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Europe's Galileo Program In Serious Trouble 403

Posted by kdawson
from the tell-me-again-why-we-are-building-this dept.
elrous0 writes "Various news outlets are reporting that Europe's Galileo program is facing a serious financial and technical crisis and may be permanently stalled. The European program, designed to be a superior answer to the US's GPS — and, more critically, not controlled by the US — has faced numerous hurdles since its inception. To date the Galileo program has succeeded in launching only one of its 30 planned satellites and has been beset by delays and cost overruns. Apparently, squabbling between the eight companies in the consortium behind the project is responsible for many of the problems. The project is now threatened with an EU takeover. But some doubt that even an infusion of EU capital can save the flagging program."
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Europe's Galileo Program In Serious Trouble

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  • by jawtheshark (198669) * <slashdot@nospam.jawtheshark.com> on Tuesday May 08, 2007 @01:40PM (#19040379) Homepage Journal

    I'm a EU citizen, and I applauded the Galileo program. Especially, because at least we would gain a bit independence to the US. (I was for a European Army too, provided that all national armied be disbanded... That idea was highly critisized by the US too). Anyway, this is typical EU technology stuff. Good idea in the beginning, bureaucracy kicks in, budgets get busted, scientists get frustrated and leave for the greener pastures in the US (or elsewhere), etc... etc... etc...

    Eurofighter... same kind of mess. The only thing the EU is good at is creating papers and using my tax money. Okay, that and technically they are responsible for keeping peace (within EU members states) for over 50 years. A fucking long time in Europes history.... Well, it's a high price for peace, but it's the only reason I'm not against the EU.

  • Re:Sounds Familiar (Score:5, Insightful)

    by rlp (11898) on Tuesday May 08, 2007 @01:48PM (#19040527)
    For those not old enough to remember, it still sounds very familiar [wikipedia.org].
  • by Chas (5144) on Tuesday May 08, 2007 @01:50PM (#19040559) Homepage Journal
    This is what happens when you dive into a program like this motivated by little more than spite.

    Emotions wax and wane. If you project is based off little more than the sentiment of "Fscking Americans...", so too will the ability of the project to function.

    Is a re-implementation of a GPS-like system a laudable goal? SURE!

    Is the "Fscking Americans..." sentiment a good basis for such a goal? NO EFFING WAY!

    And, if the simple goal of having a product like this outside of American control remains the primary goal, it's just doomed to fail. All you'll do is spur the people working on the GPS system to out-innovate you and out-compete you.

    "Gailileo offers X resolution"

    "GPS offers variable resolutions up to 3X+1, is time-tested and stable, has thousands of apps in-place already, yadda yadda, oh and did we mention yadda? Oh, and our licensing terms will cost you less than half what any competitors can offer you. Do the math..."
  • Obvious (Score:2, Insightful)

    by blhack (921171) on Tuesday May 08, 2007 @01:53PM (#19040625)
    The original GPS program was built by the DOD, meaning nearly unlimited funds. Since GPS doesn't require subscription, i can't really imagine much of a business model for something like this. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for new tech, but really why is this needed? Does anybody really need anything better than CM accuracy (which is possible with today's tech). I suppose that i can see maybe construction crews and such benefiting from a system with extreme accuracy, but a site-based positioning system seems to be a better approach for something like that.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 08, 2007 @01:54PM (#19040657)
    Yes, had NOTHING to do with numerous US bases stationed everywhere in europe to dissuade the USSR from invading. /sarcasm

    I'm all for you guys being independant from us. Maybe we can stop spending money on bases over there.

    Just remember who was nice to you many times in the past.
  • Re:Piggyback US (Score:3, Insightful)

    by falcon5768 (629591) <Falcon5768.comcast@net> on Tuesday May 08, 2007 @01:55PM (#19040667) Journal
    It's US. They dont like the idea that we can turn out the lights or degrade service if say they get it in their mind to come over and invade us. Or us them.

    Its a very silly argument though not without merit since I would be a fool to looking back 60 years now. But still I think there are much more pressing matters at hand than to worry about the US taking care of your navigational needs.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 08, 2007 @02:00PM (#19040753)
    This coming from someone in the US, a country known for a huge civil war in it's extremely short history, as well as a well established history of invading other countries purely for their own benefit, without any merit. Hilarious.
  • by R2.0 (532027) on Tuesday May 08, 2007 @02:02PM (#19040803)
    "they are responsible for keeping peace (within EU members states) for over 50 years"

    Huh? The EU started out as, and effectively remains, an economic organization. How did they "keep the peace".

    If anything, I would credit the relative peacefulness of Europe in the last 50 years to cohesiveness against the external soviet threat, combined with the massive US subsidy of European defense budgets. With the mainly US funded NATO as their defense umbrella, Europe could divert funds that would otherwise have been spent on weapons to social programs. This has kept the level of internal and external strife to a minimum - why fight when everyone is fat and happy.

    Don't worry - it won't last. Sooner or later, European countries will have to start footing their defense bill. This will start to impact their social services, already strained by demographics (aging population + low birthrate). This, combined with the civil unrest already brewing, and I predict we'll see open warfare between (soon-to-be) former EU nations within 20 years.

    Like you said - Europe's been at peace for "a fucking long time", but 50 years isn't enouigh to change huma nature, and the nature of humans is to make war.
  • Re:Piggyback US (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Dogtanian (588974) on Tuesday May 08, 2007 @02:02PM (#19040807) Homepage

    The US GPS system is available worldwide, and with the increased amount of definition now I wonder why they want to invest so much money creating their own. Perhaps a joint US / Europe project to utilize one system, would be cost efficient.
    Because the US system is under the control of the US. In reality, "friendship" between countries does not exist; countries have allies, not friends.

    Beneath the PR gloss the US government has always acted in its own interest to a large extent (don't take that as a criticism, any government in its position would the same). However, in recent years this has become significantly more pronounced with the hawkish arrogance of Bush and co. In particular, Tony Blair's conceit that he has any real influence over the Bush administration is laughable, and has been for some time now. Bush will only do what Blair wants if he was going to do it anyway; out of the PR highlight, U.S. government staff have admitted as much.

    I'm sure you'll excuse me if I say that I don't trust the Bush-led government one fucking bit. When push came to shove, if they were forced to choose, they'd act in their own self-interest. Even if the US Democrats won the next election, there's no guarantee that they'd be significantly better, or how long it would be before the Bush-types regain power.

    As I said, I personally think it's undesirable to rely on the US-controlled system. You can take this as an anti-U.S. rant or not; what it comes down to IMHO is that we need a system under our own control, not something that can be yanked from under our feet if it proves inconvenient to our allies.
  • by DJCacophony (832334) <v0dkaNO@SPAMmyg0t.com> on Tuesday May 08, 2007 @02:04PM (#19040831) Homepage
    Yeah, because we all know that no European nations have ever had any civil wars, or invaded other countries for their benefit. Ever.
  • Well, actually, I think the EU is really just the Germans and the French finally figuring out how to do jointly what they've been trying unsuccessfully to do independently for the last 300-odd years -- conquer the rest of Europe.

    Seriously: they have a waiting list to get in. How slick is that? You've got countries falling over themselves, remaking themselves in your image, in order to be part of your empire. Not too shabby.

  • by dedazo (737510) on Tuesday May 08, 2007 @02:20PM (#19041107) Journal

    Okay, that and technically they are responsible for keeping peace

    You've been at peace for the first time in 60 years (I think that's the longest stretch so far?) thanks to the United States of America. Without the US, you'd be posting in Russian (or German. Or not at all). Wait a minute, that's not true if you consider the Yugoslavia debacle, which you had surprisingly little will to solve until the United States practically forced you to. And then essentially solved for you anyway.

    You've been perfecting the art of killing each other (and everyone else) for the past thousand years or so. You've started, fought and alternatively won or lost by far the most violent, protracted and destructive conflicts in the history of humanity. And you wonder why the US complained about your idea of having a unified Army?

    Nothing personal, but I'd rather ya'll sweat the petty stuff and let the US be the world's police. They don't do it all that well, but I'm pretty sure the alternatives would be worse.

  • by AlXtreme (223728) on Tuesday May 08, 2007 @02:28PM (#19041303) Homepage Journal
    The EU is surprisingly un-democratic, actually. There is an elected EU-parliament, but they have no divisive say on anything. The EU-officials making the calls are pushed forward by the member-nations.

    The main problem (if you can call it one) is that the EU isn't a country. You may take your share of blame for your NiC because your countrymen put him in power. Who should we blame for a failing EU? People from Poland, Romania or Malta? They don't speak my language, don't read or watch the same media, can't vote on the same parties. There is no such thing as a 'European'.

    The only similarity is that we use the same currency, it ends at that. The EU was founded as an economic union, and became a very successful one. The problem is that it went on to other facets of life, and became a bludgeoning bureaucratic monstrosity with failures like the new Airbus and Galileo.

    This is the main reason why we Dutchies, together with the French, voted against the EU 'constitution'. We're perfectly happy without the EU wanting to assimilate us into a 'federation'.
  • by Colin Smith (2679) on Tuesday May 08, 2007 @02:30PM (#19041331)

    Huh? The EU started out as, and effectively remains, an economic organization. How did they "keep the peace".
    What on earth do you think wars are about? They're about getting hold of resources that other countries hold. The EEC created a large free trade area which allows the money and resources to flow freely. There has been no need for war.

    Sooner or later, European countries will have to start footing their defense bill.
    Actually no, they won't.

    They'll be able to do what the US is doing right now, as the Euro replaces the US Dollar as the world reserve currency they'll be able to print Euros without producing inflation within the EU. The inflation will be externalised. Essentially, the rest of the world will finance the EU defence budget.

    Europe's been at peace for "a fucking long time", but 50 years isn't enouigh to change huma nature, and the nature of humans is to make war.
    But of course, the war will be against whoever holds the resources which are needed within the EU. Like the massive oil fields in Saudi and Iraq...

     
  • by JordanL (886154) <jordan...ledoux@@@gmail...com> on Tuesday May 08, 2007 @02:38PM (#19041507) Homepage
    Why does everyone have to make any statement on economics a pissing match? I never said anything about the dollar. The Euro has performed weakly compared to its goals and backing, and it is primarily due to the deficits which France and Germany have been racking up, which rival those of the US for the only types of values that matter to economists: % GDP.

    A weak dollar is actually a good way to fix outsourcing, as US goods become cheaper... in fact its the only way that the market by itself really has to fix outsourcing and trade deficits.

    As for the Yuan... it has performed where it has because the Chinese government has been more or less subsidizing its own currency, which I suppose a more communist government is capable of. No matter how good the opportunity, China can't sustain a 9% growth rate forever, and when they slow down, their currency will have to come crashing to the floor, or we'll be mopping up Chinese bonds to fund their debt.

    The global economy is a revolving door, and no one is spared, no matter how high and mighty they think they are. The state of the US dollar testifies to that.
  • by kbob88 (951258) on Tuesday May 08, 2007 @02:40PM (#19041533)
    Concorde, Airbus, Galileo - great job, guys.

    Can't wait until you all get fed up with US control of the Internet, and decide to make your own internet. Good luck with that one too.
  • by McDutchie (151611) on Tuesday May 08, 2007 @02:40PM (#19041537) Homepage

    Huh? The EU started out as, and effectively remains, an economic organization. How did they "keep the peace".

    By being an economic organization. It's not in any country's interest to wage war with its closest trade partners.

  • Re:Piggyback US (Score:2, Insightful)

    by falcon5768 (629591) <Falcon5768.comcast@net> on Tuesday May 08, 2007 @02:47PM (#19041661) Journal
    I never said it wasnt a little worrying. But much like the argument that the EU has about internet control... you guys much like the US it's self have MUCH BIGGER PROBLEMS than to be pissing in each others pool over something less than 10 years ago we used to use a compass and other tools.
  • by jo7hs2 (884069) on Tuesday May 08, 2007 @03:01PM (#19041897) Homepage
    Oh please. China, India, and Russia will be the immediate geopolitical threats to both the US and the EU. I find it unlikely that the US and the EU (should it exist in some form in 25-50 years) will come to blows with those other threats to fend off. The simple truth is, both sides of the Atlantic have too much in common, culturally, intellectually, and even in political systemic functions, to find themselves enemies. Both Europe and North America have significant water resources, so I doubt that will be the issue that divides us. Hopefully, 50 years from now, we will have weaned ourselves off of oil enough that it too will not be an major problem. That's assuming the EU doesn't simply collapse, which is what my money is on.
  • by falcon5768 (629591) <Falcon5768.comcast@net> on Tuesday May 08, 2007 @03:13PM (#19042117) Journal
    You dont know much about American politics beyond what your news stations tell you do you? Thats the only way you could ever make a statement like that and think it was in any way true with our political situation.

    We agreed to go to war in Afghanistan for legitimate reasons that where much graver than anything your own countries did to start WWI. Iraq is a sore subject and was only agreed to because people lied about intel. We are now coming to the agreement on how to best pull our troops out of the war, we are fighting, but I strongly expect a agreement to be hammered out before July. On top of this more bills pass through our government in a month, than the EU has passed in their existence, many with some manner of debate and disagreement over them. The difference is majority wins in the US. If 55% of our elected officials voted yes, and our president doesnt veto, then its yes even if you dont like it. Only when it comes to being a Veto (which would be the case of the recent war spending bill which was passed pretty much as a FU to the presedent to make him veto a bill giving money to our troops than it was a expectation the moron would actually suck it up and admit he fucked up royally) does it come down to a large majority vote to bypass the president and make it law. While the recent bill didnt, bills in the past have.

  • by ThousandStars (556222) on Tuesday May 08, 2007 @03:19PM (#19042215) Homepage
    Well, actually, I think the EU is really just the Germans and the French finally figuring out how to do jointly what they've been trying unsuccessfully to do independently for the last 300-odd years -- conquer the rest of Europe.

    Are Germany and France conquering the rest of Europe, or is the rest of Europe conquering Germany and France? I ask because I read -- chiefly in The Economist and The New York Times, granted -- about the angst in both countries over the rising tide of English as a language and the difficulty both have had with economic growth over the last 20 years. The language aspect is particularly important: the best way to kill or submerge a culture is to destroy its language. Look at what the English did to the Welsh, Scottish, and Irish; to most of the world, people who are from all four geographic region would seem one and the same. Not many people know Welsh, and few writers work with it any longer. The same happened to American Indian cultures.

    It seems like the rest of Europe is changing the cultures of those two countries moreso than the other way around.

  • by Mr. Underbridge (666784) on Tuesday May 08, 2007 @03:31PM (#19042399)

    Nothing personal, but I'd rather ya'll sweat the petty stuff and let the US be the world's police. They don't do it all that well, but I'm pretty sure the alternatives would be worse.

    Yeah, that whole US as global cop thing...the Euros bitch about the US doing everything unilaterally, but when you start doing stuff by committee nothing gets done (see current story). And it seems that for conflicts that the US doesn't get involved with for whatever reason, it seems that Europe doesn't really jump in with both feet.

    Like now - for right or wrong, we have our hands full with Iraq and don't have the resources to solve Darfur. So where's Europe? Talking, telling the US to get involved. I'd say to Europe, with the US distracted, this is your chance to solve all those other problems your way, without the US stepping all over it. So let's see it.

    As a US citizen, I'd rather my tax money weren't getting spent solving everyone else's problems, but it seems like the international will to do most of the dirty work just isn't there. Messy world problems can't be solved by parliamentary procedure at the UN.

  • Shock and Surprise (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Ngarrang (1023425) on Tuesday May 08, 2007 @03:48PM (#19042775) Journal
    So, a project designed by a committee with no real purpose other than to say "this is my toy" failed. I am completely shocked and surprised.

    *rolling of eyes*

    GPS is a privilege, not a right. The US Government was kind enough to say, "okay, citizens, you can use it, too, but with a tad less accuracy." Well, a few years later, it seems some people get a stick up their butt and suddenly think that GPS is their God-given right. Well, like the internet, it isn't. And just like the internet, just because the rest of the world found a use for it and came to depend on it, doesn't justify complaints of US control.
  • by NeutronCowboy (896098) on Tuesday May 08, 2007 @03:51PM (#19042827)
    Wow... what's with the moderation today? Maybe the American moderators should stick to moderating topics they have a clue about?

    The EU has its roots in the Franco-German Steel and Coal agreements of the 50s, whose primary goal was peace in Europe. Everything else is just added bureaucracy. The rise of the US as a superpower had no impact on peace in Europe, unless you count conflict with Russia as part of a European conflict.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 08, 2007 @04:02PM (#19043035)

    Yeah, because we all know that no European nations have ever had any civil wars, or invaded other countries for their benefit. Ever.
    Most of them don't pretend to be innocent of any of these charges nowadays. European history is full of civil wars, predatory wars of conquest, ethnic cleansing and the associated atrocities and denying that history would be pretty pointless. It usually takes a large group of especially clueless morons such as the Nazis, Fascists or Balkan ultra nationalists to achieve a critical mass of stupidity that is great enough to generate a wave of such denial. The USA just as prone to deluding it self that every war it starts for it's own selfish ends is really a humanitarian police actions aimed at spreading democracy and preventing the proliferation of (imaginary) weapons of mass destruction.
  • Re:Piggyback US (Score:2, Insightful)

    by weg (196564) on Tuesday May 08, 2007 @04:05PM (#19043121)
    The US GPS system is mainly intended for military application. It might be shutdown or degraded whenever the US deem such an action appropriate. Just consider that something like the recent terrorist attacks happens again - do you think that US military would make a call to Europe before they encrypt GPS (temporarily)?

    Galileo is supposed to be a public, non-minilary service. There will be legal guarantees that it can't be turned off just because some military commander thinks it'd be a great idea. Combined with GPS, it can even bring more accuracy (GNSS).

    Another reason is of course that the project generates lots of jobs and revives research in Europe (trying to prevent at least some of the researches and engineers to emmigrate to the US ;-)).
  • by fantomas (94850) on Tuesday May 08, 2007 @04:10PM (#19043181)
    Well referenced sir. An actual reference rather than a vaguely remembered comic strip version of history.

    Long live the EU. I'm much happier with the current set up than how my grandfather or his father had to relate to folk from other European countries. Dying in a muddy trench shooting at somebody who's got no more grudge against me than I have against him because some rich bloke will make some money out of it or because some hereditary fool has some bizarre sense of honour to protect seems a bloody pointless exercise. I have no wish to do it.
  • Re:Piggyback US (Score:3, Insightful)

    by rayvd (155635) on Tuesday May 08, 2007 @04:32PM (#19043559) Homepage Journal
    The reasons you list initially are sound ones. Alternatives are always better, and certainly should help spur some healthy competition. Rarely is monopoly beneficial for everyone.

    However, the rest of your post is pure and simple off-topic Bush bashing that really has no bearing on the discussion at hand, nor on any decision making made by current EU leadership. In fact, both the US and the EU came to an agreement in 2004 on GPS and Galileo frequencies helping to preserve a military advantage for both sides and also making both systems compatible with each other.

    You may hate Bush, but while he certainly looks out for his own country's interests first and foremost (as he should), it can't be said that he and his administration have not been working with the EU on this one.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 08, 2007 @04:38PM (#19043699)
    The question is whether Europe will ever need to do so. One doesn't do war only to do war. Even the US invaded Iraq for the oil. One should think that over 2.000 years of history would provide us with quite some insight into the futility of war.

    "Shared culture": Isn't there usually the image that the US is a melting pot and Europe is homogeneous?
    "Shared history": The countries of Europe share ten times more history than the US has.

    "If an outside aggressive power started offering non-aggression pacts to individual EU members trying to divide the EU what would happen?"
    Like the "coalition of the willing"? Why would we need nowadays non-aggression pacts? At the very least, this would send a warning to everyone. One would hope we'd have learned from the history. Also remember that France and Great Britain do have nukes.

    "What would happen if an outside power waged economic warfare on individual member states and not on others?"
    This is not possible: If the US would not sell to (or rather buy from), say, France, then they'd get some company in Germany for the imports: In the EU, you don't have much in the way of borders anymore.

    I'd guess it would quite easy to get Texas and the rest of the bible belt and former slave states to secede from the US. They already tried once. On the other hand, you'll not see Poland leaving the EU, at least not in the next decades, because they just spent that much work to get into the EU, they would not understand if their government pulled out.

    The UK, of course, is another matter, as its loyalties lie with the US while it tries to stay out of EU matters as much as possible (think Euro) unless it is profitable for them to leech of the EU (read Germany and France).
  • by germanbirdman (159018) on Tuesday May 08, 2007 @05:59PM (#19045103)
    I also like the fact that I can work in every other European country. In fact if you have lived in another European country for more than a certain amount of time (2 years?) You can also vote in that country in many places now - not all elections yet, but we're moving in that direction.

    Apart from the same money, Europeans also now share the same driving license.

    Regarding commonality: There's more than the Euro, but not much: we now also have the same driving license. But I can't really think of much else at the moment...

    The problem with democracy in Europe is that people use the EU elections to voice their frustrations and vote all the radical parties to show their dissatisfaction with the currently ruling administration in their own member state because the parliament doesn't have much power anyway.. So all kinds of really radical parties get voted in which people would never dream of voting into their own parliaments.

    People actually say that the EU parliament has a much greater voice now than it did a decade ago - I also agree with other postings that the only way to make it more democratic is to give it enough powers so that people actually start caring. Right now, people use the EU elections for nothing but to voice their frustrations at their own goverment. This includes I believe even the referendums for the constitution: Their government is for it? People vote against - their government is against it? The people would have voted for it.

    I believe that once the economic growth has gone on for a while and people are not fearing losing their jobs anymore as was the case in most countries that voted against the election, maybe we have a chance to get the constitution through. Without it, the EU will become a group of states that cannot do anything because all decisions have to be unanimous.

    I still think of myself as a European though rather than a German - that being mainly because I grew up in the UK, lived in Germany for most of my life, spent quite some years in the USA where I really saw that there was a difference between European (not just English/German) mentality. In my work, half of the people I work with in the office are Dutch/other half is German.

    People in Europe are brought up to be a lot more critical about their government, in the US for quite some time after 9/11 it was unheard of to criticize the president - US news just wasn't worth watching because it was all so one sided. Thankfully that has gotten a lot better again (I left the US two months ago). In the US, the goverment says something, the people believe it with almost no questions asked. Not so here.
    What's not so good here is that people here rely too much on the government - in the US people rely more on themselves. If you're out of a job or are earning too little money, Americans get another job - here in Europe people ask for unemployment pay.
    US and gun laws - after the shootings at that school people saying that if everybody had a gun, it would not have been as bad... No thanks... But I have to admit US gun laws are similar to having a law to impose a speed limit on the Autobahn in Germany- no government would ever be elected or reelected if they did that. It is just something cultural.
    In the US it seems that the government wants to only have a few educated people and a lot of not so educated people - Universities there are just so prohibitively expensive. This is one of the main reasons I came back actually because my gf wants to study. 500 Euros a semester, that's a joke comparing it to US prices.
    Then, we have more taxes here, but you get a lot for them - you get good roads (I am always amazed when I come from the US how good they are here), you get the university education.

    Getting back to the Galileo program - there needs to be an EU government which have something to say. And they should press through the Galileo system. It is vital. Right now, I fear that it is not strong enough yet and it will stay at the one 1 satellite. I hope I am wrong.

  • by miguelX (947939) on Tuesday May 08, 2007 @06:07PM (#19045227)
    How you've hold out so long without getting a nice '-1, troll' modding escapes my understanding:

    Rapes aren't significantly higher amongst the muslim demographic, unless you take into account any other factors (like socio-economic class, unemployement rate, previous criminal history... and yes, Muslims are over-represented there for the same reason that Eastern-Europe nationals are: they constitute one of the main groups of immigrants in Europe).

    I will attribute your misjudgement of muslim culture and religion to ignorance rather than malice. But know that accusing them of justifying rape is wrong in so many ways that I won't waste my time detailing them to you
  • Re:Piggyback US (Score:3, Insightful)

    by elgatozorbas (783538) on Tuesday May 08, 2007 @06:14PM (#19045323)

    ...If GPS couldn't be relied upon then the sale of GPS equipment would surely be aversely affected.

    Do you think this would be America's biggest concern in times of war?

    ...Rerouting the internet backbone. A significant amount of traffic still goes through US-controlled nodes in US territory.

    Do you think Europeans are happy about that either?

    Would you personally be happy to be relying on another country's goodwill for daily needs? Well, Europeans are no different and they don't like it either.

  • by Grishnakh (216268) on Tuesday May 08, 2007 @07:31PM (#19046173)
    Here's an article about the epidemic of rape by Muslim men in France:
    http://www.time.com/time/europe/magazine/2002/1202 /crime/bellil.htm [time.com]

    Obviously, rapes ARE significantly higher among the Muslim demographic; unemployment, previous criminal history, etc. are not excuses, and don't make them non-Muslim.

    Read the article to see how they justify their rapes.
  • by Grishnakh (216268) on Tuesday May 08, 2007 @07:37PM (#19046219)
    http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.a sp?ID=20552 [frontpagemag.com]

    Here's another one, about the rape epidemic in Sweden by Muslims. Apparently some teenage girls there even designed an "anti-rape belt" because the problem is so bad.

    And this isn't just some hoodlums committing crimes which authorities would disapprove of. What do top Muslim clerics think of it? "An Islamic Mufti in Copenhagen sparked a political outcry after publicly declaring that women who refuse to wear headscarves are 'asking for rape.'" It's actually the view of Islamic authorities that it's ok to rape women.

    If these aren't clear-cut signs that Muslims (especially men) have no place in western society, I don't know what is. There is no "misjudgement" of muslim culture and religion on my part, only on yours as you have turned a blind eye towards the atrocities condoned by top Muslim religious authorities.

  • by Moridineas (213502) on Tuesday May 08, 2007 @08:47PM (#19046797) Journal

    I didn't talk about the US contributions during WW2 (which are also far smaller than Americans like to think).
    Your revisionism is peeping through again. Conservatively speaking, the US lost 200,000 people in Europe. My grandfather fought in Europe. I think it's entirely fair to say that WW2 would not have ended as it did had the US not entered the European front. But I guess that doesn't really matter anymore.. The Hitler/Stalin reference was referring to who would most likely had controlled most of Europe had things turned out differently..

    The rise of the US as a superpower had no impact on peace in Europe, unless you count conflict with Russia as part of a European conflict.
    That sounds to me like you're saying the economic power of the US had no impact on WW2. Had no impact on rebuilding post-war Europe. Had no impact on the formation of NATO. Had no impact on stopping the spread of Russia (which you say doesn't count for some reason--I think the former East Germans might disagree with you..). Had no part on supporting Europe militarily when the European militaries were depleted and worn out. Had no part in the keeping of the peace..

    In addition, you may not remember it, but it was less than 20 years ago that the Soviet Union included parts of Western Europe--there wasn't even a unified Germany. This is hard to fathom now, but not 20 years ago a large portion of the EU was much less accessible than it is now. Certainly during the last 50 years there were times when western Europe's relations with the Soviets was .. less than good. Berlin WAS a split city until 17 years ago! I don't know about you, but that's an amazingly hard image to reconcile with the images of Europe today. Anyway, my point is merely that the US played a large role in Europe from WW2 for many years. The price tag was in the hundreds of thousands of lives, and billions of dollars. Hell, US superpower had nothing to do with European peace? Heard anything about the Balkans? The US had to send troops there recently (nato)... so I guess, we're STILL helping out. Actually that's an interesting point--I have a number of Bosnian friends--I lived in an area where a very large number of Bosnian refugees were settled--and I've RARELY met anyone as pro-American and pro-American military. Especially for Europeans (those from the Balkans DO count as Europeans, right?). One of my friends lived in Sarajevo through most of the war..has some amazing stories and pictures.. pretty horrifying.

    I know anti-Americanism is the fashionable thing now, but come on, I just can't imagine why you would try to minimize hundreds of thousands of dead.. I just don't know what the motivation for that is.

    (incidentally, I'm not disputing the fact that the precursor France, Germany, Benelux, Italy union was intended to peace, though I would dispute that it was the biggest factor, or even a big one. Something about millions and millions of people dying tends to kinda suck the desire to fight from people.. it helps when there are soldiers around keeping the peace too !!)

To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing. -- Elbert Hubbard

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