC office walls that show rough internal layouts of the vehicle, and a Web site that is a source for various digitized blueprints has been put on notice it may well be next. No word yet if the assignment of a Karl Rove protege high up in NASA has any connection."
Protecting their IP? (Score:4, Insightful)
Tells you something about R&D if that 'edge' is 40+ years old...
WTF??? How do you take down? (Score:2, Insightful)
For fu&k's sake, its Saturn V !!! Not the plans to latest Anti-Gravity Cavorite
And secondly, it has been available in school/college libraries for a long time now?
So will the SS take down http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_Vtoo [wikipedia.org] ?
I guess if Rove & Co were living in ancient ages, they would have made sure that any reference to catapults were removed from Library of Alexandria?
How do you re-secretize something that is in Public Domain???
This is why we're still in the Space Stone Age (Score:5, Insightful)
So why mention it? (Score:3, Insightful)
So why bother mentioning it unless you're trying to establish some sort of political agenda of your own?
Re:This is why we're still in the Space Stone Age (Score:3, Insightful)
But the Saturn V was an expensive dead end. Ground support costs alone make it impossible to turn it into a commercial prospect. All US manufactured launch vehicles are presumably controlled by ITAR in any event. I am sure Richard Branson is going to have a fine time exporting the tier 2 system to the other countries he wants to launch from.
Re:Ballistic Missiles (Score:2, Insightful)
No worries (Score:4, Insightful)
Seriously though, this must be some kind of silly bureaucratic mixup, someone overreacting to the new directive from above etc.
As if someone trying to build a freaking ICBM would not have already picked up every bit of public information (and more) regarding US, Soviet etc rocket technology.
Re:This is why we're still in the Space Stone Age (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:This is why we're still in the Space Stone Age (Score:5, Insightful)
Why just the Saturn V? (Score:5, Insightful)
I would think older, simpler rocket designs would be more applicable to the needs of an emerging space power or rogue terrorist group. Why not censor and confiscate information about the older Titans that carried Gemini? Or the Redstone, Atlas, or even Little Joe rockets that propelled the Mercury program? Sure, they don't have the glamour or cachet of the Saturn V (which was, and still is, a beautiful machine), but I'm sure there are a lot of old technical manuals and such about those floating around. (I live in Central Florida, and have been to many estate sales of former NASA employees where there are tons of such material available. And, yes, I have profited quite nicely from them on eBay, thank you.)
But this is a futile effort -- 40 years of being in the public domain is a bit much to reverse and cover up now. Why do so many people still think that you can rein this stuff in after it's already been so widely disseminated? Especially in the Internet era -- it's like when someone wants something taken down from YouTube or some other site when millions have already viewed and downloaded the file, and copies and copies of copies and copies of copies of copies are multiplying like bunnies through the "tubes." Nowadays, once something is "out there" it's OUT, and you can no more undo the damage than you can "unexplode" a bomb.
kdawson, stop (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:So why mention it? (Score:5, Insightful)
Ridiculous (Score:5, Insightful)
That all said, anybody who would consider using a Saturn 5 rocket as any sort of weapon is absolutely insane. The Saturn rockets were huge, and designed to deliver massive payloads (all of Skylab was launched via a single Saturn booster). The capacity of a Saturn rocket is just shy of 118 times as massive as the largest nuclear device ever constructed.
Needless to say, it'd be pretty damn difficult for anybody to hide a rocket that big, along with that much nuclear material.
Smaller rockets are scarier, because bombs don't need to be particularly heavy in order to cause serious damage, and because they can be easily concealed and launched at sea.
What difference does it make? (Score:4, Insightful)
So why bother mentioning it unless you're trying to establish some sort of political agenda of your own?
If they're actually doing the deed, and it appears they are, what difference does the motivation of the whistle blower make? Why would you defend this heavy handed stupidity under any circumstances?
Anyone with the wherewithal to develop a launch vehicle can simply purchase one from the Russians...already assembled and working, complete with the ground support crew to service it. If the Russians can't handle the order they could go to the Chinese, India, or Pakistan. They're not going to try duplicating a multi-stage liquid fuel lift vehicle based on 30 year old technology.
How does that old phrase go? Strain out a gnat and swallow a camel? Something like that.
Hiding information never works. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Why just the Saturn V? (Score:5, Insightful)
It does work after a fashion. Instead of working tireless only that grand bang that will make loads of smoke and noise, kids sit bored staring into the blue screen until they go completely brainnumb. The process produces easily controlled model taxpaying consumer-producers which is what the government wants. Bingo, goal achieved.
Re:Of course (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Ridiculous (Score:3, Insightful)
Seems like closing the barndoor after the chickens have already flown the coop though.
or maybe (Score:3, Insightful)
The crazy conspiracy theorist in me thinks that it might be a little worse than that. Maybe, they don't care about the Saturn V at all. Maybe its nothing more than a test, a social experiment of sorts. A test, of how effectively they can rewrite history and how much the public will care. And let us hope they are not successful, as if this is true and they are successful, we have much bigger concerns than the preservation of the history of space exploration on our hands.
Or maybe the crazy conspiracy theorist in me is just a little too crazy and I'm talking out of my ass. But we must watch this.
Re:Ridiculous (Score:2, Insightful)
Now one of the heaviest (if not the heaviest?) nuclear device ever built was the Sausage device (the first staged hydrogen bomb, exploded in the Ivy Mike test) and weighted some 70 tons with cyrogenic supply equipment.
I know that this weapon wasn't deliverable at all, but even Fat Man weighted around 4.5 tons.
Re:WTF??? How do you take down? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's probably because of the new CEV program (which is totally not just an Apollo redux... the CEV program will feature more seats). If terrorists know exactly where the join was between the first and second stages of the booster rocket, they could... uh...
How about this: we can't say exactly what they could do because it's classified! But trust me, they could totally do stuff.
Really.
Would the US government lie to you? Are you calling us liars? Why do you hate freedom?????
Re:WTF??? How do you take down? (Score:3, Insightful)
I first heard the term in isbn 1400042216 [amazon.com]. Probably comes from Chomsky or something. It's really a fitting term though, when you consider what republics used to stand for compared to what they stand for now...
Re:WTF??? How do you take down? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Ballistis Missiles (Score:3, Insightful)
Yeah, why use any of the Russian designs available when you could spend 1,000 times as much building a Saturn V? At least then you'd have bragging right of being able to nuke the moon when your country goes bankrupt.
Re:WTF??? How do you take down? (Score:5, Insightful)
What happened to my country, and will you cowards please give it back?
Re:WTF??? How do you take down? (Score:3, Insightful)
Maybe, maybe not. If she does anything worth bashing, then no doubt we will see the stories. All politicians aren't created equal: some are shittier than others, and Bush is one of the bad ones. I think you mistake "bias in favor of common sense" for "liberal bias"; anyone who consistently does stupid shit with my country will draw criticism, no matter their party.
Re:Ballistis Missiles (Score:3, Insightful)
If that's "the real reason," then we are *screwed*! No government that thinks it's protecting its citizens by tearing down Saturn V posters is actually protecting its citizens at all.
Then again, because there is *no good reason at all* to tear down Saturn V posters, I'm willing to believe whatever they say it is. It'll be retarded every which way.
Re:Stupid guards (Score:4, Insightful)
No, it governs the nationality of the people who are allowed access to the information. If something is ITAR controlled only US citizens and green card holders can have access to it.
ITAR applies to almost anything that could plausibly be used to construct a spacecraft or launcher.
ITAR can make international collaborations very awkward, and even makes it hard to work with US universities with the large number of non-US people working at any major university. Some US universities don't even allow ITAR controlled data on their campuses (presumably to avoid the chance of being prosecuted).
I don't know whether ITAR is slowing down the development of weapons by foreign governments and terrorist groups. But, in my experience, it certainly is slowing down the development of US science and technology.
Re:What difference does it make? (Score:2, Insightful)
What is it about the Bush administration that makes ordinary liberals abandon their principals and turn into ordinary hypocrites? As long as they're sticking it to the administration, people are perfectly fine with assigning guilt and punishment first, and finding out what really happened second.
Re:WTF??? How do you take down? (Score:3, Insightful)
That being said, the Saturn V was a relatively cheap way of delivering payload to space. There is plenty to be learned from old designs, even if they aren't duplicated. If you've kept up with the news the last few years then you've seen North Korea master nuclear technology, but not the missiles to deliver it. While we seem powerless to stop these countries from acquiring nuclear weapons, we don't need to help them develop the technology to deliver those weapons.
Re:WTF??? How do you take down? (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:private sector (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:WTF??? How do you take down? (Score:3, Insightful)
So why do these countries want atomic weapons? Three reasons. First, to convey political power in your region, which is why Iran wants them. Second, to try to get communications lines established with the US. (North Korea) Third, to prevent any potential future invasion. (Iran, North Korea, India, and Pakistan).. Starting to see my point? None of these include using atomic weapons in a miltary stike..
Also, dont believe the argument of "they could give it to the terrorists and use a dirty bomb". This argument is ignorant as well, because everyone knows that all nuclear base material can always be tracked back to its manufacturing source simply by the way it is purified. If Iran was ever to give some of material to some group that would use it against the US or any of its NATO allies, there is little doubt that it would be the end of Iran as we know it... And Iran knows this. (Note: This is not an arbitrary decision either, but rather is specified in the NATO charter)
Finally, if you think Iran (ie Persians) are just a bunch of crazy people, then consider this... Name the last time Iran invaded any nation? Go ahead.. Ill wait... (And no the 8 year Iran/Iraq war was not started by Iran)
Re:WTF??? How do you take down? (Score:3, Insightful)
Because one of them wags a stick around for food and the other claims that Germany should take responsibility for their own war crimes? WTF? This makes them "tangible enemies"? How, exactly, are either of these nations affecting YOUR life in the least?
The most "tangible" enemy of the American people at this point in time is the American Government's overreaching power grabs and the American people's consumptive apathy.
Stop giving up MY freedoms to ease YOUR fear!
Re:WTF??? How do you take down? (Score:2, Insightful)
No, the defense department has had them for a bit longer than 5 years. There were some pretty damned impressive displays of their effect on civilian populations about 62 years ago. That was terrorism on a scale not seen since.
A foreign policy of "shoot first and don't bother asking questions" is a greater enemy to the US then any sovereign nation ever could be, especially coming from a nation with a track record such as ours.
Whatever reason there was for the suppression of the Saturn V plans I'm sure it has nothing to do with spreading peace and understanding, nor coming to common ground to work out differences.
Re:Why just the Saturn V? (Score:3, Insightful)
I expect in the Internet Age, it would be not unlike pouring the feathers out of a pillow during a hurricane.
Re:WTF??? How do you take down? (Score:4, Insightful)
So you think it's reasonable in a free and just society for armed men to go into a private company's offices, rip publically available posters of 40+ year old technology off the walls and destroy them in the name of national security?
Think about this for a second. The Saturn didn't have computers on board, it's older than the computer age. When it was designed, you probably couldn't fit a computer into it's entire cargo area. It doesn't make sense on any level to try to even pretend that the technology should be classified, it's clearly a sign of massive incompetence on the part of the Bush cronies who were recently put in charge at NASA. These people have no relevent education or experience, hell one of the morons was the second in command at FEMA during Katrina and now's he's got a different plush job at NASA where he's screwing up just he did a FEMA.
It will probably take decades to clean up the mess that Bush is making of the U.S.
Re:WTF??? How do you take down? (Score:5, Insightful)
I see cowardice whenever someone tries to justify intolerable abuse of power on the basis that maybe it will make it harder for some unknown enemy to strike at us.
Brave men demand more than vague threats and hand waving before they surrender their basic rights, cowards don't.
Re:This is why we're still in the Space Stone Age (Score:3, Insightful)
The founding fathers attempted to work within the existing legal frameworks before declaring independence. "No taxation without representation" was simply a request to vote on issues that affected them. Without a nonviolent mechanism to resolve differences the founding fathers were forced into violence. Today, on the other hand, there are numerous world wide, regional, local, you name it, organizations that can be worked within to resolve problems. Terrorists are not patriots because they went to violence first -- not last.
Point missed, again (Score:2, Insightful)
I think most people here are completely missing the point.
Someone in a position of authority, in the United States, insisted that a publicly available poster be taken down and destroyed, then came by with security forces to ensure compliance. Compliance, for whatever reason, was achieved.
I'm in Canada. I'd fucking laugh at someone who told me to take down and destroy an inoffensive poster. I'd laugh even harder if they came by with a security guard too. In fact, I'm sure the security guard would be laughing too. And then I'd tell my fucking co-workers the tale and we'd all be slapping our knees and shaking our heads. And the poster would still be hanging there, having become a major office conversation piece.
I wonder what Stanley Milgram (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment [wikipedia.org]) would say about this...
Blueprints? You mean line drawings.... (Score:3, Insightful)
1) it would take them forever
2) when it inevitably exploded on launch, good odds that it would take all of their certainly-rare warheads, it would also likely take out all of their semi-capable scientific minds as well (if the explosion didn't get them, the post-explosion witch hunt for the scapegoat would)
Building a Saturn V *is* rocket science, you're not getting anything from a poster that's terribly critical anyway.
Pogo issue? (Score:4, Insightful)
Aha, found a link [wikipedia.org].
This caused a lot of problems for Apollo 6 and Apollo 13, the latter of which of course later had much more serious problems.
It's not obvious that you would want to reproduce this, necessarily.
Re:WTF??? How do you take down? (Score:3, Insightful)
No, actually I said that I doubt it would do any good at all. I doubt you could put much useful on a piece of paper that size. Hopefully, along with the posters, they classified the pieces of information that would be useful. Don't be fooled into thinking that just because its old it isn't useful. In fact, I remember a conversation a few years back about scrapping the space shuttle and going back to the Saturn design because it worked so well.
I take issue with the permeating hatred for the US and its government and everything it does. I can't understand how normally intelligent people can be so quick to categorize everything as evil or a conspiracy. Sometimes people are just doing their job, or the best they can. Personally, I don't see what freedom is getting taken away. There are so many worse things going on this world than you losing your stupid poster.
It will probably take decades to clean up the mess that Bush is making of the U.S.
Probably. But bitching about your poster getting taken away is so unproductive in helping clean up that mess. Personally, I find the fact that habeus corpus has been suspended as way more troubling. I'm concerned by the fact the Russia executes journalists that speak out against the government and poisons people with Polonium. I'm horrified that an American could ever treat someone as inhumanely as those pictures from Abu Ghraib. I guess that just me and my messed up priorities. Lets get back to this poster thing.
Re:WTF??? How do you take down? (Score:2, Insightful)
The suspension of Habeas Corpus was done in the name of national security.
Torture at Abu Ghraib was condoned and encouraged in the name of national security.
Public information is being hidden in the name of national security.
I'm sure the Russians have some national security reason for assassinating journalists.
This isn't an unrelated incident it's just part of the pattern of abuse, paranoia, and despotism that the U.S. government has been engaged in since 9-11.
Re:WTF??? How do you take down? (Score:3, Insightful)
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/10/08/korea [cnn.com]
And I'm not surprised you missed the point...
You grossly misunderestimate (hehe) our enemies. The Theocracy in charge of Iran is first a religious organization, and second a government. Perhaps you have been lucky enough to never meet anyone religious enough to actually want the apocolypse to happen. I have, and don't put the same trust in their ability to think rationally anymore. Moreover, Iran would be unlikely to attack us so long as their hatred is focused on Israel. Iran's president has said that he will wipe Israel from the map and that all it would take is one nuclear weapon.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/10/26/news/iran.
It is well known that that quote is a mistranslation, either deliberate or not.
Iran's president has said he wants to remove the Israeli administration, not whipe out the country. Doing the later would actually directly conflict with the scripture he so strongly believes in.
I suggest you go read the various transcripts of his speech and pay close attention to how different that specific piece gets translated depending on the source of the transcript, and those around me who happen to actually understand the language he speaks say without exception that the 'we want to wipe Israel from the planet' translation is wrong.
Says who? You? Get real. Those may seem like great reasons to you. However you ignore a fourth reason: Iran denies Israel's right to exist. Let me repeat, the Iranian government would love to see every Jew in the middle east dead. Perhaps you missed this development:
http://www.iranholocaustdenial.com/ [iranholocaustdenial.com]
Parhaps you read too much propaganda and are absolutely completely clueless as to how the real world looks
Parhaps you should start realizing that whenever someone even suggests wanting to research the truth of some small detail of the holocaust story, they are instantly painted as anti semetic, and maybe this president of Iran made use of that for the serious amount of publicity it would get him? Maybe you also don't realize that Israel (which definitely has a right to exist btw) is partial cause of some major problems in the middle east, and it is easy to make use of that to increase your popularity in the region?
I'm not sure if you consider yourself intelligent, but I suppose you do. I do consider it a sign of intelligence however when you can actually realize that your opinion on something has little value if it is based on a one sided version of the story.
You arrogance belies your ignorance. From my memory:
- Iran supported Hezbollah with money and weapons and people during the Israeli-Lebanon conflict less than a year ago.
- More recently, Iran crossed into international waters and attacked British troops, taking some hostage. That was in March.
- US forces have arrested a number of Iranian military units operating illegally within Iraq. Is sending troops into a country and invasion?
USA supported various groups in southern America that did things like throw over elected governments, torture and dissapear people who didn't agree with them, kill and loot randomly and what not.
Therefore, the USA and everyone in it are a bunch of bandits who invaded the southern Americas.
The USA has sent its army into various states there as well over the years btw.
I suppose you disagree with what I just said, and might think its absured. Well, I definitely agree.
I do however apply that same standard to others, and find your reasoning about Iran as absurd.
Re:WTF??? How do you take down? (Score:1, Insightful)
In other words you haven't really progressed beyond the mentality of the crusaders that went off to the holy land to fight a thousand years ago.
the fact that you are as backward in your thinking as the fundamentalist muslims that fly planes into buildings etc isn't so unusual; after all there are stupid people everywhere.
the problem is that this 'medieval' lack of sophistication and fearfulness, (and perhaps even religious delusion?) that seems to inform your world-view is very beneficial to people in the business of selling oil and weapons; it allows them to send you and people like you to fight against whatever bogey men they have decided to create, or at the least, can depend upon your support and complicity.
you, my friend, are a tool, in more ways than one
Re:So why mention it? (Score:1, Insightful)