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Comments: 112 +-   Team Claims Synthetic Life Feat on Saturday June 30 2007, @04:24AM

Posted by Zonk on Saturday June 30 2007, @04:24AM
from the it's-alive-it's-aliiiiiive dept.
biotech
science
gertvs writes "According to the BBC scientists in the US have taken a step towards producing life from scratch in the laboratory by having successfully transplanted an entire genome from one bacterium cell to another. This technique could possibly lead to the creation of 'designer' microbes producing fuel or help cleaning toxic waste. 'The ultimate plan is to stitch together artificial chromosomes, proteins and other building blocks with the aim of jumpstarting their designer microbe to life. But Dr. [Craig] Venter concedes that this may be a long way away, but he says he has taken an important key step towards that goal. His team, essentially, snatched the body of another life-form and invaded it with a new genetic code. This, he says, will be a key tool in testing the artificial chromosomes - or DNA bundles - he plans to make. '"
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  • Origins Of Life? (Score:4, Funny)

    by Umbral Blot (737704) on Saturday June 30 2007, @04:28AM (#19698197) Homepage
    Reminds me of a certain cartoon: http://www.angryflower.com/goinaf.gif [angryflower.com]

  • Patents.... (Score:5, Funny)

    by king-manic (409855) on Saturday June 30 2007, @04:30AM (#19698201)
    Wait didn't another firm patent artificial life. The gall of these people, working hard to create something new. Thats simply un-American. They should really make vague patents wait for someone else to do the work and sue.
  • ...almost sure, that we will se a whole lot of paired headlines.

    "designed microbe is able to clean water from toxic waste" and a few months/year later: "water-cleaning microbe causes " and some random illness/problem. genetic engineering is full of possibilities, it's the humans that haven't shown responsible behaviour with new technologies.

  • Imagination needed (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    This technique could possibly lead to the creation of 'designer' microbes producing fuel or help cleaning toxic waste.

    Oh come on! Have an imagination! This could make some really killer bioweapons! Or we could mine deer for oil. Convert puppies into kittens. Give George Bush a brain. Think of the implications!

  • Penrose (Score:2, Interesting)

    by headkase (533448)
    If Penrose turns out to be right (The Emperor's New Mind) and quantum-like operations are needed to truly reproduce intelligence then inevitably at some point in the future we will have artificial intelligence even if we have to program some meat to use the same building materials nature used with us.
    Other uses could be to adapt humans to non-terran environments. Base-line in brain just tailored to an alternate environment.

    • Re:Penrose (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Cyberax (705495) on Saturday June 30 2007, @06:06AM (#19698461)
      Penrose was probably smocking crack when he wrote this book.

      You definitely don't NEED quantum computers to reproduce intelligence. That's because IF cells contain quantum computers, then they must work in cycles: load initial data, process it, read data. Reading computation results stops quantum computer (collapses it to one state). Even Penrose admits that quantum computers can't work more than a fraction of second in a living cell.

      Quantum computers can be simulated by classical computers (they're computationally equivalent), so quantum computers are not NEEDED to simulate human mind.

      However, quantum computers might make good accelerators for neural processing (there are several publications on this).
      • Well if quantum computing is good at parallel processing, then it would be good for animals to simulate multiple "what if" situations rapidly.

        For example a background process considering possible escape routes: "what if I jumped on to (various portions of) that branch or other branches, would they hold my weight, would they lead to better escape routes?". All considered in parallel.

        Then the animals start simulating each other (predicting the decisions of a potential competitor/predator is very useful), and
        • Nope, Penrose's quantum computers work on a sub-cellular level.

          Thinking about branches requires work of more than one neuron, so quantum computers are not really significant here (they can't talk to each other through cell walls).
        • AFAIR my university's course, Turing machine with random number generator is computationally equivalent to a common Turing machine.
  • "This technique could possibly lead to the creation of 'designer' microbes producing fuel or help cleaning toxic waste."

    Well it's perfect that we could just program a microbe to solve all our messy problems just like snapping my fingers.

    Now.. some mutations have been observed when the microbe was released in the wild. Of course, releasing in the wild means that your creation kinda gets a life on its own. Some mutations have been observed.

    Mutation one turns the form of liquid metal that wants to kill John Ko

    • Re:Mutation (Score:4, Funny)

      by BiggerIsBetter (682164) <richard&vems,co,nz> on Saturday June 30 2007, @06:06AM (#19698467) Homepage
      But I bet we could engineer a microbe to kill those first microbes.

      "No, that's the beautiful part. When wintertime rolls around, the gorillas simply freeze to death."
      • I think your confusing real-world mutation with movie/sci-fi mutation. They are hardly the same.
        Mutations are almost always:
        1.Useless
        2.Harmful in some way to the creature
        3.Lost in the next generation(assuming the creature can breed)

        So, a little more 5 legged frog, and a little less sharks with freakin laser beams.

        You're boring, you know that? But, ok, I'll accept your science ways, and take the 5 legged frog. But only if can laugh in an evil voice and has an army of minions trying to take over the world.
  • This is very exciting. I took a class from someone who ended up working at the Venter Institute, so I'm pumped to see that they've made major progress.

    On the other hand, the field of Artificial Life is small. Something on the order of a thousand other people are qualified to talk about this intelligently. So my hopes for discussion are pretty much nil.
    • But did your professor/teacher tell you how much of an egocentric ass Craig Venter is?
        • You have to be talking about Stephen Wolfram.

          OK, Craig Venter is humble compared to that moron. Smart - but still a moron.
        • You know, what happened to the scientist that just did their research and made their contribution to society without all the ego self-masturbation, self promotion, self-written bios that basically compare themselves to God? I understand that a certain amount of self promotion is sometimes necessary when forming companies, etc. But these guys take it to levels that would make Lord Farquar jealous.

  • So they pretty much did... (Score:3, Informative)

    by arakon (97351) on Saturday June 30 2007, @04:59AM (#19698297) Homepage
    what a Virus already does. They took DNA, and implanted it into another cell and the cell ran the DNA instruction set... Just like cells are wont to do. Seems like a pretty "Cut & Paste" idea to me; hardly "creating Life", or even steps toward it.

    We'll have Artificial Intelligence (synthetic life by my standards) I think, long before we're actually engineering proteins and building an original base DNA sequence of our own making and creating the cell to run it from scratch.

    At which point our machine overlords will take care of the rest. :P

    • They did something very different from a virus (Score:5, Insightful)

      by wisebabo (638845) on Saturday June 30 2007, @06:51AM (#19698611) Journal
      A virus (DNA or RNA) when injected into a cell utilizes the existing cellular machinery to make mass copies of its own genetic code, encase them in proteins that its genetic code has transcribed and explodes the cell to allow the newly created viral particles out. In a few cases (retroviruses) the virus becomes reverse transcripted into the cell's DNA and can stay there hidden (like HIV) for a long time, sometimes even reproducing with the cell (a possible source of "junk" DNA or even some cancers). Notice that a virus has far less than the minimum number of genes to create the cellular mechanisms for life let alone reproduction.

      Venter's group has taken a cell and replaced ALL of the original DNA with the newly introduced DNA. (I believe a virus replaces nothing, it merely adds its own genetic code). While the newly introduced DNA comes from another bacterium, there is no reason to think that the DNA from a completely "man-made" source couldn't be introduced instead. By introducing fewer and fewer genes, Venter (and others) hope to find the "minimum" number of genes needed to make a living creature.

      Once this minimal life is created is new, possibly never before seen in nature, genes can be introduced one at a time. Because these genes are added to a "clean" slate, their functionality and efficiency can be controlled and optimized. Kinda like a much more powerful version of the transgenic mice they use in research where they selectively eliminate just ONE gene from the mouse strain to see what its effect is. I believe they have strains for all/almost all the thousands of genes in mice so they can evaluate them for various genetic ailments, disease resistance and whatnot. (Harvard was the first to get a patent on the genetic code of one of these mice: the first patented life. Go Harvard!)

      Here instead of removing one gene from the entire set (to an admittedly MUCH more complex organism), Venter will be able to control ALL the genes in his bacteria. This will greatly reduce/eliminate unwanted interactions (because the "unneeded" genes have been eliminated) allowing R&D to go much more quickly. Thus the optimism on creating oil producing bacteria. (Please note that "unneeded" refers to our needs not the bacteria, we can make a bacteria that is alive but is utterly dependent on vital nutrients that "wild" bacteria make themselves. Since our bacteria is simpler, we will use it not the wild version.)
      • Speigelman's monster was already pretty damn small: the smallest reproducing/evolving version had, what, like 48 base pairs TOTAL or something? True, it needed to live in an environment where it's enzyme and raw materials already existed, but still, I don't see an "organism" getting much smaller than THAT.
      • Here instead of removing one gene from the entire set (to an admittedly MUCH more complex organism), Venter will be able to control ALL the genes in his bacteria. This will greatly reduce/eliminate unwanted interactions (because the "unneeded" genes have been eliminated) allowing R&D to go much more quickly.

        Exactly. You could do the same thing that Venter is doing using a virus to infect bacteria, but the real goal is to be able to strip out all the excess cellular processes that would otherwise be

      • We'll have Artificial Intelligence (synthetic life by my standards) I think, long before we're actually engineering proteins and building an original base DNA sequence of our own making and creating the cell to run it from scratch.

        I highly doubt it. Think of the relative complexities of a computer capable of simulating the human brain (and by that I mean capable of running several hundred million threads, each of which runs an interruptable O(2^n) algorithm quickly enough to respond to external stimuli) to

  • Imaging Ebola that spreads like a flu. Or mosquitos with black widow spider venom. Genetic engineering is probably essential for our long term survival as a species (for example, modern medicine and cultural values sabotage natural selection). But I am not sure we are ready for it at the moment.

    • Imaging Ebola that spreads like a flu.
      It can't, it kills the host to quickly. Turns out there are a lot of limits on these sorts of things. If its real deadly, it won't spread very well because everyone who got sick is dead. If it not that deadly the immune system gets time to adapt. Similar arguments apply to mosquito's.

      But I am not sure we are ready for it at the moment.
      So when will we be ready? Maybe this is as good as it gets.

    • Genetic engineering is probably essential for our long term survival as a species
      Right because there's no other way we could have survived the last few million years.

      (for example, modern medicine and cultural values sabotage natural selection)
      Or do they just change the selection pressures.

       
      • Our current selection pressures do not include the ability to be born, live and reproduce without assistance of medicine and technology, let alone forage for food in the wilderness. If technology was suddenly to fail, or if we face an epidemic or political unrest, this could mean the whole humanity going extinct. Even defects we consider benign, like bad teeth or color blindness, would be fatal to a band of survivors trying to form a settlement after a catastrophe.
  • When do I get to start playing God from the comfort of my own home?
  • And one of these days those feet are gonna walk all over you.

    Oh feat, right. As you were.
  • I suppose the synthetic life has got to walk around on something. But when are they going to do the rest of the body?

  • "That chromosome was transplanted, inserted through the cell walls, the cell membrane of a second species and, after several days of growth and cell division, the original chromosome in the cell disappears and we have cells containing only the transplanted chromosome."

    Sounds like somthing out of a science-fiction horror movie.
  • Slashdot title --> "Team Claims Synthetic Life Feat"

    No they don't. From the article....

    "What's in this paper is the result of taking a native chromosome from one species," Dr Venter explained.

    "That chromosome was transplanted, inserted through the cell walls, the cell membrane of a second species and, after several days of growth and cell division, the original chromosome in the cell disappears and we have cells containing only the transplanted chromosome."

    The took genetic material from one species and i

    • You missed the part about how this was the last big hurdle for implanting a man-sequenced code into a cell. Which is what they are going to do next. So, yes, this IS a big feat in the field of creating synthetic life: according to them, it's pretty much the last piece of the puzzle prior to actually doing it.
  • Technologically: transfer of genome from one cell to another has been done on much more complex level: Dolly the sheep anyone (I claim that complexity of eukyotic cell beats the addtional complexity of inserting DNA vs injecting the nucleus)? True, this is the first time I here about researchers that have induced a bacterium to take up the entire genome of another, related bacterium [sciencemag.org]. But it leaves me in utter bewilderment of how that is "transforming"? Bacterias are much less epigenetic compared to higher f
  • IT'S ALIVE! Wahahahahaha
  • I thought it said, "Teen Claims Synthetic Life Feast".

    I need another beer.

  • Well, what more proof do you need?

    /me ducks.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by stoolpigeon (454276) *
      I don't see how. They didn't actually create life from scratch - they took a step towards it. They took one form of already living thing and moved it to something else - by design, using their brains. I'm not advocating intelligent design here- or trying to start an argument about it - just pointing out that this development doesn't seem to really 'put a big hole' in that idea.
      • I agree that ID really doesn't have much to lose by this, but certainly a lot of the theological and philosophical ideas that undergird creationism in general do. For starters, it's pretty much the final death-knell to the idea of vitalism or that there's something special about "life" outside of having the right physical and chemical components.

        In fact that latter idea is pretty critical to a lot of the less nuanced creationist arguments against a natural origin of life: there have been plenty of claims t
        • If we can design something then you don't need to posit a god as the designer of life on Earth. Thus intelligent design, even if true, would no longer be a argument for the existence of god (if it ever was one), only for some motivated beings who evolved under more favorable conditions to seed life here.
        • I don't follow - I don't think anyone are arguing that an omnipotent being might not be able to create cells like the ones on earth today.
      • Even if they did make a new cell from scratch (random atoms lying around, I suppose), that would not put a hole in ID at all. ID claims that life is too complex to have arisen out of the primordial soup by chance alone, so it must have been designed by some intelligence. Showing that it is possible for an intelligence (scientists in a lab) to design life (make a new cell from scratch) would in some indirect and not very useful sense support ID (by demonstrating that it was possible for ID to have taken pl

    • IMHO, life is not something that can be made by man. All they are doing in TFA is a bunch of fancy chemistry.

      When you come right down to it, life is fancy chemistry and nothing more. Life could also be described as "really fancy physics," if you wanted to. There is no clear line between when chemistry stops and biology begins, hence the term
      biochemistry.

      True life is not made by one of life's own evolutionary steps, which is all that man is.

      On the contrary, all life is made by one of life's own evolutionar

    • If by "animal", you mean "any life-form that as a zygote look sufficiently similar to what you started with, as a zygote", and if you by "turned into" means "(through a hypothesized theoretical process) replace genetic code inside zygote with genetic code from zygote of wanted result", then the answer is obviously "yes". If you mean in practical terms, the answer is "no". And if you believe that you theoretically can change the zygote of a flatworm into one of Tyrannosaurus Rex, I doubt that it can be done,
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