Europe's Galileo Program In Serious Trouble 403
elrous0 writes "Various news outlets are reporting that Europe's Galileo program is facing a serious financial and technical crisis and may be permanently stalled. The European program, designed to be a superior answer to the US's GPS — and, more critically, not controlled by the US — has faced numerous hurdles since its inception. To date the Galileo program has succeeded in launching only one of its 30 planned satellites and has been beset by delays and cost overruns. Apparently, squabbling between the eight companies in the consortium behind the project is responsible for many of the problems. The project is now threatened with an EU takeover. But some doubt that even an infusion of EU capital can save the flagging program."
I'm not surprised... (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm a EU citizen, and I applauded the Galileo program. Especially, because at least we would gain a bit independence to the US. (I was for a European Army too, provided that all national armied be disbanded... That idea was highly critisized by the US too). Anyway, this is typical EU technology stuff. Good idea in the beginning, bureaucracy kicks in, budgets get busted, scientists get frustrated and leave for the greener pastures in the US (or elsewhere), etc... etc... etc...
Eurofighter... same kind of mess. The only thing the EU is good at is creating papers and using my tax money. Okay, that and technically they are responsible for keeping peace (within EU members states) for over 50 years. A fucking long time in Europes history.... Well, it's a high price for peace, but it's the only reason I'm not against the EU.
Re:Sounds Familiar (Score:5, Insightful)
Reinventing the wheel. For SPITE! (Score:2, Insightful)
Emotions wax and wane. If you project is based off little more than the sentiment of "Fscking Americans...", so too will the ability of the project to function.
Is a re-implementation of a GPS-like system a laudable goal? SURE!
Is the "Fscking Americans..." sentiment a good basis for such a goal? NO EFFING WAY!
And, if the simple goal of having a product like this outside of American control remains the primary goal, it's just doomed to fail. All you'll do is spur the people working on the GPS system to out-innovate you and out-compete you.
"Gailileo offers X resolution"
"GPS offers variable resolutions up to 3X+1, is time-tested and stable, has thousands of apps in-place already, yadda yadda, oh and did we mention yadda? Oh, and our licensing terms will cost you less than half what any competitors can offer you. Do the math..."
Obvious (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:I'm not surprised... (Score:2, Insightful)
I'm all for you guys being independant from us. Maybe we can stop spending money on bases over there.
Just remember who was nice to you many times in the past.
Comment removed (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I'm not surprised... (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:I'm not surprised... (Score:2, Insightful)
Huh? The EU started out as, and effectively remains, an economic organization. How did they "keep the peace".
If anything, I would credit the relative peacefulness of Europe in the last 50 years to cohesiveness against the external soviet threat, combined with the massive US subsidy of European defense budgets. With the mainly US funded NATO as their defense umbrella, Europe could divert funds that would otherwise have been spent on weapons to social programs. This has kept the level of internal and external strife to a minimum - why fight when everyone is fat and happy.
Don't worry - it won't last. Sooner or later, European countries will have to start footing their defense bill. This will start to impact their social services, already strained by demographics (aging population + low birthrate). This, combined with the civil unrest already brewing, and I predict we'll see open warfare between (soon-to-be) former EU nations within 20 years.
Like you said - Europe's been at peace for "a fucking long time", but 50 years isn't enouigh to change huma nature, and the nature of humans is to make war.
Re:Piggyback US (Score:5, Insightful)
Beneath the PR gloss the US government has always acted in its own interest to a large extent (don't take that as a criticism, any government in its position would the same). However, in recent years this has become significantly more pronounced with the hawkish arrogance of Bush and co. In particular, Tony Blair's conceit that he has any real influence over the Bush administration is laughable, and has been for some time now. Bush will only do what Blair wants if he was going to do it anyway; out of the PR highlight, U.S. government staff have admitted as much.
I'm sure you'll excuse me if I say that I don't trust the Bush-led government one fucking bit. When push came to shove, if they were forced to choose, they'd act in their own self-interest. Even if the US Democrats won the next election, there's no guarantee that they'd be significantly better, or how long it would be before the Bush-types regain power.
As I said, I personally think it's undesirable to rely on the US-controlled system. You can take this as an anti-U.S. rant or not; what it comes down to IMHO is that we need a system under our own control, not something that can be yanked from under our feet if it proves inconvenient to our allies.
Re:I'm not surprised... (Score:5, Insightful)
Why there's nobody fighting: (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously: they have a waiting list to get in. How slick is that? You've got countries falling over themselves, remaking themselves in your image, in order to be part of your empire. Not too shabby.
Re:I'm not surprised... (Score:2, Insightful)
You've been at peace for the first time in 60 years (I think that's the longest stretch so far?) thanks to the United States of America. Without the US, you'd be posting in Russian (or German. Or not at all). Wait a minute, that's not true if you consider the Yugoslavia debacle, which you had surprisingly little will to solve until the United States practically forced you to. And then essentially solved for you anyway.
You've been perfecting the art of killing each other (and everyone else) for the past thousand years or so. You've started, fought and alternatively won or lost by far the most violent, protracted and destructive conflicts in the history of humanity. And you wonder why the US complained about your idea of having a unified Army?
Nothing personal, but I'd rather ya'll sweat the petty stuff and let the US be the world's police. They don't do it all that well, but I'm pretty sure the alternatives would be worse.
Re:I'm not surprised... (Score:2, Insightful)
The main problem (if you can call it one) is that the EU isn't a country. You may take your share of blame for your NiC because your countrymen put him in power. Who should we blame for a failing EU? People from Poland, Romania or Malta? They don't speak my language, don't read or watch the same media, can't vote on the same parties. There is no such thing as a 'European'.
The only similarity is that we use the same currency, it ends at that. The EU was founded as an economic union, and became a very successful one. The problem is that it went on to other facets of life, and became a bludgeoning bureaucratic monstrosity with failures like the new Airbus and Galileo.
This is the main reason why we Dutchies, together with the French, voted against the EU 'constitution'. We're perfectly happy without the EU wanting to assimilate us into a 'federation'.
Re:I'm not surprised... (Score:5, Insightful)
They'll be able to do what the US is doing right now, as the Euro replaces the US Dollar as the world reserve currency they'll be able to print Euros without producing inflation within the EU. The inflation will be externalised. Essentially, the rest of the world will finance the EU defence budget.
Re:I'm not surprised... (Score:4, Insightful)
A weak dollar is actually a good way to fix outsourcing, as US goods become cheaper... in fact its the only way that the market by itself really has to fix outsourcing and trade deficits.
As for the Yuan... it has performed where it has because the Chinese government has been more or less subsidizing its own currency, which I suppose a more communist government is capable of. No matter how good the opportunity, China can't sustain a 9% growth rate forever, and when they slow down, their currency will have to come crashing to the floor, or we'll be mopping up Chinese bonds to fund their debt.
The global economy is a revolving door, and no one is spared, no matter how high and mighty they think they are. The state of the US dollar testifies to that.
EU management prowess (Score:2, Insightful)
Can't wait until you all get fed up with US control of the Internet, and decide to make your own internet. Good luck with that one too.
Re:I'm not surprised... (Score:3, Insightful)
By being an economic organization. It's not in any country's interest to wage war with its closest trade partners.
Comment removed (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Oh, don't be dense (Score:4, Insightful)
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Why there's nobody fighting: (Score:5, Insightful)
Are Germany and France conquering the rest of Europe, or is the rest of Europe conquering Germany and France? I ask because I read -- chiefly in The Economist and The New York Times, granted -- about the angst in both countries over the rising tide of English as a language and the difficulty both have had with economic growth over the last 20 years. The language aspect is particularly important: the best way to kill or submerge a culture is to destroy its language. Look at what the English did to the Welsh, Scottish, and Irish; to most of the world, people who are from all four geographic region would seem one and the same. Not many people know Welsh, and few writers work with it any longer. The same happened to American Indian cultures.
It seems like the rest of Europe is changing the cultures of those two countries moreso than the other way around.
Re:I'm not surprised... (Score:3, Insightful)
Nothing personal, but I'd rather ya'll sweat the petty stuff and let the US be the world's police. They don't do it all that well, but I'm pretty sure the alternatives would be worse.
Yeah, that whole US as global cop thing...the Euros bitch about the US doing everything unilaterally, but when you start doing stuff by committee nothing gets done (see current story). And it seems that for conflicts that the US doesn't get involved with for whatever reason, it seems that Europe doesn't really jump in with both feet.
Like now - for right or wrong, we have our hands full with Iraq and don't have the resources to solve Darfur. So where's Europe? Talking, telling the US to get involved. I'd say to Europe, with the US distracted, this is your chance to solve all those other problems your way, without the US stepping all over it. So let's see it.
As a US citizen, I'd rather my tax money weren't getting spent solving everyone else's problems, but it seems like the international will to do most of the dirty work just isn't there. Messy world problems can't be solved by parliamentary procedure at the UN.
Shock and Surprise (Score:3, Insightful)
*rolling of eyes*
GPS is a privilege, not a right. The US Government was kind enough to say, "okay, citizens, you can use it, too, but with a tad less accuracy." Well, a few years later, it seems some people get a stick up their butt and suddenly think that GPS is their God-given right. Well, like the internet, it isn't. And just like the internet, just because the rest of the world found a use for it and came to depend on it, doesn't justify complaints of US control.
Re:I'm not surprised... (Score:3, Insightful)
The EU has its roots in the Franco-German Steel and Coal agreements of the 50s, whose primary goal was peace in Europe. Everything else is just added bureaucracy. The rise of the US as a superpower had no impact on peace in Europe, unless you count conflict with Russia as part of a European conflict.
Re:I'm not surprised... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Piggyback US (Score:2, Insightful)
Galileo is supposed to be a public, non-minilary service. There will be legal guarantees that it can't be turned off just because some military commander thinks it'd be a great idea. Combined with GPS, it can even bring more accuracy (GNSS).
Another reason is of course that the project generates lots of jobs and revives research in Europe (trying to prevent at least some of the researches and engineers to emmigrate to the US
MOD parent up. An actual reference (Score:3, Insightful)
Long live the EU. I'm much happier with the current set up than how my grandfather or his father had to relate to folk from other European countries. Dying in a muddy trench shooting at somebody who's got no more grudge against me than I have against him because some rich bloke will make some money out of it or because some hereditary fool has some bizarre sense of honour to protect seems a bloody pointless exercise. I have no wish to do it.
Re:Piggyback US (Score:3, Insightful)
However, the rest of your post is pure and simple off-topic Bush bashing that really has no bearing on the discussion at hand, nor on any decision making made by current EU leadership. In fact, both the US and the EU came to an agreement in 2004 on GPS and Galileo frequencies helping to preserve a military advantage for both sides and also making both systems compatible with each other.
You may hate Bush, but while he certainly looks out for his own country's interests first and foremost (as he should), it can't be said that he and his administration have not been working with the EU on this one.
Re:I'm not surprised... (Score:1, Insightful)
"Shared culture": Isn't there usually the image that the US is a melting pot and Europe is homogeneous?
"Shared history": The countries of Europe share ten times more history than the US has.
"If an outside aggressive power started offering non-aggression pacts to individual EU members trying to divide the EU what would happen?"
Like the "coalition of the willing"? Why would we need nowadays non-aggression pacts? At the very least, this would send a warning to everyone. One would hope we'd have learned from the history. Also remember that France and Great Britain do have nukes.
"What would happen if an outside power waged economic warfare on individual member states and not on others?"
This is not possible: If the US would not sell to (or rather buy from), say, France, then they'd get some company in Germany for the imports: In the EU, you don't have much in the way of borders anymore.
I'd guess it would quite easy to get Texas and the rest of the bible belt and former slave states to secede from the US. They already tried once. On the other hand, you'll not see Poland leaving the EU, at least not in the next decades, because they just spent that much work to get into the EU, they would not understand if their government pulled out.
The UK, of course, is another matter, as its loyalties lie with the US while it tries to stay out of EU matters as much as possible (think Euro) unless it is profitable for them to leech of the EU (read Germany and France).
Re:I'm not surprised... (Score:5, Insightful)
Apart from the same money, Europeans also now share the same driving license.
Regarding commonality: There's more than the Euro, but not much: we now also have the same driving license. But I can't really think of much else at the moment...
The problem with democracy in Europe is that people use the EU elections to voice their frustrations and vote all the radical parties to show their dissatisfaction with the currently ruling administration in their own member state because the parliament doesn't have much power anyway.. So all kinds of really radical parties get voted in which people would never dream of voting into their own parliaments.
People actually say that the EU parliament has a much greater voice now than it did a decade ago - I also agree with other postings that the only way to make it more democratic is to give it enough powers so that people actually start caring. Right now, people use the EU elections for nothing but to voice their frustrations at their own goverment. This includes I believe even the referendums for the constitution: Their government is for it? People vote against - their government is against it? The people would have voted for it.
I believe that once the economic growth has gone on for a while and people are not fearing losing their jobs anymore as was the case in most countries that voted against the election, maybe we have a chance to get the constitution through. Without it, the EU will become a group of states that cannot do anything because all decisions have to be unanimous.
I still think of myself as a European though rather than a German - that being mainly because I grew up in the UK, lived in Germany for most of my life, spent quite some years in the USA where I really saw that there was a difference between European (not just English/German) mentality. In my work, half of the people I work with in the office are Dutch/other half is German.
People in Europe are brought up to be a lot more critical about their government, in the US for quite some time after 9/11 it was unheard of to criticize the president - US news just wasn't worth watching because it was all so one sided. Thankfully that has gotten a lot better again (I left the US two months ago). In the US, the goverment says something, the people believe it with almost no questions asked. Not so here.
What's not so good here is that people here rely too much on the government - in the US people rely more on themselves. If you're out of a job or are earning too little money, Americans get another job - here in Europe people ask for unemployment pay.
US and gun laws - after the shootings at that school people saying that if everybody had a gun, it would not have been as bad... No thanks... But I have to admit US gun laws are similar to having a law to impose a speed limit on the Autobahn in Germany- no government would ever be elected or reelected if they did that. It is just something cultural.
In the US it seems that the government wants to only have a few educated people and a lot of not so educated people - Universities there are just so prohibitively expensive. This is one of the main reasons I came back actually because my gf wants to study. 500 Euros a semester, that's a joke comparing it to US prices.
Then, we have more taxes here, but you get a lot for them - you get good roads (I am always amazed when I come from the US how good they are here), you get the university education.
Getting back to the Galileo program - there needs to be an EU government which have something to say. And they should press through the Galileo system. It is vital. Right now, I fear that it is not strong enough yet and it will stay at the one 1 satellite. I hope I am wrong.
Re:I'm not surprised... (Score:2, Insightful)
Rapes aren't significantly higher amongst the muslim demographic, unless you take into account any other factors (like socio-economic class, unemployement rate, previous criminal history... and yes, Muslims are over-represented there for the same reason that Eastern-Europe nationals are: they constitute one of the main groups of immigrants in Europe).
I will attribute your misjudgement of muslim culture and religion to ignorance rather than malice. But know that accusing them of justifying rape is wrong in so many ways that I won't waste my time detailing them to you
Re:Piggyback US (Score:3, Insightful)
Do you think this would be America's biggest concern in times of war?
Do you think Europeans are happy about that either?
Would you personally be happy to be relying on another country's goodwill for daily needs? Well, Europeans are no different and they don't like it either.
Re:I'm not surprised... (Score:3, Insightful)
http://www.time.com/time/europe/magazine/2002/120
Obviously, rapes ARE significantly higher among the Muslim demographic; unemployment, previous criminal history, etc. are not excuses, and don't make them non-Muslim.
Read the article to see how they justify their rapes.
Re:I'm not surprised... (Score:3, Insightful)
Here's another one, about the rape epidemic in Sweden by Muslims. Apparently some teenage girls there even designed an "anti-rape belt" because the problem is so bad.
And this isn't just some hoodlums committing crimes which authorities would disapprove of. What do top Muslim clerics think of it? "An Islamic Mufti in Copenhagen sparked a political outcry after publicly declaring that women who refuse to wear headscarves are 'asking for rape.'" It's actually the view of Islamic authorities that it's ok to rape women.
If these aren't clear-cut signs that Muslims (especially men) have no place in western society, I don't know what is. There is no "misjudgement" of muslim culture and religion on my part, only on yours as you have turned a blind eye towards the atrocities condoned by top Muslim religious authorities.
Re:I'm not surprised... (Score:4, Insightful)
In addition, you may not remember it, but it was less than 20 years ago that the Soviet Union included parts of Western Europe--there wasn't even a unified Germany. This is hard to fathom now, but not 20 years ago a large portion of the EU was much less accessible than it is now. Certainly during the last 50 years there were times when western Europe's relations with the Soviets was
I know anti-Americanism is the fashionable thing now, but come on, I just can't imagine why you would try to minimize hundreds of thousands of dead.. I just don't know what the motivation for that is.
(incidentally, I'm not disputing the fact that the precursor France, Germany, Benelux, Italy union was intended to peace, though I would dispute that it was the biggest factor, or even a big one. Something about millions and millions of people dying tends to kinda suck the desire to fight from people.. it helps when there are soldiers around keeping the peace too !!)