Mice Created With Human Brain Cells

pin_gween writes "Scientists have added 100,000 human brain cells to mice in an effort to create realistic models of disorders like Parkinson's Disease. Although mice are 97.5 percent genetically identical to humans and it sounds like a large number, 100,000 only represents 0.1% of the number of cells in mice brains. FTA: 'It's true that there is a huge amount of similarity, but the differences are huge,' Snyder said. 'You will never ever have a little human trapped inside a mouse or monkey's body. [...] Researchers are nevertheless beginning to bump up against what bioethicists call the "yuck factor." 'The worry is if you humanize them too much you cross certain boundaries,' said David Magnus, director of the Stanford Medical Center for Biomedical Ethics. 'But I don't think this research comes even close to that.'"

Re:well i think

[ozmanjusri]

but one day it will be too far and we won't have even realised

Then why will it have been too far?

The conscious neuron?

[jtangen]

Remind me what's so unique about human neurons that cause people to fear that mice will somehow become conscious, thinking organisms?

brain simulation?

[Anonymous Coward]

If 100.000 brain cells is 0.1% then a mouse has 100.000.000 brain cells. How many bytes does it take to describe a brain cell? How many connections are there from a single brain cell to other brain cells? Say it takes 4 bytes to address the connections. Then 10 connections per cell make 4GByte in total. Who is going to write the software to simulate a mouse?

Re:well i think

[PakProtector]

"'The worry is if you humanize them too much you cross certain boundaries,' said David Magnus, director of the Stanford Medical Center for Biomedical Ethics. 'But I don't think this research comes even close to that.'"

Yes, certain boundaries. F#%$# you. Using other animals to experiences already is "certain boundaries".

At least, they wont be too "human" and so, they will not destroy and kill other species only for fun. This right, we cannot give to any other animal, because we can easily lost our "superiority".

Woah, there! Easy now, fellah! We've already lost that one to Chimps, at the very least, who have been seen to actively seek out and kill Chimps that don't belong to their own group, going so far as, when finding a lone 'other,' to head back, round up a posse, and then go 'curb stomp' their 'ass.' Chimps will also kill babies of any female they meet that they have not had sex with. Hence Chimp promiscuity.

And dolphins also commit gang-rape.

We humans aren't so special after all.

Re:97.5% genetically identical - ah yes, but

[kfg]

Compare a brick house to a brick factory building.

Mice and men are made of the same bricks, assembled in the same manner, ending with much the same results, which is why they can use mice for medical research in the first place. Above poster has it right, God is in the details, but the details are really very, very tiny. Sometimes those tiny differences are critical, but it doesn't make them any less tiny.

I'm sorry if it insults your sense of humanity to be compared to a mouse, but I don't exactly see the point of gaining your "stature" by denigrating mice either.

You're "smarter" than a mouse, of course, but being "smarter" isn't even of any particular value if you don't act smarter, and the mouse can do something you likely can't. . .

Take care of itself.

KFG

Re:97.5% genetically identical

[oudzeeman]

dna that encodes protien synthesis is largely the same, although obviously arranged differently in the chromosomes. that 97.5 match figure is spread all through the genome - a gene that encodes the same thing in mice and man could be located at entirely different positions.

The company I work for http://www.jax.org/ [jax.org] maintains over 2,000 straings of laboratory mice for sale to other research institutions (we do genetics research and are designated a national cancer center, the 69 million dollar a year mouse business all started by selling surplus mice to other researchers, now it's a large part of the company and there has been discussion about spinning it off as a for-profit subsidiary. Right now, since all the surplus funds from the mouse business go directly towards supporting the research, we enjoy a tax-free status). We have models for diabetes, glaucoma, aids, certain cancers, adult onset obesity, etc. In experiments that involve drug testing, the only real difference (after you factor in mass differences) between mice and humans is how fast the mice metabolize the drugs.

Mouse Brain Library

[tomalpha]

Anybody reckon they can tell the difference between a human brain and a mouse brain? Check out the Mouse Brain Library [mbl.org] and the Human Brain Library [harvard.edu]. There are a couple of obvious difference in shape, but the individual structures are remarkably similar.

Re:brain simulation?

[penguinoid]

Neurons have several thousand connections, not "about 10". Furthermore, these connections are analog (have a range of strengths), say 1 byte to address the strenghts. Given about 100,000,000 brain cells, you would need almost 30 bits per connection as well, but call it 3 bytes. At 1000 connections, you need 4 kb per neuron, or 400 Gb of memory for 1 rat brain. Barely doable, but the processor power to handle all of that will not be easy to find...

Re:"Boundaries"

[ari_j]

Yes, we should definitely either treat people as indistinct from animals [wikipedia.org] or animals as people [wikipedia.org].

Anthropocentrism is not bullshit. It's probably a necessary component to human society, and other than extremely arrogant forms of it (such as global warming as being both human-caused and within the grasp of human control to stop) it is a healthy mindset for humans to have.

Animal studies

[idhindsight]

are innefective. Animals are simply too different from humans. Placing human brain cells in them to make them more similar is like putting a hat on them and saying "Look, they're little cowboys!"

Mice don't exist so that we can use them as disposable commodities.

Re:so far...

[dosquatch]

You forgot that they can also glow in the dark
http://digg.com/science/Genetically_Enhanced_Glowi ng_Mice [digg.com]

Re:Keeping a tally...

[hesiod]

> > We're getting pretty close to "the mice of NIMH".
> Nickel Metal Hyride Mice?

I was wondering about that myself (mice-elf?). I wonder how much energy a NiMH mouse can store, and do you have to fully discharge it on a wheel before reusing it?

Re:what are we going to do tonight brain...

[EtherealStrife]

Actually, there is great potential in this research. In parts of the world where calcium is scarce, something like 1 in 5 people develop Parkinson's or Lou Gehrig's disease. Over the generations, some of these people have developed immunities (or atleast, high tolerances), and now suffer little to no brain damage even while being "carriers". If I had Parkinson's disease I sure as hell wouldn't think twice over a few hundred / thousand rats dying for me.

Re:well i think

[TastyCakes]

You guys are using twisted logic. This guy was responding to this:
"At least, they wont be too "human" and so, they will not destroy and kill other species only for fun. This right, we cannot give to any other animal, because we can easily lost our "superiority"."
That's the guy who thinks animals are morally superior because they "don't kill others for fun". Note that he's both totally wrong and a tree hugger.