slimjim8094 writes "A mechanical device from 150BC was found in a shipwreck. Upon examination with X-Rays, the device appeared to be a revolutionary computer used to calculate lunar cycles. This device "is technically more complex than any known for at least a millennium afterward." From the article
"The hand-operated mechanism, presumably used in preparing calendars for planting and harvesting and fixing religious festivals, had at least 30, possibly 37, hand-cut bronze gear-wheels, the researchers said. A pin-and-slot device connecting two gear-wheels induced variations in the representation of lunar motions according to the Hipparchos model of the Moon's elliptical orbit around Earth."
This new evidence clearly proves that the Egyptian pyramids were built by aliens with psychic powers able to time travel using Soviet technology acquired by opening a portal into Nostradamus' talking colostomy bag from the future!
Yeh, this astrolube, ummm, labe, was probably one that got torpedoed in WW 2.5x10^-15 by the Proto-Soviets, who somehow bombed themselves into the future, but went broke and couldn't go back in time, so maybe this was another "Enigma" machine. Now, wouldn't THAT be, umm, enigmatic?
Wikipedia.... look out Shakra and the Sleetaks might be coming back...
I know you're joking, but given the fact that we're finding old stuff based on some pretty intense knowledge, I'm starting to think that Graham Hancock might be right about us being older, as a race, than we think we are. [grahamhancock.com] He attracts a lot of criticisms, but mostly from egyptologists because his interpretations of artifacts found contradict theirs. The book is an excellent read though.
"How much damage to civilization the Romans actualy did." I am rather perplexed by this statement. A list of contributions to civilization made by Rome could include: -world class civil engineering: there are many structures built by Roman engineers still standing and a number are still in use -the concept of republican government (and I mean in the sense of a body of legislators elected by citizens empowered to conduct community business; not the US political party) -extensive body of literature and philosophy which forms much of the foundation of Western civilization today and is still relevant -preserved Greek literature, structures, and philosophy and incorporated same into Roman culture -demonstrated that a large political body composed of many regions incorporating a variety of cultures and races could be established and be stable and peaceful I am not saying that Rome was perfect and obviously its society eventually became corrupt and thus vulnerable to destruction, but it is absurd to talk about Roman damage to civilization.
All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?
According to Steven Wright, he was paid gobs of money by the US government for years to research who financed the pyramids.
After a couple of decades, he told them "It was this guy named Eddie."
Now, I ask you: is Wright an Iron Maiden fan, where Eddie would tie into the whole Egypt/mummy thing, or a Van Halen fan?
That was the idea at first, but they were limited by technology and had to settle on pyramids. It is well known that the best shape for a spaceship is a cube. That's why they never got off earth.
Being a lunar calendar I think they used them so they would know when to hide from the werewolves. Either that or to predict the full moon so they would know the best nights for outdoor toga parties.
Honestly, does every artifact have to be religious? You'd think the ancients never did anything secular.
Perhaps you should take some set theory. Astrolabes are subsets of computers, I would think. Perhaps the article is stretching the significance, but it is a device to perform calculations, like gun targeting computers, and Babbage's computational engines.
When you look at devices like this, the precision construction of the pyramids, the alignment of Stonehenge, and some of the Aztec and Mayan engineering in North America, it's pretty clear that the "primitive" people weren't as primitive as we might think.
Even without hard mathematics, a great deal of engineering can be done with simple tools:
Circles are obvious -- a center pin, a string or rod, and the marker.
Two center pins and a loop of string to make that ellipses.
Estimation of position via chords
Basic linear geometry via subdivision of angles -- taught to every high school student for years.
The interesting thing to me is that despite the varied religious and social backgrounds of the regions, every single case seemed to reserve that knowledge of basic engineering for some form of priesthood. Some say that this indicates there was a global or root religion, whether some form of Freemasonry, Kabal, Egyptian, or older religion.
Personally I think it's the obvious outgrowth of all those people living in a world that conforms to the same physical laws, properties, and geometry. No matter what language was used to describe the technique for inscribing a circle, the actual work done would have been the same.
I've even heard some people postulate that such primitive peoples "worshipped math and geometry". I suppose that's so in the largest scope, but I think it was a worship of knowledge and learning, not of mathematics per se.
It's also interesting how certain proportions and combinations of those basic shapes repeat across history and cultures. It's like we're hardwired to find those combinations comforting and familiar, no matter how they've been used.
Sinuous shapes are much less common. Only a few societies seem to have made regular use of constructs like "French curves" on a large scale, and only in more recent times. Combined with mythos of evil or powerful serpents and dragons, perhaps those symbols actually indicated rare individuals who could work with and visualize those formulas. After all, there is no denying that people working with advanced mathematics seem to intuit solutions, then prove the answer correct, or work through the details of the calculation.
Perhaps the "wizards" of old were those rare individuals, and the dragons they helped slay were actually charts and graphs predicting eclipses and such, misunderstood by peasants who saw scribblings on parchment or castle walls that they could only interpret as being pictures of some fantastical beast.:)
In our case, it's been over a thousand years, longer than either Greece or arguably Rome.
Which modern "empires" would those be?
The US, Canada, and Australia are about 200 years old.
The EU has been broken and reformed in different countries and pacts repeatedly for a century. Only a few of the European countries have had anything like stable borders or socio-economic management styles (government.) Even the UK isn't 1000 years old.
The oldest cultures of Asia and India are still not stable socio-eco
Overly complex and tediously designed. It sounds like a prototype.
The production version probably had a sleek plastic case and LED display, but probably only supported lunar cycle calculation and none of the other farming predictors or epicycle calculators.
This device is fairly well known by now. Google generates 455.000 hits on the Antikythera and has more than 800 images, including a 2005 X-ray image at Wikipedia.
This device is fairly well known by now. Google generates 455.000 hits on the Antikythera and has more than 800 images, including a 2005 X-ray image at Wikipedia
I find this google news link [slashdot.org] rather informative myself.;)
This device is fairly well known by now. Google generates 455.000 hits on the Antikythera and has more than 800 images, including a 2005 X-ray image at Wikipedia.
NPR radio said that it appeared in Greek literature that other complex devices were used by the wealthy to amuse guests.
Currently I have a Nixie clock for the same 'guest amusement' function. In several millennium when this creation is rediscovered it will seem oddly complex and mysterious. Bill Gates and Scott McNealy, what mysterious technical devices are in your living room?
Microsoft Corp has filed a lawsuit against the Ancient Greeks, asserting IP violations stretching as far back as 2100 years ago. Microsoft CEO Steve Balmer was quote as saying 'Microsoft reserves the right to protect its intellectual property for the benefit of innovation. Essentially, if you as a company CEO were to ask me if you had a balance-sheet liability for using the Antikythera Mechanism, my answer would have to be yes'.
Hipparchos, the alleged creator of the Antikythera Mechanism, could not be reache
It is not clear to me if the sophistication label given to it is due to the mechanics or the math. It appears to be in the math rather than so much the mechanics. But that is not surprising since the ancient greeks put more stock in math than mechanics. They didn't need mechanical devices because they had slaves.
"But that is not surprising since the ancient greeks put more stock in math than mechanics."
The term "Archimedes screw" has nothing to do with Greek orgies.
"They didn't need mechanical devices because they had slaves."
I suppose next you will tell us that no slave was ever given a plough to work the fields. Slaves must be caught, bought, domesticated, fed, watered, clothed, housed, ect, they are not without cost, they are mearly the cheapest form of labour. Today's slaves are called "factory workers
Post: A mechanical device from 150BC was found in a shipwreck. Upon examination with X-Rays, the device appeared to be a revolutionary computer used to calculate lunar cycles. This device "is technically more complex than any known for at least a millennium afterward."
Translation: Some crank ex-programmer was gearing up for a raise with the loony idea of cyclic checks, and was ready to ship the classy object in C when it began to wreack havoc and the whole thing sunk. A new developer tried to insert a byte to handle the Y1K bug.
by Anonymous Coward
on Thursday November 30 2006, @05:50AM (#17046956)
Just make a search on De Solla Prices diagram of the antikytheras.
Simple math that we all can understand.
The sun gear has 64 teeth. It meshes with the smaller of a 38,48 gear pair. The 48 meshes with the smaller of a 24,127 gear pair. The 127 meshes with the 32 teeth of the moon gear. The ratio of angular speeds can then be calculated as (64/38) x (48/24) x (127/32)=(254/19) = 13.36842..
which is an excellent approximation of the astronomical ratio 13.368267..
This corresponds with the Metonic cycle, in which 19 solar years correspond exactly with 235 lunations,and therefore with 254 sidereal revolutions of the Moon.
Thus. for every 19 (direct) turns of the main drive wheel; this produces 2,356/2 revolutions of the whole differential turntable, and all the gears mounted upon it.
This is just awsome. You can pin point where the moon will be located, just by turning one wheel a certain number of time, according to what year is it. Thus, you can tell what the tide will look like days, weeks, months ahead of your trip at sea.
How come this device died and disapeared for centuries? Given the Egyptians knowledge of the earths equinox, this was the key to discover America way before Colombus did.
How come this device died and disapeared for centuries? Given the Egyptians knowledge of the earths equinox, this was the key to discover America way before Colombus did.
Someone found it could also play music, and they lost all interest in finding america....
The decline of Greek culture started with the Roman conquest of the Greek empire. (Some would argue that it started with the emergence of a Greek empire itself.) Items like the Antikythera mechanism that took a highly skilled, well educated artisan with access to exceptionally good tools and high quality raw materials quite some time to make became more and more rare. Add this to the fact that such accuracy isn't really needed and a sufficiently well educated person could do the calculations for twenty year
The decline of Greek culture started with the Roman conquest of the Greek empire. (Some would argue that it started with the emergence of a Greek empire itself.)
Technology is culture. Every viable technology requires a group of practioners large enough to transmit it across generations. That means they must have the resources to train apprentices and sufficient prospect of future revenues from their work to attract capable people.
The Athenian Greek leisure class (free adult male citizens) were interested
But for some centuries Roman intellectual and technological power was centered in the West, and it is likely that the techological community that created this device would have migrated west as Roman power grew in the 1st century. So when the Western Empire fell, there is a good chance that the community was no longer able to sustain itself, if it had not already failed due to the vast increases in economic hardship during that last century before the final division of the Empire and the collapse of the We
There a number of examples in history where a single genius invents a lot of amazing stuff in a short period of time. New discovered universal gravition, calculas, and optics. Galileo discovered lows of motion and telescope. Imhotep pretty invented the pyramids. You can see his intermediate projects from mastaba to step pyramids to true stone ones. Archimedes and so on...
There are probably many such geniuses unrecorded in history. Writing systems appear fair ly suddenly in dyanastic Egpyt and the alphabet in Urgait. Other historians suggest long transitional phases, with some evidence. But I can equally envison some light-bulb guy doing this in a single career.
Perhaps the clock machinist was one of these geniuses.
What was posted earlier was a pre-story. Basically, that this latest research had finished and was going to be presented at the end of the month. It has now been presented, and this story covers the details that were not covered in the pre-story.
I believe the "news" this time is that the internals have recently been imaged in high resolution by non-invasive techniques, thus revealing more detail about its workings and purpose. This BBC article tells more, and mentions a Radio 4 programme to be shown on 12th December.
Here it is, just with a different news source, and only five days ago
That story lacks details, and notes that the research with the details will be presented on November 30th. That's today, and the present story covers those details.
I knew it! (Score:5, Funny)
Watch out Wikipedia, here come my edits!!!
Re:I knew it! Land that time forgot? (Score:2)
Wikipedia.... look out Shakra and the Sleetaks might be coming back...
Re:I knew it! (Score:5, Interesting)
I know you're joking, but given the fact that we're finding old stuff based on some pretty intense knowledge, I'm starting to think that Graham Hancock might be right about us being older, as a race, than we think we are. [grahamhancock.com] He attracts a lot of criticisms, but mostly from egyptologists because his interpretations of artifacts found contradict theirs. The book is an excellent read though.
Though aliens would be fun too, I suppose...
Parent
Re:I knew it! (Score:4, Insightful)
No, it just shows how much damage to civilisation the Romans actualy did. This is an important point in the days of Pax Americana.
Parent
Re:I knew it! (Score:4, Insightful)
-world class civil engineering: there are many structures built by Roman engineers still standing and a number are still in use
-the concept of republican government (and I mean in the sense of a body of legislators elected by citizens empowered to conduct community business; not the US political party)
-extensive body of literature and philosophy which forms much of the foundation of Western civilization today and is still relevant
-preserved Greek literature, structures, and philosophy and incorporated same into Roman culture
-demonstrated that a large political body composed of many regions incorporating a variety of cultures and races could be established and be stable and peaceful
I am not saying that Rome was perfect and obviously its society eventually became corrupt and thus vulnerable to destruction, but it is absurd to talk about Roman damage to civilization.
Parent
Re:I knew it! (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:I knew it! (Score:4, Funny)
After a couple of decades, he told them "It was this guy named Eddie."
Now, I ask you: is Wright an Iron Maiden fan, where Eddie would tie into the whole Egypt/mummy thing, or a Van Halen fan?
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Swi
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Honestly, does every artifact have to be religious? You'd think the ancients never did anything secular.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Anyone who knows anything about Stargate knows that the pyramids were the landing pads, not the spaceships themselves!
So it's an astrolabe? (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm only in history 101, and I knew what it was from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrolabe [wikipedia.org]
Re:So it's an astrolabe? (Score:5, Insightful)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_Computer [wikipedia.org]
Parent
Ancient Engineering (Score:5, Insightful)
When you look at devices like this, the precision construction of the pyramids, the alignment of Stonehenge, and some of the Aztec and Mayan engineering in North America, it's pretty clear that the "primitive" people weren't as primitive as we might think.
Even without hard mathematics, a great deal of engineering can be done with simple tools:
The interesting thing to me is that despite the varied religious and social backgrounds of the regions, every single case seemed to reserve that knowledge of basic engineering for some form of priesthood. Some say that this indicates there was a global or root religion, whether some form of Freemasonry, Kabal, Egyptian, or older religion.
Personally I think it's the obvious outgrowth of all those people living in a world that conforms to the same physical laws, properties, and geometry. No matter what language was used to describe the technique for inscribing a circle, the actual work done would have been the same.
I've even heard some people postulate that such primitive peoples "worshipped math and geometry". I suppose that's so in the largest scope, but I think it was a worship of knowledge and learning, not of mathematics per se.
It's also interesting how certain proportions and combinations of those basic shapes repeat across history and cultures. It's like we're hardwired to find those combinations comforting and familiar, no matter how they've been used.
Sinuous shapes are much less common. Only a few societies seem to have made regular use of constructs like "French curves" on a large scale, and only in more recent times. Combined with mythos of evil or powerful serpents and dragons, perhaps those symbols actually indicated rare individuals who could work with and visualize those formulas. After all, there is no denying that people working with advanced mathematics seem to intuit solutions, then prove the answer correct, or work through the details of the calculation.
Perhaps the "wizards" of old were those rare individuals, and the dragons they helped slay were actually charts and graphs predicting eclipses and such, misunderstood by peasants who saw scribblings on parchment or castle walls that they could only interpret as being pictures of some fantastical beast. :)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Which modern "empires" would those be?
The US, Canada, and Australia are about 200 years old.
The EU has been broken and reformed in different countries and pacts repeatedly for a century. Only a few of the European countries have had anything like stable borders or socio-economic management styles (government.) Even the UK isn't 1000 years old.
The oldest cultures of Asia and India are still not stable socio-eco
Probably a prototype (Score:5, Funny)
The production version probably had a sleek plastic case and LED display, but probably only supported lunar cycle calculation and none of the other farming predictors or epicycle calculators.
It was the Greek Apple, so to speak. The Grappa.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
i-Strolabe
Re: (Score:2)
At least it wasn't the Grapple [grapplefruits.com].
The Antikythera (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
I find this google news link [slashdot.org] rather informative myself. ;)
Re:The Antikythera (Score:4, Insightful)
More so, Google generates more than 110 hits on the Antikythera on slashdot.org [google.com] (I hope the link is functioning this time)
Parent
What mysterious tommorow devices from today? (Score:3, Interesting)
Currently I have a Nixie clock for the same 'guest amusement' function. In several millennium when this creation is rediscovered it will seem oddly complex and mysterious. Bill Gates and Scott McNealy, what mysterious technical devices are in your living room?
So whats a Nixie? Forgot already have we? Jeff Thomas and Laurence Wilkins build good Nixie clocks.
http://www.amug.org/~jthomas/clockpage.html [amug.org]
Cheers,
Jim Burke
Greek geek showmanship... (Score:5, Funny)
Oh oh...up next.. (Score:2, Funny)
Microsoft CEO Steve Balmer was quote as saying 'Microsoft reserves the right to protect its intellectual property for the benefit of innovation. Essentially, if you as a company CEO were to ask me if you had a balance-sheet liability for using the Antikythera Mechanism, my answer would have to be yes'.
Hipparchos, the alleged creator of the Antikythera Mechanism, could not be reache
Imagine if that ship hadn't wrecked (Score:5, Insightful)
*looks outside* Darn, still no flying cars!
Re:Imagine if that ship hadn't wrecked (Score:5, Insightful)
Why would you assume that this was device was unique?
It seems much more likely that this kind of object was rare (ie, difficult and expensive to build) rather than unique.
It is important to remember that the ancients were just as intelligent as we are. In many cases they were also civilised and well-educated.
Parent
Sophistication - Math or machine? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
The term "Archimedes screw" has nothing to do with Greek orgies.
"They didn't need mechanical devices because they had slaves."
I suppose next you will tell us that no slave was ever given a plough to work the fields. Slaves must be caught, bought, domesticated, fed, watered, clothed, housed, ect, they are not without cost, they are mearly the cheapest form of labour. Today's slaves are called "factory workers
Moo (Score:3, Funny)
Translation: Some crank ex-programmer was gearing up for a raise with the loony idea of cyclic checks, and was ready to ship the classy object in C when it began to wreack havoc and the whole thing sunk. A new developer tried to insert a byte to handle the Y1K bug.
In related news... (Score:3, Funny)
It wasn't actually bronze! (Score:2, Funny)
Obligatory (Score:2, Funny)
Maybe time to add a few more gears (Score:2)
The goods (Score:3, Informative)
See it move (Score:3, Informative)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/n
Math wise, simple yet briliant (Score:5, Interesting)
Simple math that we all can understand.
The sun gear has 64 teeth.
It meshes with the smaller of a 38,48 gear pair.
The 48 meshes with the smaller of a 24,127 gear pair.
The 127 meshes with the 32 teeth of the moon gear.
The ratio of angular speeds can then be calculated as (64/38) x (48/24) x (127/32)=(254/19) = 13.36842..
which is an excellent approximation of the astronomical ratio 13.368267..
This corresponds with the Metonic cycle, in which 19 solar years correspond exactly with 235 lunations,and therefore with 254 sidereal revolutions of the Moon.
Thus. for every 19 (direct) turns of the main drive wheel; this produces 2,356/2 revolutions of the whole differential turntable, and all the gears mounted upon it.
This is just awsome. You can pin point where the moon will be located, just by turning one wheel a certain number of time, according to what year is it. Thus, you can tell what the tide will look like days, weeks, months ahead of your trip at sea.
How come this device died and disapeared for centuries? Given the Egyptians knowledge of the earths equinox, this was the key to discover America way before Colombus did.
Re:Math wise, simple yet briliant (Score:4, Funny)
Someone found it could also play music, and they lost all interest in finding america....
Parent
my guess: it was overly difficult to make (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Technology is culture. Every viable technology requires a group of practioners large enough to transmit it across generations. That means they must have the resources to train apprentices and sufficient prospect of future revenues from their work to attract capable people.
The Athenian Greek leisure class (free adult male citizens) were interested
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
But for some centuries Roman intellectual and technological power was centered in the West, and it is likely that the techological community that created this device would have migrated west as Roman power grew in the 1st century. So when the Western Empire fell, there is a good chance that the community was no longer able to sustain itself, if it had not already failed due to the vast increases in economic hardship during that last century before the final division of the Empire and the collapse of the We
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Except for one part: the Mediterranean has barely any tide.
So, they would use it for other things, but not that.
pwned (Score:3, Funny)
single genius possible (Score:3, Interesting)
There are probably many such geniuses unrecorded in history. Writing systems appear fair ly suddenly in dyanastic Egpyt and the alphabet in Urgait. Other historians suggest long transitional phases, with some evidence. But I can equally envison some light-bulb guy doing this in a single career.
Perhaps the clock machinist was one of these geniuses.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Not Again (Score:5, Insightful)
What was posted earlier was a pre-story. Basically, that this latest research had finished and was going to be presented at the end of the month. It has now been presented, and this story covers the details that were not covered in the pre-story.
Parent
Re:Not Again (Score:5, Informative)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6191462.stm [bbc.co.uk]
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Hmm, 2.314x10^6 Hz would give 1.99x10^11 dupes per day, or 9.99x10^11 every five days. I don't think there are that many.
Re: (Score:2)
Brett
Re:erm ... (Score:5, Informative)
That story lacks details, and notes that the research with the details will be presented on November 30th. That's today, and the present story covers those details.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)