Testing Drugs on India's Poor 531
theodp writes to tell us Wired is reporting that a lot of medical research firms are using India's poor as a hot test bed. From the article: "The sudden influx of drug companies to India resembles the gold rush frontier, according to Sean Philpott, managing editor of The American Journal of Bioethics. 'Not only are research costs low, but there is a skilled work force to conduct the trials'"
I'm Fine With It (Score:0, Insightful)
Besides, these people don't have much use in society or a future, especially in India's caste society. This is an excellent opportunity for them to contribute something to better mankind and benefit the rest of us. We should be applauding and congratulating them for their sacrifice. We shouldn't try to take this away from them.
Some people will be angry with this, but if not them, then who's going to do this?
And? (Score:1, Insightful)
Ethics (Score:5, Insightful)
I can't tell if he's being serious, but if he truly does have no moral qualms about that last statement, then he frightens me.
No Surprise (Score:5, Insightful)
Generic versions of patented drugs (Score:5, Insightful)
WHy do they want to prevent that? What about in the U.S. where we have things like Walgreen's Wal-tussin to compete with Robitussin (same ingredients, cheaper cost for the consumer)? (same with Sudafed, etc.) Does this fall under the kind of thing WTO wants to stop?
Re:I'm Fine With It (Score:5, Insightful)
Some would say the difference between life as a dahlit and life as a dahlit after being paid for it is most certainly a form of force and coercion.
Besides, these people don't have much use in society or a future, especially in India's caste society. This is an excellent opportunity for them to contribute something to better mankind and benefit the rest of us. We should be applauding and congratulating them for their sacrifice. We shouldn't try to take this away from them.
So you agree- givent he caste system they don't have any real choice at all.
One case where less regulation will help! (Score:4, Insightful)
I'll bet that India and the rest of the "developing" world will be the next scientific powers given their highly educated and motivated workforce, and the fact that they're a little less backward when it comes to science. Example: South Korea is taking on a cloning project while we're still fighting over teaching evolution in school, abortion and stem cell research.
Sometimes it makes me wish we'd let the South win the civil war. They could live in backward redneck-land and the rest of the country could get on with evolving the species.
Re:I'm Fine With It (Score:5, Insightful)
Okay (Score:3, Insightful)
Straight from the movies ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Generic versions of patented drugs (Score:5, Insightful)
Cynical answer: the difference is that the USA doesn't want Indian companies to hurt the sales of US-American companies. If it's two US-American companies fighting, the USA as a whole don't lose anything, but if it's foreign companies...
I think there's some truth in both answers.
Re:outsourcing (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Ethics (Score:4, Insightful)
The sad part is, it doesn't really matter. That's the way things are, when you're poor and sick you're willing to try nearly anything. Even experimental drugs. If for no other reason than you can't afford anything else.
We like to talk about how it sucks our jobs get outsourced to India (and rightfully so, in my eyes), but we have to realize that India is still an incredibly poor country.
Re:And? (Score:1, Insightful)
Well, I guess its OK to lie to people as long as you pay them. Morals and ethics be damned, I want my stock price to soooooaaaaaaarrrrrrr!
Re:Wait (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:I'm Fine With It (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Ethics (Score:3, Insightful)
$$$ greater than Human life? (Score:4, Insightful)
"Third World lives are worth much less than the European lives. That is what colonialism was all about," said Srirupa Prasad, a visiting assistant professor of medical history and bioethics at the University of Wisconsin-Madison.
hits the nail on the head. unfortunatly.
Re:Wait (Score:5, Insightful)
Corporate pigs shipping work out to places that have NO health and safety laws... all in the name of short term shareholder profits. These bastards have NO ethics... how would they feel if they themselves were on the breadline with no job protection and the only work available being dirty, shit jobs exported from countries that should know better
Testing Drugs on America's Poor. Different? (Score:5, Insightful)
For years people right here in the US have been selling body fluids and enrolling in drug trials to make extra cash.
But there's a moral issue when it is done in some other country?
Can we quite patronizing the people? They're poor not retarded.
Re:I'm Fine With It (Score:3, Insightful)
Sure, let the street girls turn the tricks. They are getting paid for it. Otherwise they might end up on welfare and we will have to share the burden of assisting them through taxes.
Re:No Surprise (Score:4, Insightful)
IT was not a fertility treatment... it was prescribed to reduce morning sickness...
NOT for me... my brother is one of the victims
The perils of genetic variations (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:One case where less regulation will help! (Score:3, Insightful)
Amazing...
I would have thought that the penchant of people in the USA to question the morality or ethical repercussions of a scientific pursuit show maturity and a lack of willingness to sacrifice our humanity for some megalomaniacal pursuit of "progress".
I'm sure we can all think of something we wish we could un-invent (weaponized atomic energy, nerve gas, communism). Science is a wonderful thing, but in order to benefit from it we need ethics and morality to direct our pursuits. If all we do is come up with better ways to kill each other and perpetuate the devaluation of human life we have accomplished nothing of value.
Somehow I think if they were grabbing homeless people off the streets of your town and testing drugs on them without regulatory protections (which is what this amounts to...) that you would sing a different tune. Especially if you were one of those people.
(banned and new) Drugs, banned pesticides, etc (Score:2, Insightful)
I have been to India on several occasions and find it irresponsible of not only companies but also other countries to sell banned drugs, pesticides and a wrath of other 'goodies' in India. I saw first hand pesticides that are banned in North America being used openly, old drugs, and of course questionable mixtures of leaded gasoline, kerosene, and others thereby creating a lot of pollution.
Given that India is considered to be a developing nation, it is irresponsible of the 'west' to dump their banned substances there and in other countries. This creates new caste system of sorts - Westerners get good, safe chemicals, while the rest goes 'elsewhere' - thereby needlessly affecting millions of people.
Unfortunately, this issue is not headline news and does not get the attention it deserves.
Re:I'm Fine With It (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Okay (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Wait (Score:3, Insightful)
sri
Re:Wait (Score:4, Insightful)
Yeah, you're right. Without question. But someone's gotta be the first to test a drug. The real problem here is that the drug companies are trying to act without the restrictions of the US. Were they operating under the same restrictions over there, then I really wouldn't have much of a problem here at all, since someone, somewhere, has to be the first.
The US/FDA COULD refuse to accept or deny the right to sale to any drug that is tested without adhering to the same restrictions/rules that they would have to in the US. Test subjects would still be cheaper, but at least there would be incentive for treating these people decently.
Re:WWII (Score:4, Insightful)
are a result of the many barbaric experiments done by Nazi scientists
on their prisoners back in WWII.
I think this is not exactly the case. More to the tune of "...a lot of the medical advancements we enjoyed in the 50s and 60s..."
So are the insights they gained from their immoral experiements bad enough that we shouldnt use it on moral grounds?
Back then, the origin of the studies was just conveniently forgotten. Unlike Dr. Mengele [wikipedia.org], his boss (Adolf Butenandt) managed to continue his career in post-war Germany - mainly by vigorously destroying every evidence of his deeds. Mengele fled to South America but his research was (in parts) considered the de-facto standard until the early sixties - he himself being a good scape-goat, too, taking most of the guilt of the rest of the staff with him.
The reason, the concentration-camps were so attractive to all kinds of bio-scientist at that time were really two-fold:
- total lack of regulations
- the possibility to generate an mind-staggering amount of samples in a very short time
(previous studies on twins, one of Dr. Mengele's favorite projects, had taken years and were taken on a much smaller sample)I must assume, it's the same in India today, again: lot's of samples, little paper-work. If corporations don't apply any ethics, things will run out of control, again. It may even run out of control with more regulation - after all, who can counter the killer-argument of "but it may cure xyz-cancer or AIDS".
In the current climate of "sacrifice some lives for many/some freedoms for the big-picture", it's only a small step.
Don't rely on the assumption that scientists will just do "the right thing" - more often than not, the prospect of being able to "advance science" will just open new abysses, which later generations will look down with disgust and horror.
cheers,
Rainer
Re:I'm Fine With It (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:No, and no. (Score:1, Insightful)
Most of PeTA, including their founder, ARE nutjobs hippies and hate humans.
Re:Wait (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Make the FDA a "Informational" only (Score:3, Insightful)
Now to address the thread. I'm not Indian, but I have lived in India as well as various places in Africa. The problem with this type of drug testing really has nothing to do with coercion or the inability to give informed consent. It really has to do with oversight and regulation. In both Africa and South Asia most folks just don't trust government officials to act in the best interest of the populace. This allows unscrupulous researchers to act unscrupulously knowing the most of their subjects won't go to local officials even if something goes terribly wrong. Meanwhile, those appointed to assure the safety of the process feel left out of the loop and are then quick to take some extra perks since they, accurately, see themselves as mostly irrelevant anyway. This sets up a vicious cycle which leads to more poor research and exploitation. But don't ever equate poor and uneducated with naive and gullible. I accept as a truism that if given accurate information individual will make the best decision for themselves. They will not "try the pharmacological equivalent of rat poison."
Re:Wait (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Wait (Score:3, Insightful)
And why does everybody always assume that poverty equals stupidity?
For all we know, the vast majority of these test subjects are thinking, "sure, it's a sketchy deal, but in this cruel world a man's gotta make tough choices sometimes. Me? I'm happy to be able to sacrifice my body for the sake of my family's wellbeing. If this were the Stone Age, I wouldn't even have this opportunity."
It's not like the article gives us any indication that they're not thinking this. In fact, the author seems to be stuck somewhere between "making up shit to worry about" and "bothering to find out what the situation actually is". This merits serious consideration how?
Re:I'm Fine With It (Score:3, Insightful)
I've heard a similar argument applied to the slave trade...
These people are not becoming human lab rats for disposible income. They are becoming lab rats to afford the basics in life. There is a difference between giving opportunity and economic slavery.
Economics aside these people should be warned and made understanding of the dangers. Which according to the article they are not.
Re:Wait (Score:3, Insightful)
Fool. The issue at hand here is that these people are poor and vulnerable. Testing drugs on them is abusive. Maybe you failed to pick up the point that this is exploitation, and without the dehabilitating poverty, these Indians would never consider being part of the research program.
The moral here, as I saw very well illustrated in another
"If you don't give a fuck when it's not your ass on the line, don't except anyone else to give a fuck when it is"
The lesson here:
You're a selfish fuck, who doesn't give a damn about anyone except yourself.
Re:Wait (Score:2, Insightful)
Alternate Spin: If you could not feed your family or yourself, and you could not find work, would you not want any opportunity you could get? I would. I'd take whatever employment could be found, because it would mean food on the table. I'd also be pretty mad at people like you, who would prefer that I did not have that opportunity.
Re:Wait (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:So we have our own race of UnderMenschen to use (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:I'm Fine With It (Score:2, Insightful)
Besides, these people don't have much use in society or a future, especially in India's caste society. This is an excellent opportunity for them to contribute something to better mankind and benefit the rest of us.
Some people will be angry with this, but if not them, then who's going to do this?
Hmmm..let's see. Hope you lose your house, your job, all your money. Then I'll pay you pennies to be a human guinea pig. And by your understanding, you'll be happy to take the job and consider that as your contribution to the society?
Poor (no matter where they are from/what color their skin is) who become human guinea pig, are forced into this because of the financial disparity. They don't see this as their "use to the society". And worse still, it hurts me if the rest think of it as their "use to the society". I rather feel ashamed of our incapabity to help them in the first place.
And another thing, by your philosophy, "worth of life/health" == bank balance.
Hey, Bill Gates wants to buy your kidneys. A billion dollars should be more than your life's worth. Your family for one should be happy to sell you.
Don't you see that your philosophy justifies buying/selling of human organs, prostitution etc in one go.
Actually, you missed another opportunity. So many people in south asia lost their home/belongings during the tsunami. You should have paid them their life's worth and used them for experiments.
Re:No, and no. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:I'm Fine With It (Score:2, Insightful)
Down the slippery slope we go! (Score:4, Insightful)
Ethics matter; ethics help assure good science.
There's definitely an advantage to conducting your human trials in places where people aren't breathing down your neck.
Ever frakkin' wonder why the FDA dares to breath down peoples necks? Do you think that people should be informed of the risks of the test; the potential for long term harm. Do you want pharmaceutical companies to document the positive and the adverse reactions of medical testing?
Thank God we've found poor, uneducated people living in a country with a rampant caste system - where the poor are of even less spiritual value than the elite! Testing can proceed apace. And don't worry, the ends do justify the means.
Gee, the South Koreans can have cloning by having one of their lab assistants donate her eggs - amongst numerous other problems with that particular series of experiments.
The _REAL_ Reason is not cost ... (Score:2, Insightful)
Personally I cannot blame American companies for doing something like this - after all, they are running a business. It is really the Indian Government's reponsibility to ensure high standards and proper accountability for drug testing. But then, a small "donation" of a few thousand dollars is often enough to buy the silence of most govt. officials.
Re:Pff.. (Score:4, Insightful)
This need not even be a Bad Thing. The janitor in the school where I work participates in medical studies three or four times a year (as much as he is allowed to) and he makes more money than I do. He doesn't suffer a bit from it and if I had more spare time I would consider joining him. Clinical studies are not necessarily dangerous. Sometimes they just want to see if a medicine has side effects, makes you sleepy or so. I don't think they want to find out the mortality rate.
Re:The _REAL_ Reason is not cost ... (Score:1, Insightful)
Yes you can. Corporations should not be granted carte blanche just because they are trying to make a buck. In fact, we have all sorts of laws in America to prevent companies from doing unethical things.
Re:Wait (Score:4, Insightful)
However, when a corporation decides to "shop around" and find the cheapest solution to their problem, I don't see how that's not just a large-scale version of when I go on Froogle to find the cheapest place to get my new DVD burner.
This whole scenario plays into what economists call "factor price equalization". The idea goes something like this: Let's say you're in the business of manufacturing something (like a car engine or whatnot). You've got all of your manufacturing pieces in place except for one: you need ten thousand washers placed on ten thousand bolts. For doing this job, "Joe American" in Detroit wants $10/hr, plus medical, dental, and vision coverage... and 2 weeks per year paid vacation. Meanwhile, Shankar in India will do the same job for $4/day and requires none of the other benefits.
Now, if "Joe American" were able to put the washer on the bolt with an expertise, precision, and efficiency that was simply unmatched by Shankar, then there might be a reason to pay him the 20x as much. However, even if there was such a disparity in skill, it would also have to be worth it to you to have the washers put on the bolts with that extra skill.
Alas, in reality, there is no skill disparity when it comes to tasks as simple as this, so the American worker can offer no advantage to the employer to justify his high price. The "equalization" part of Factor-Price Equalization theory is the observation that, eventually, the prices (in wages and benefits) charged by Joe American and Shankar will equalize. Eventually, increasing competition for Indian labor will drive their price up, while Joe American will finally come to the realization that simply having been born in the USA doesn't make up for the fact that he never finished high-school and he'll face the fact that the value of his labor is much lower than what he was, up until now, able to get away with.
The lesson is clear: If you want to be well-compensated for your work, you need to be able to do something that... A) few other people can do (ie, low supply), and B) many people want/need done (ie, high demand). This lesson isn't new. It's just that we're now starting to see a decrease in people being able to get away with not heeding it.
Now, like I said at the outset, the fact that there exist such squalid conditions in India (and countless other parts of the world) might qualify as a travesty (and how is employing these people doing anything but working towards eliminating that?), but... as has been pointed out here numerous times... the hundreds of workers showing up every day don't consider themselves to be exploited. They call it opportunity.
Re:Wait (Score:2, Insightful)
It certainly appears to me from the above quote that "Mobeen" considers himself and his coworkers exploited in this situation.
Re:Wait (Score:5, Insightful)
Try again. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Wait (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Wait (Score:1, Insightful)
No, there is not much of a chance for you. At the earliest, a cure might be available in twenty years. You'll no longer be young, and you'll also likely not be wealthy enough to afford it. Knowing the drug industry, it won't be a cure, anyway. It will be a treatment that requires ongoing, expensive medication. Only the very wealthy will have access.
If the test subjects are well informed, there is nothing morally wrong with this.
Do you ever bother to consider what you're saying before you spew forth your ignorance? There is something morally wrong with exploiting the needy for the benefit of the wealthy. That you cannot see this speaks volumes about your lack of character.
Re:Wait (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:And today's Unintentional Iron award goes to... (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Stop hating Indians and blams the real culprits (Score:3, Insightful)
This is perhaps because Americans are far more aggressive as a people while Indians tend to be either passive or indifferent.
Neither of these are positive attributes. This is reflected even at a micro scale if you look at smaller communities of Indians. The average Indian is very indifferent to everything around him and is intent only on getting his selfish needs met. We can see this indifferent attitude in the way Indians treat the poor, the disabled, women's issues, crime against children, child labour, civic resposibilities, the wide scale corruption etc.
If someone has an accident on the road in India and requires immediate medical attention to save their lives, it is likely that most Indians will not do anything and just walk on by because we don't want the inconvenience of having to spend an hour or so answering questions from the cops if they need any clarifications. I have witnessed this callousness first-hand and when I helped the injured person, I was actually told by others not to bother.
Also, I am sick and tired of this stupid victim complex many Indians have where they feel that we deserve everything because we had the British who ruled us for a couple of centuries. One of the reasons we were ruled by so few Britishers is because of the corrupt and callous nature of the Indian ruling class which basically sold out Indians to the British. Unfortunately this self-serving, disgusting attitudes have still not gone away.
So before we start throwing stones at anyone, lets first look at our glass house.
Re:What do they want? (Score:3, Insightful)