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Censorship Science

Science Journal Publishers Wary of Free Information 293

Billosaur writes "Nature.com is reporting that the Association of American Publishers (AAP), which includes the companies that publish scientific journals, is becoming concerned with the free-information movement. A meeting was arranged with PR professional Eric Dezenhall to discuss the problem. Dezenhall's firm has worked with the likes of ExxonMobil 'to criticize the environmental group Greenpeace', among other campaigns. The publishers are worried that the free exchange of scientific information may be bad for the bottom line, as it might cause the money from subscriptions to their journals to dry up. Among the recommendations: 'The consultant advised them to focus on simple messages, such as "Public access equals government censorship". He hinted that the publishers should attempt to equate traditional publishing models with peer review, and "paint a picture of what the world would look like without peer-reviewed articles.' The AAP is trying to counter messages from groups such as the Public Library of Science (PLoS), an open-access publisher and prominent advocate of free access to information, or the National Institutes of Health's (NIH's) PubMed Central."
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Science Journal Publishers Wary of Free Information

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  • Oh yes, (Score:2, Interesting)

    by hjf ( 703092 )
    Oh yes, the American way. Information that's vital for you: either pay for it, or die.

    Now seriously, come on! those "scientific" papers, I didn't know they made MILLIONS a year out of subscriptions (that's what research costs, millions if not billions). Maybe I'm in the wrong business?
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by mc6809e ( 214243 )
      Oh yes, the American way. Information that's vital for you: either pay for it, or die.

      Money is a promise from society to do something for the person that holds it.

      If someone learns or discovers something that saves lives, I say they deserve more than just "hey, thanks" back from society.

      • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

        by anagama ( 611277 )
        I don't know the answer so someone enlightment me. To people who submit and have accepted, papers for publication in scientific journals get paid? If so, how is that divided between all the contributors to the paper? Is there a royalty paid for each time the article is sold? Is it a lump sum payment to the author/authors?
        • Re:Oh yes, (Score:5, Informative)

          by AoT ( 107216 ) on Thursday January 25, 2007 @07:16PM (#17760090) Homepage Journal
          Authors?

          In scientific journals?

          Paid?

          Man, I wish I lived in that magical world.
        • Re:Oh yes, (Score:5, Informative)

          by posterlogo ( 943853 ) on Thursday January 25, 2007 @07:24PM (#17760198)
          Absolutely not.


          There is no monetary payment whatsover. The costs associated with publishing are typically paid for by advertising, and some journals with lower circulations may charge page costs as well. The authors never get payed royalties or anything for journal articles. It's an amazing thing really -- putting all your work out there for review (essentially before AND after publication), for the simple satisfaction that you have made a contribution to the knowledgebase. If your conclusions are erroneous, the community will figure it out eventually, and if your contributions are right on, you will be remembered as someone who had a positive impact on the field (you may even get rewarded). Scientists in academia are generally not the richest people in the world.

          • Paying your dues (Score:5, Insightful)

            by benhocking ( 724439 ) <benjaminhocking@[ ]oo.com ['yah' in gap]> on Thursday January 25, 2007 @08:04PM (#17760796) Homepage Journal
            It's an amazing thing really -- putting all your work out there for review (essentially before AND after publication), for the simple satisfaction that you have made a contribution to the knowledgebase.

            OK, let's be honest here. The reason we do it is not merely for that "simple satisfaction" (although there is some of that). If you're possibly going to be looking for a job in the near future, you need to be published - often and recently. If you're trying to get tenure, you need to be published. If you've got tenure, then, well, you don't need to be published, but it certainly helps your bargaining position if you're looking for pay increases, etc.

            Still, it's a racket.
        • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

          As a graduate student who's been published, I can say this:

          We don't get paid jack when we get published.

          In fact, for many journals, we have to pay them a substantial per-page fee if we include graphics beyond a fixed (low) limit, or exceed the page count. Even for peer-reviewed books, we don't receive payment for the chapters we contribute. Also, we have to pay for reprints of the article. Oh, and we also have to sign copyright assignment forms that transfer the copyright on our work to the publisher.

          Becaus
      • by AoT ( 107216 )
        Go look at the list of the ten richest people in the U.S.

        Now tell me which one of them saved peoples lives with whatever they made their money on.
        • Everytime someone make A LOT of money they do it by providing to the society something that solves some of societies problems. Unless we are talking about companies that are in the business of dealing drugs (tobaco companies, possibly fast food, etc), whoever created these companies freed up a lot of hastles from a lot of peoples lives so that those people can use that freed up time to take care of their lives. How many lives were saved by car manufacturers? Think about that the next time you drive your
  • I'm lost. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by grub ( 11606 ) <slashdot@grub.net> on Thursday January 25, 2007 @05:59PM (#17759032) Homepage Journal

    "Public access equals government censorship"

    I've been parsing that for a few minutes and it doesn't make sense. How would open access equate to some sort of closed access?
    • by Shabazz Rabbinowitz ( 103670 ) on Thursday January 25, 2007 @06:04PM (#17759118)
      I don't know anything about that, but I do understand that we've always been at war with Eurasia.
    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by UbuntuDupe ( 970646 ) *
      Probably by the same reasoning that "opposition to government funding of science" equals "opposition to science".
      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by spun ( 1352 )
        What a silly comparison. In the original, one thing (open access) is compared to its opposite (government censorship), while in your phrasing two similar things ("opposition to government funding of science" and "opposition to science") are compared.

        As the only context in which this minor distinction makes sense is that of stem-cell reseaerch, I'd say it is obvious you are trying to troll people who support stem cell research. There's nothing wrong with a good troll, but your post isn't that good.
        • What a silly comparison. In the original, one thing (open access) is compared to its opposite (government censorship), while in your phrasing two similar things ("opposition to government funding of science" and "opposition to science") are compared.

          True, but still:

          1) Neither makes sense.
          2) My comparison involves things which are *more* similar.

          As the only context in which this minor distinction makes sense is that of stem-cell reseaerch, I'd say it is obvious you are trying to troll people who support stem
          • Most major advances in science have come from government funding, either basic research which private companies never do because no one can say whether basic research will ever turn a profit, let alone when it might or how much; or through military research. But you are free to have your opinion, attempt to convince others, and even attempt to get the laws changed.

            Until that point, thankfully, freeloaders are forced to help pay for all the benefits they accrue (Such as the use of the Internet) through gover
            • That's interesting, but please remind me what any of that has to do with your earlier claim that my complaint about "equating government funding of science with science" was a troll against stem cell research funding proponents.

              Would you like to admit your error, or simply pontificate on the separate matter you just brought up?
              • by spun ( 1352 )
                Um, can't I do both? *Sigh* Oh, all right. You have validated your position, and I apologize for calling you a troll.
        • by Otter ( 3800 )
          I think the point (to the degree that it even makes sense to demand justification of a phrase given completely out of context) is that if government-funded research is required to be published in open access journals, that effectively destroys any other publishers. So the analogy to stem cell research isn't that bad.
        • by AJWM ( 19027 )
          two similar things ("opposition to government funding of science" and "opposition to science") are compared.

          You seem confused. How are they similar?

          Many people are opposed to government spending any money, since they take that money (by threat of force -- consider what happens if you don't pay taxes) from the citizenry. Most of those people have no problem with science per se, especially if private individuals (or corporations) are spending their own money (or money freely given to them) to do it. Science
    • Re:I'm lost. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by zCyl ( 14362 ) on Thursday January 25, 2007 @06:09PM (#17759202)
      "Public access equals government censorship"

      I've been parsing that for a few minutes and it doesn't make sense. How would open access equate to some sort of closed access?

      They're trying to insinuate that public access means a thing must be funded by the government, and thus subject to state control. This is a silly false dichotomy of course, but such is the nature of propaganda.
      • by rewt66 ( 738525 )
        Yeah, but good propaganda doesn't leave you going, "Huh?" So this particular propaganda is likely not to fly very well.
      • It's true that if the publishers of scientific journals offered their information for free that a substantial amount of their revenue would dry up. However, not everyone would stop buying the hard copy. I'm sure that many libraries for prestigious universities would still buy the hard copy. For the average student or scientist, however, we could care less about the hard copy (it just takes up shelf space). We just want the information.

        Furthermore, they could alter their business model by charging a flat fee
    • by Metaphorically ( 841874 ) * on Thursday January 25, 2007 @06:09PM (#17759210) Homepage
      Doesn't matter if it makes sense. They just have to say it enough times and someone will rationalize it for them. Happens on blog comment threads and forums every day.
    • by jfengel ( 409917 )
      It has to do with funding. If you're publishing in a journal which doesn't pay you to publish in it, then you're getting your money from elsewhere, which often means government grants. That means that the government has the ability to clamp down on research that it doesn't like.

      If the government mandates that you have to publish in something like PubMed, and the paid journals end up going out of business (because they can't compete with "free"), then the government ends up with a lot more power of the purse
      • No scientific journals I'm aware of pay you to publish in them. Quite the contrary, authors generally pay to have their articles published.
      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by drinkypoo ( 153816 )

        It has to do with funding. If you're publishing in a journal which doesn't pay you to publish in it, then you're getting your money from elsewhere

        What? Last time I heard, you had to PAY to have your paper included in a journal, the opposite of what you describe.

        Sounds to me more like the AAP is worried that a bunch of the publishers will go out of business in a world in which they have become irrelevant.

        No great loss in my book. You shouldn't have to pay to publish science.

      • Re:I'm lost. (Score:5, Informative)

        by TheRaven64 ( 641858 ) on Thursday January 25, 2007 @06:37PM (#17759598) Journal

        If you're publishing in a journal which doesn't pay you to publish in it, then you're getting your money from elsewhere, which often means government grants.
        Are there any peer-reviewed journals that pay authors? I have had things in peer-reviewd journals, and things published in non-academic publications. Anything published in the second category, I have been paid for. Anything published in a peer-reviewed academic journal or conference, however, I have only been paid in reputation for, and in some cases authors are charged for having their work published (sometimes indirectly; conferences will only publish your work in their proceedings if you turn up to present it, and pay the conference fees).
        • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

          by Anonymous Coward
          In fact, most of the time you have to pay to be published. And god forbid you want color, then you really have to pay out the ass. Even NIH's online Biomed central charges $500 a pop to publish pdf's to the web (unless of course you are a member institution, which I am sure any research university worth a damn is).

          The scientific publishing industry is almost like a cartel, and just like the entertainment industry they are flailing wildly to try and keep a dying business model alive with FUD. My PI has de
      • Government wouldn't be able to control all of the journals due to money; with the internet, anyone can start a journal if they can afford the bandwidth. (Getting credibility is another matter...)

        If the government mandates that you have to publish in something like PubMed, and the paid journals end up going out of business (because they can't compete with "free"), then the government ends up with a lot more power of the purse over what research gets done.

        How would that be an imposition? "Okay, I'll put it i
    • I guess it depends on who is providing "public" access. Often, the word "public" implies that it's run by some sort of government. Like public parks, public transportation. If you are, in fact, relying on the government to disseminate information (or regulate the dissemination of information), then the government is in a position to meddle with what information gets disseminated. Therefore, they are in a position to censor, possibly without giving anyone the ability to complain, since they can censor th

    • by StefanJ ( 88986 )
      You know the drill:

      while(!$goodthink)
      {

      print "IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH\n";
      print "WAR IS PEACE \n";
      print "LOVE IS HATE\n";
      print "Public access equals government censorship\n";

      checkGoodthink();

      }
      • by sconeu ( 64226 )
        Your post is doubleplusungood. Please report to Room 101. The following is plusgood:

        while (ungoodthink)
        {
          print "WAR IS PEACE";
          print "FREEDOM IS SLAVERY";
          print "IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH";
          print "Public access equals government censorship\n";
         
          checkGoodthink();
        }
    • by w33t ( 978574 ) *
      Yea, I felt a bit confused when I read that too. I think it means that public access to materials means that the public can censor the government?...that still doesn't make much sense to me.

      Even if this was the implied message, I fail to see how this would be a bad thing.
    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      by arcmay ( 253138 )
      The justification for the censorship allegation is contained at the end of TFA:
      Brian Crawford, a senior vice-president at the American Chemical Society and a member of the AAP executive chair, [says]..."When any government or funding agency houses and disseminates for public consumption only the work it itself funds, that constitutes a form of selection and self-promotion of that entity's interests."

      The problem with this argument, of course, is that PubMed is not actively suppressing any materials whatsoeve
    • While the connection is tenuous at best, the logic is that SOMEONE always pays. Otherwise, the organization maintaining it can't afford to keep the lights on. So it must be fully paid for by the government in either a direct or indirect form. Whenever the government is the sole client, they have the ability to dictate the terms. This is why Soviet Union never had any Computer Science research. Because in the Soviet Union all research was government sponsored and Chrustchev decided that Computer Science
  • by s20451 ( 410424 ) on Thursday January 25, 2007 @06:00PM (#17759038) Journal
    an example of a prestigious journal published by a for-profit company? My impression is that for-profit journals only exist for the purpose of giving second-tier researchers a place to publish garbage. (All the prestigious journals in my field are published by the non-profit IEEE.)
    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Nature?
    • by Otter ( 3800 )
      Umm, Nature?

      Anyway, the issue here isn`t* for-profit versus non-profit, it`s whether open access is economically sustainable for either of them.

      * Any idea why Firefox has suddenly decided that the single-quote key should take me to search instead of typing the character?

      • * Any idea why Firefox has suddenly decided that the single-quote key should take me to search instead of typing the character?

        Google the Firefox apostrophe bug. You must be using an older version of Firefox, I haven't had that happen to me in at least half a year.

        Also, it seemed to happen to me more with two FF windows open.
      • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

        by TuringTest ( 533084 )
        Any idea why Firefox has suddenly decided that the single-quote key should take me to search instead of typing the character?

        I often have the same bug, only much worse - it happens with all keys. To fix it you can go to advanced options and disable "search for text when I start typing".
      • by FleaPlus ( 6935 )
        Umm, Nature?

        Yeah... I actually thought it was kind of funny that the parent article we're all discussing right now is from Nature.
    • Non-profits have to get money from somewhere to continue operating. If they don't get that money, then they will cease to operate after a while.
      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by Cyberax ( 705495 )
        Non-profit doesn't mean it's FREE. It means that the publishing company can't get profit from selling journals.
      • by bzipitidoo ( 647217 ) <bzipitidoo@yahoo.com> on Thursday January 25, 2007 @06:46PM (#17759716) Journal

        The whole of scientific publishing is a big racket. If you stay away from dead trees, publishing a journal is shockingly inexpensive. Peer review is customarily done for free. When journals are printed up, they are sold at prices that almost guarantee a fat profit for the printer and publisher. If ever you pony up $10 or whatever ludicrous price a publisher asks for some 10 page journal article, know that the authors get precisely 0% of that money. As if that isn't bad enough, organizers hold a conference somewhere like at a ski resort which gives them a cut rate but socks it to the attendees, among whom are pretty much all the authors whose work was accepted. The attendees can almost always pass those costs on their patrons, but for those who don't have such support....

        Authors get very little. All the authors get directly is bragging rights. The indirect compensation, only given out to "the best", is of course the tenured university teaching and research position, which is also the gateway to grant money. Sucks for researchers who haven't managed to get into that system. Also sucks for those researchers whom their patron (usually the government) cuts, especially when it's not for good reasons like their research is of poor quality but for political reasons. Someone even suggested that authors should _pay_ to have their work published! Well, scientists who aren't backed by a patron do have to pay. The RIAA cries about starving artists, but starving scientists, especially if their work is not what grant givers want to hear or believe, get treatment as bad or worse as the worst ever dished out to artists.

    • by NorbrookC ( 674063 ) on Thursday January 25, 2007 @06:16PM (#17759320) Journal

      an example of a prestigious journal published by a for-profit company?

      Well, you might start here [elsevier.com] for a start on one publisher. Quite a number of them are the "prestige" journals in their field, and are in those cases at least, stringently peer-reviewed.

      What you not know is that these articles are subject to a publication fee. So, it's actually a multi-profit system for them. They get money from the researchers, and they get money from subscriptions.

      What this is, is simply a new variation on the theme we've been through with RIAA, MPAA, and others. "OMG!!! Our profits are in danger from this Internet thing! We must DO something!" From a researcher's standpoint, it actually is a better thing if they don't have to deal with the for-profit publishers. They get their work out to the community, and they don't have to pay "reprint charges," etc. It works for other researchers and libraries, since they're not shelling out several hundred dollars each for subscriptions, and the works are easily searchable. So, of course the publishers are panicking! Their gravy train is threatened! It's FUD time!

    • by mpapet ( 761907 )
      You are forgetting the role of propaganda in influencing opinion and perceptions.

      Nevermind science! Say it enough times and make sure people can hear it and it will at the bare minimum exert influence on the debate. The propaganda keeps the facts in check for as long as possible. Americans rush to invade Iraq by actually weighing the dis-jointed propaganda that was spoonfed to them is living proof of this.

      Free is a very serious issue for text book companies too. In both cases, there is so much money to
    • by DingerX ( 847589 )
      Dunno about you guys, but in the humanities tons of prestigious journals are published by for-profit companies. Why? 'cos most of us in the "non-lucrative sciences" can't afford to set up our own journals, and someone has to manage the risk of publishing a journal where a circulation of 400 is the break-even point. When I go to my professional society's meetings, and they discussion the total assets of the society, it's on the order of 1.5*10E5. And yeah, by the way I formulated that, you know that I'm in t
      • by anagama ( 611277 )
        Print on demand?

        First you need a bunch of smart people to do the peer review. But if this typically done free as another poster mentioned, then no cost there. Then you need to get it to the people.

        Maybe I'm naive, but gone are the days when printing a book required a few thousand bucks to order a bunch of copies (journal should be cheaper than books). There are on demand prinitng companies in fact, which take the order from end customers, print the book, keep the printing costs, and send you whatever
  • Shocking! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by eviloverlordx ( 99809 ) on Thursday January 25, 2007 @06:01PM (#17759058)
    The publishers are worried that the free exchange of scientific information may be bad for the bottom line, as it might cause the money from subscriptions to their journals to dry up.


    There is already 'free exchange' of scientific information. The publishers already contribute to it. What they're really worried about is that people will publish in other media, especially where they don't have to pay (or not as much). They're just looking out for themselves. Publishers have to pay the bills and put their kids through college, too.
    • by s20451 ( 410424 )
      They're just looking out for themselves.

      Although that is true, I'm not convinced that "free" publishing entities such as PLoS have demonstrated that they are archivable, which is a much bigger issue that free exchange of information (which we already have -- I can go to my local university library and read as much as I want).

      A paper published today in a journal should continue to be available for as long as possible in the future, or the notion of a "journal" is meaningless. If nobody is paying the bills,
      • by AuMatar ( 183847 )
        Given the web, and the cheap as dirt nature of disk space, archiving is absolutely no trouble. I'd be far, far more worried about that in print magazines, where copies can get lost and a publisher can go under.
    • by joto ( 134244 )

      What they're really worried about is that people will publish in other media, especially where they don't have to pay (or not as much).

      AFAIK, you don't have to pay to publish in nature. You have to pay to get yourself a number of nature (and every university library in the world does just that).

      That being said, the publishers of nature has had tremendous power. As one of the most well-known and established scientific journals in the world, they have been able to more or less define what passes as good m

      • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

        AFAIK, you don't have to pay to publish in nature. You have to pay to get yourself a number of nature (and every university library in the world does just that).

        Scientific journal subscriptions tend to follow two paths. One, getting a subscription tends to cost a lot of money, but they're cheap to publish in. The other is the reverse: cheap to get a subscription, but it costs quite a bit to publish in. A subset of the second group (like Nature, and Science) also use ads to defray the costs. Which is why
    • What they're really worried about is that people will publish in other media, especially where they don't have to pay (or not as much).

      Aside from the fact that most journals don't charge you to publish, but do charge you to buy/download articles, the reason is control.

      Look at their current situation: The researchers around the world do the writing for them, and send the articles to them (simple web form), they dole out the articles for peer review by researchers around the world (three clicks in a da

  • by PFI_Optix ( 936301 ) on Thursday January 25, 2007 @06:02PM (#17759084) Journal
    Subscription-funded scientific journals will simply have to find alternatives to exclusivity of information.

    A funded journal would still be the best way to get the relevant information all in one place; the problem with free information is that it can be difficult to sort through for specific information. Take all the information that is freely available, pick out the best of it, do some research of your own, and publish a work that goes above and beyond the free information.

    That's what thousands of news organizations and non-science journals do every day.
    • by Bastian ( 66383 )
      Or maybe they should figure out that they'd find more customers if they would sell to the rabble.

      I'd gladly re-join the ACM (I let my membership lapse after I graduated from college) if they offered an electronic-only membership with access to their digital archives for something a little bit less outlandish than $200. Other publishers might sell more PDFs to me if they didn't charge obscene (and insulting) a la carte rates.

      They could attract new members by creating some sort of free service where they get
    • by smcdow ( 114828 )
      I know! We could make the information searchable!

      If only we had a powerful, easy to use engine that would make it easy to catalog and search content......

      Hmmm, maybe if I Googled I could find something that fit the bill...

  • by Anonymous Coward
    Once you've been in academia or the research world for a couple of decades, you'll truly understand how little peer review often means. In many respects, it's a popularity contest no different than that one would see between high school kids.

    Those researchers and academics who are most outspoken and sure they are correct end up being considered as such. As long as you consistently deny that you're wrong and insist that you're correct, many fellow researchers and academics will believe you, even if you're co
    • by mollymoo ( 202721 ) on Thursday January 25, 2007 @06:37PM (#17759600) Journal
      Peer review isn't perfect, but do you have a better suggestion? Publish everything and have every working scientist spend most of their time reviewing every one of the papers published in their field every month to see if there is anything relevant to their work? I don't think that's very pracical. Peer review is the best filter anyone has so far invented for scientific publishing, despite its flaws.
    • This is just more old media vs new media hoohah. Don't confuse peer review with public access. You've been dragged in by the spinmeisters described in the article.

      I was only in the academic world for a couple of years, and helped peer review a couple papers for a professor of mine. In my smallish field (transportation operations research) there was no market for "vanity" journals like there are in some fields.

      Maybe some fields are more politically charged than others, mine was certainly not one subject to p
    • by Manchot ( 847225 )
      Peer review's still better than the alternative. We already have this alternative: it's called the Internet, and it's full of nonsense like "OMG! QUANTUM MECHANICS IS WRONG!" *cough* Randall Mills *cough*
    • Peer review may be of little value for articles by people who are stars of their field, but that is just a tiny fraction of the articles submitted for publishing. For the rest, peer review filters out incredible amounts of junk (I *have* seen the rejections), and improve the rest significantly (that is called "accepted with major/minor revisions").

      [ I have been in "academia" for two decades. ]
    • by TheRaven64 ( 641858 ) on Thursday January 25, 2007 @07:16PM (#17760096) Journal
      I think the real problem is that peer review happens before publication, not after. In an ideal world, you would publish everything. Feynman said that if you only publish your successes then you are cheating the research community, and I agree. I have learned a great deal by looking at failed research and seeing that they came close to the right answer, but couldn't see it because they were too close to the problem.

      You can't really judge research when it is done; this is why people tend to receive Nobel Prizes for research they did decades earlier. Your peers are also your competitors, and it's not in their interests to promote good research that produces different conclusions to their own. No paper, no matter how wrong it appears to its reviewers, should ever be denied publication now that publication online costs nothing. Instead, the journals should add value by highlighting the papers that represent the current views of the research community, and also those that were important in forming these views.

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by vadim_t ( 324782 )
        Did Feynman really mean that?

        I've heard that somebody did a study of whether chewing gum of different sorts produces a measurable effect on an EEG. The result was that no, it doesn't. That's what I think Feynman meant: they had a hypothesis, and very scientifically determined the experiment was a failure, but still should be published, if only to add to the information about what shows up on an EEG and what doesn't.

        Now, in my understanding, peer review is to tell apart things that are well researched from
    • Those researchers and academics who are most outspoken and sure they are correct end up being considered as such.

      The problem I see with scientific publication is a bit different. The problem is not that the scientific community comes to the wrong consensus. The problem is that the scientific community doesn't come to a consensus at all.

      Rather than being due to the peer review process, this problem is due to the whole system of scientific publication. To look successful a scientist has to publish journal ar

    • Wow, that's truly insulting to the many honest men and women who do academic research. I beg to differ with your assessment. People who peer review papers often look deep enough to catch significant issues, but the main goal is to assess the basic integrity of the data presented. Could and experiment have been done better? Are more controls needed? Do the conclusions not fit the results?

      Those researchers and academics who are most outspoken and sure they are correct end up being considered as such. As

  • 'The consultant advised them to focus on simple messages, such as "Public access equals government censorship"'

    Why not go for the gold?

    "Ignorance equals Strength"

    "War equals Peace"

    "Black equals White"

    They're much simpler...and truthier!
  • by cpearson ( 809811 )
    "Public access equals government censorship". This is a quote destin to inflame the /. community.

    kinda like this sig... Vista Help Forum [vistahelpforum.com]
  • ...where we have exactly as much science as the free market will bear.

    Honestly, if the 'exclusive information' route of making a science organization doesn't allow them to be solvent, we as a society need to reconsider how we fund such organizations. Can they be funded by the government in a way that will allow them to act acceptably independent of government influence? Can they be community funded to an acceptable level of reliability? Subscriptions to exclusive information for libraries doesn't seem to
    • by s20451 ( 410424 )
      Can they be funded by the government

      They already are. For example, arXiv was hosted at Los Alamos National Laboratory until recently, and many state employees (i.e., university professors) devote time and energy to the proper functioning of free journals. (Most professors are required to devote a small portion of their time to "administration", which can include editorships of journals.)
  • we have round one.

    When their subscriptions actually do dry up, or they change their business model to accomodate the movement, victory will be ours!
  • The tax-payer pays for the research to be carried out. The research results are then given away to the publishers, who get other researchers to carry out quality control (at the tax-payers' expense). The publishers then sell it back to the researchers for a subscription that is paid by the tax-payer.

    Quality control of the information collection is done by peer reviewers (who really do it for free), not by publishers, who only exist because it was necessary in the past for someone to organize all the communi
  • by Irvu ( 248207 ) on Thursday January 25, 2007 @06:13PM (#17759276)
    So efforts to promote science to the general public by making the product of science available for the general public (improving scientific education, etc) are "government censorship" while locking things in overproced journals (Acta Chemica has a $1300/year price tag) is not? They look more and more like the RIAA every day.

    Publishing is fundamentally a service industry. What the publishers provide is some task (e.g. binding copies to dead-tree format) that is difficult. With the advent of the interweb many of these tasks (e.g. shipping copies around the world) have become much easier. There is still a market for publishers of science and music (e.g. Special editions, bound works, and stuff that is "better than free") but rather than chase those niches the publishers have chosen to attack their own readers and authors.

    This is especially hilarious when you consider the difference. Odd as it may seem, compared to this group, at least the RIAA has some leg to stand on. The RIAA is trading stuff that is typically not shared wheras the entire process of science is based upon sharing things freely and widely. That is how everything works from peer review to the spurring of new developments. At least the RIAA hires their music editors and producers while most editors of scientific journals are paid by their home universities and do this task for free in order to spur the exchange of information. Similarly most musicians are paid by the music producers while most authors of scientific papers are not paid by the publishers in any way rather its the other way around because the authors have to pay for subscriptions to read their own work.

    This excange starts to look less and less fair all the time. Especially since more and more people are seeking out papers online rather than in the dead-tree forms.

    Viva XXX [lanl.gov] and PLOS [plos.org].
  • A lot of research is taxpayer funded. Shame if the taxpayers get the information without paying a "prestigious journal" publisher.
  • In their faces (Score:4, Insightful)

    by drooling-dog ( 189103 ) on Thursday January 25, 2007 @06:17PM (#17759338)
    I predict that this PR campaign will blow up in their faces, big-time. Their target audience this time isn't the unwashed masses camped in front of the tee-vee; it's people who know how to think (and even do so from time to time). Hilarity will ensue as the big smack-down gains momentum.
  • ... but I waana get somethin for others peoples works....

    I understand publishers get money from subscribers and advertiser and pay out to their writers and in the case of research journals that might even sponsor some of the research.

    But maybe this is the horse and cart being removed due to increased car usage.

    Public access equates to government censorship????

    It would be nice if the government was more inline with what the people want.
    But even then it wouldn't be a "public access equates to government censo
  • are the same as all other publishers, only trying to protect their interests. And like the others, they distrust "free", and even more so the concept of self publishing that doesn't pass through their gates, just like the RIAA. If these gatekeepers want to insure their value, then they just have to prove that what they publish is more valuable or trustworthy than the self publisher. Interesting FUD they're putting out though.
  • by Vellmont ( 569020 ) on Thursday January 25, 2007 @06:27PM (#17759488) Homepage
    Maybe this kind of propoganda campaign might work for the masses (see death tax, global climate change, and Fox News), but I kind of doubt it'll work on the scientific community who by their very nature tend to question. The other nail against them is that from what I've heard, many scientists don't like the high fees they have to pay for publishing in journals, so there's not exactly a friendly trusting relationship between the two.

    Instead of trying to trick people into thinking that free access to information is somehow "bad", maybe they should be emphasizing the things they do provide? I'm not expert on the scientific journals, but I thought one of the things they provided was seperating out the complete junk from legit research. A filter of sorts. Do they currently offer help in editing scientific papers? If not, maybe they should? The question the industry should be asking itself is "What do we provide beyond actually printing and sending out paper?" Previously they've been able to take advantage of controlling distribution, since printing and distribution of information was relatively difficult. Now it's obviously trivial and extremely inexpensive.

    It seems to me that free access to scientific information is a reality. Both the people who create the information (the scientists) and the people who read it (mostly scientists) want it to be freely available. Trying to fight it rather than adapt to it is a path towards bankruptcy.

    • by drinkypoo ( 153816 ) <drink@hyperlogos.org> on Thursday January 25, 2007 @06:53PM (#17759818) Homepage Journal
      Instead of trying to trick people into thinking that free access to information is somehow "bad", maybe they should be emphasizing the things they do provide?

      But first they would have to provide something of value.

      I'm not expert on the scientific journals, but I thought one of the things they provided was seperating out the complete junk from legit research. A filter of sorts. Do they currently offer help in editing scientific papers? If not, maybe they should?

      What they offer is a panel of scientists to whom your article is sent before it appears in their journal. These people then get to review it prior to publishing. This is unnecessary today; you just publish your paper on the internet, and then people review it. People can easily find reviews of your paper with google, unlike in a dead-tree-only model, where without a review process as part of the journal submission process, you would have to search manually though paper publications to find reviews of the paper in question. Basically their business model has expired and they are looking for lies to tell to bolster it, because they can't think of any legislation they could afford to solve the problem for them.

      It seems to me that free access to scientific information is a reality. Both the people who create the information (the scientists) and the people who read it (mostly scientists) want it to be freely available. Trying to fight it rather than adapt to it is a path towards bankruptcy.

      It's not clear that there's a lot of adaptation to be done, although I think they could limp along for a while by providing free or nearly free websites that handle the review process, and then charged people for dead tree editions compiled from material on the website monthly. Some schmucks would buy it. Ultimately nothing short of getting into another business is going to save them because a site (or network of sites) similar to Wikipedia could replace all of those scientific journals.

      • Hmm.. I'm not convinced there's not a nitch that these journals couldn't fill. They still need someone to figure out who reviews each paper for publication. They still need someone to do layout, manage publication, etc. Who's to say that scientific writers don't want/need help writing papers? Other scientists still will want to go to a respected authority that's done some filtering of junk. If the publications don't adapt, that respected authority is just going to be large Universities, or a large gov
  • Public access equals government censorship.
    Freedom equals slavery.
    Every "illegal" download euqals a lost sale.

    Looks like another legacy industry lying to protect their outmoded business model. After all, if they're selling something of real value (e.g. peer reviewed articles) to the consumer then they have nothing to fear. However, if they've only controlled the flow to this information due to a high barrier of entry in the past that technology has mostly erased now, then let them go down -- and the f

  • by geekoid ( 135745 )
    Enjoy your buggy whip business while you can!

  • by gsn ( 989808 ) on Thursday January 25, 2007 @06:58PM (#17759898)
    Complete rubbish. Physics has had preprint servers like arxiv for 15 years now, and the American Physical Society (APS) found NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER that subscriptions were drying up because of arxiv. APS publishes a large number of journals at that. I can find things much easier through arxiv but if I'm going to cite something then its going to be peer reviewed. APS actually felt that preprint servers helped so setup one with Brookhaven, and link to a number of their own webpage. Their attrition rate has remained very constant over the same time period and probably has more to do with shrinking funds. The preprint servers help us. Our group put out a couple of papers recently and we got some constructive feedback from people reading the preprints of astro-ph - and some of the points mentioned the referee didn't catch. Its a stronger paper as a result. The preprint servers are also frequently much easier to search for current literature than the journals sites. They have their problems - theres a good number of completely crazy papers on them and its sort of annoying to sift through them - look for submitted to/accepted for publication in the comment field. In short they are great for easy information access and the journals are great for enforcing quality control. The public access to information is an added bonus. Yes, open access to scientific journals AND data should be mandatory. The journals won't die because they do still provide a valuable service in peer-review.
  • by Per Abrahamsen ( 1397 ) on Thursday January 25, 2007 @07:07PM (#17759986) Homepage
    I'm kind of surprised to see an article calling attention to an upcoming FUD campaign by the traditional publishers, in a traditionally published journal.

    Pleasantly surprised, but still it seems to me that there is an interesting story hidden there.
  • It's everywhere... (Score:3, Informative)

    by Eric Damron ( 553630 ) on Thursday January 25, 2007 @07:38PM (#17760384)
    "The consultant advised them to focus on simple messages, such as "Public access equals government censorship."

    Simple sound bites are used because people respond. Most people don't want to take the effort to absorb anything more complicated. God knows we wouldn't want to have to think for ourselves.

    And have you ever noticed that the sound bites don't even have to be true? "Public access equals government censorship." "The war in Iraq is a war on terrorism." "The jury is out on global warming."

    I've also noted that if you dig deep enough you find that it's all about money and power.

  • by Michael Woodhams ( 112247 ) on Thursday January 25, 2007 @08:03PM (#17760788) Journal
    Here [doaj.org] is a directory of open access journals. One of the requirements for inclusion is "Quality control: for a journal to be included it should exercise quality control on submitted papers through an editor, editorial board and/or a peer-review system."

  • by Petronius Arbiter ( 548328 ) on Thursday January 25, 2007 @11:13PM (#17763028)

    The publishers' real problem is not free journals, but rather libraries trying to stop paying the publishers' vastly increased charges. "Free journals" is merely the latest library tactic.

    Many librarians and researchers didn't start out caring about the principle of free journals. The publishers' greed forced it on them. Even major research libraries are cancelling subscriptions. The libraries are doing that because the journal prices have been increasing so fast. First the libraries tried switching from paper copies to online subscriptions. So the publishers raised the online prices. Further, the publishers bundled many journals together so that libraries could not cancel the least used titles. The libraries try to form consortia to share subscriptions, but the publishers' license terms stop that.

    Even "free" journals cost someone money. PLOS is quite expensive to publish in. Their model is charging the author not the reader.

    One factor driving rising journal prices is the increased concentration as big publishers like Elsevier buy their competitors. Some years ago, Elsevier stated their business model as, approximately, serving assistant profs trying to get tenure. In 2005, their profit was 655 million euros on income of 2097 million euros ( http://www.reed-elsevier.com/ [reed-elsevier.com] ) That's not a bad profit margin.

    Journals are priced like drugs, at what the market is perceived to bear. That can be up to $2/page (w/o even any color) ( http://www.ams.org/membership/journal-survey.html [ams.org] )

    Journals are obsolete. They're slow to publish, rarely have color, don't have videos, etc. We academics publish in them because administrators use them to judge us. However, when we need something, we search the web, not the libraries. I put my own research first on the web, so that people can find it. Later I write papers.

    Finally, to respond to the comment that publicly funded work should be free: That would be nice, but there's a US law giving universities ownership in discoveries resulting from NSF-funded research. What do other countries do?

For God's sake, stop researching for a while and begin to think!

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