Panel Confirms S. Korean Cloning Fraud

mmell writes "South Korean cloning scientist Hwang Woo-suk created a stir when he claimed to have successfully cloned human stem cells, claims which were almost immediately viewed with skepticism in the scientific community. Now an article on the BBC's website chronicles the doctor's final fall from grace as nine scientists empanelled at Seoul University conclude that Doctor Hwang's sensational claims were in fact an elaborate fraud (although they have also confirmed that Doctor Hwang's prior claim to have cloned a dog appears to be valid)." Confirmation of the investigation begun last week.

Re:I love academia

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it's more like. "That's deeply disappointing. But A) we're not going to take your word for how far you claim the fraud goes -- we're going to evaluate everything you have ever done; *deliberation* B) fortunately, it appears not all your work is fraudulent. This work is bogus, and this is not."

The goal is to excise the fraudulent stuff, and see what, if anything, remains. In this case, the panel's result isn't "No you didn't", it is "Yes you did, right up to this point here."

It's like fixing a house when you have discovered some rot -- you tear out the parts that are rotten, and make sure you have gotten it all, then you start rebuilding.

National reputation

[drgonzo59]

This story brings up an interesting point. I wonder if there is such a thing as collective integrity or morality when dealing with a whole country not just individuals. Typically such words as morality, integrity, honesty are attributed to individuals, but I wonder if they also can be attributed to whole countries.

For whatever reason it seems that in some countries the level of dishonesty and corruption is higher. There might be a good reason for it such as poverty, authoritarian government, and so on. The reason I bring this is up is because as guilty as Hwang is he didn't act alone. Some of his collaborators knew about it, but in general I think the same stuff would be very likely to go on in South Korea, because of some specific socal or cultural factors. Somebody mentioned on the news how scientists in many Asian countries achieve this level of celebrity. As Americans we would not even understand this easily - young teenagers wanting to hang up posters of Bohr in their bedrooms instead of posters of Paris Hilton!? One one side this is admirable as it bring up people who want to learn for the sake of learning, on the other side it puts enourmous pressure on the scientist. It is also difficult when the goverment is very authoritarian and will provide funding but then will keep the gun to your head until you get some results. So the two forces - the temptation for fame and fortune coupled with pressure form the government that wants to show off to other countries will create this situation where individuals will cheat and fake their results.

I don't think that Hwang should not be held responsible -- I believe he will be punished severely for shaming the country -- but I think his case also says something about the whole South Korean culture. Not to be prejudicial but from now on anything that comes out of SK's academia will be taken with a "grain of salt."

High levels of courrption and dishonesty is why I came to this country from the former Soviet Union -- it was possible to live there and even to become very rich but only at the expense of lying, stealing, cheating and bribing. I could and did not want to function in such a society so I came to the U.S. As much as people complain about the government and society here, I think it is still the best one that exists as far as a collective sense of honesty and accountability goes.

Re:Why?

[bw_bur]

Maybe he believed that he could do it, but that things were taking too long. I think that this is when the temptation to fake results arises: when you're "certain" that the experiment can be done, and equally sure that you will be able to do it, but things aren't moving fast enough and you think that someone else might beat you to it.

A serious problem, even a fundamental flaw can seem to be nothing more than an annoying technical hitch -- and the pressure gets to you -- so you fake it.

Re:I love academia

[drgonzo59]

They at least wanted to somehow seem "professional" and to put up the image that "we are serious about this", "we will openly investigate this and punish the responsible", "we are still a very honest country". In other words it is more of a show for the whole world.

Re:Why?

[timeOday]

The reason scientists commit fraud is the're just sure the results will be confirmed by later experiments, and they don't want to get beaten to the punch.

Those of you who code: haven't you ever been tempted to release an untested patch because "hey, it's just a spelling correction. What could go wrong?"

Re:I love academia

[lysergic.acid]

Uh, no. Like many others have stated, Hwang was a lead researcher in his field. His career did not consist of this single study. The panel was formed to review his past work and to determine what was fraudulant, and what was not. As it turned out, not all of it was made-up. They saved a lot of legitimate research that other researchers have worked with Hwang on, which would have otherwise likely been tossed out. This is also important since many other researchers may have based their work on some of his research. Without this panel, a lot of work by other researchers would have been wasted.

Re:honesty and accountability?!?

[drgonzo59]

You extrapolating Dr. Hwang's actions and saying this dishonesty is a trait of Korean culture is at best a logical fallacy

How is that a logical fallacy? My conjecture was that Hwang was caught because he was at the forefront - he became the scapegoat. Then they created this "mock" board to determine if he faked the results after he _admitted_ that he faked the results. If you would have read carefully what I wrote you would have understood that I was not saying "OMG! Koreans are all bad! LOL!!!! WE RULE!!!". I was just saying that (1) I doubt Hwang is the only one that would be dishonest in his situation. I didn't condone what he did but I can see how someone would do what he did because of what would happend in SK academic community. And (2) There are probably other scientists that do or attempt to do the same but we just don't hear anything about.

Is extrapolating Hwang's actions with some knowlege about the academic culture in SK and in other counries really so "outrageous"? You are right that SK deserves a better analysis but I am not publishing an article in NY Times, I just made a subjective comment on Slashdot. So if I had another month, I would have looked at the known statistics of plagiarism and corruption and compared US and SK, but I just posted a comment with an idea I had.

Isn't extrapolationg behaviors what courts do all the time? If a person lies during investigation, then is it un-reasonable to believe that they have something to hide.

Or say you hear that in Russia you can bribe your way out of jails and traffic tickets and you personally know of 100 such cases but you only know of one such case in U.S. isn't it reasonable to say that Russia is more corrupt than U.S. ?

On the final note, have you ever lived under an oppressive government? I doubt it.. So your oppinion on comparing countries is more subjective than that of someone who has.