Report Claims Men More Intelligent Than Women 1523
Jeremy Dean writes "In controversial research reported all over the place, Richard Lynn, the emeritus professor of psychology at Ulster University claims that, on average, men are more intelligent than women. Let battle commence!
As the research is not yet published there's nothing more to go on than the press reports. The co-author of the study, Dr Irwing, a senior lecturer in organisational psychology at Manchester University, is apologetic about the findings.
In the BBC News report he states that the paper will go on to argue that despite their disadvantage in IQ, there is evidence that women utilise their (lesser!) talents better than men. This simply begs the question of what use IQ tests are if they don't predict anything in the real world."
Obviously, we *are* more intelligent (Score:5, Insightful)
Now if we could just find a way to explain this to the ladies, there'd be much less unhappiness in this world.
Battle? (Score:5, Insightful)
How can this be controversial? (Score:4, Insightful)
I hate how people get all pissed off and offended by "controversial" studies like this. If the study was done correctly, then there's really nothing you can do except shutup and live with it or do your own study that proves it wrong.
If the study was done correctly, then getting offended by the results is like getting offended when somebody says "The sky is blue." You just look like an idiot, no matter what gender you are.
Even If True (Score:3, Insightful)
Role of women in society. (Score:5, Insightful)
Society tells women to be stupid and popular and then asks itself why women, on average, seem less inteligent than men.
Re:Mod parent (Score:3, Insightful)
With nothing to go on (Score:5, Insightful)
I would be willing to bet that if a woman were to come up with an IQ test that women would do better at it than men.
Being smart doesn't make you better at anything other than being smart. If you can add two 8 digit numbers in your head then great. If you can lift a car over your head, good for you. If you can stomach the sight of blood enough to become a doctor, guess what... good for you.
Women, men, children, black, white, grey, whatever.... who you are is not defined by what you can do better than others. Nobody is the best at everything. Some people throw great parties or know how to make others laugh and feel better about themselves. If that is their greatest skill then so be it. Everyone should be happy with themselves or at least be given sufficient opportunity to be happy with themselves.
If your only way to be happy about yourself is to be better at something than others, find a new hobby.
Re:Uh oh! (Score:4, Insightful)
(Will this post survive the political-correctness police? Lets watch...)
Comment removed (Score:2, Insightful)
why? (Score:2, Insightful)
I'm not sparking a debate here, but you guys need to think for a second. You haven't been denied the right to vote, discriminated at the workplace, took lesser wages, get constanly objectified... all because you're a chick.
I have tons of guy friends (more than girls, believe it or not!) who take a little educating to understand why we're so different. I say you all need a little time with an atypical female
We're not all crazy bitches.
Re:Mod parent (Score:2, Insightful)
IQ versus Bogosity (Score:4, Insightful)
There is so much confusion about the notions of intelligence, cleverness, wisdom, creativity, etc., etc. that belief in the signficance of IQ testing only proves someone to be an elitist fool--usually because that person "does well" on certain tests.
By the way, I almost always score in the top 1% on every standardized written test, including IQ tests. The only exception I can recall was the LSAT, where I only scored in the top 10%. However, I'm not foolish enough to think those tests indicate anything of significance.
Intresting replies (Score:3, Insightful)
One women was openly offended. Almost all of then seemed to be offended. Not a single women accepted the study.
Some men belived the study and were delited about its results. Most of the men didn't belive the study.
Some replies didn't belive the study because of their "personal experience". Few women belive in
somekind of conspiracy. One male doesn't seem to belive it science. Also few men point out the fact that men tend to have higher variance in IQ tests. They seem to suspect that the results were in fact measuring this.
Not a single person considered to read the study before commenting on it. Not even Maria from Sheffield who was "suprised that a academic journal is even considering this publication".
I think that this Maria is not alone and we hear lots of similar comments. And they are listened. Welcome to an age where academic journals screen articles based on the results not the methodology.
No good for proper English :-( (Score:3, Insightful)
God do I hate that misuse.
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beg_the_question [wikipedia.org]:
"Begging the question is the term for a type of fallacy occuring in deductive reasoning in which the proposition to be proved is assumed implicitly or explicitly in one of the premises"
Re:EQ (emotional intelligence) (Score:5, Insightful)
Nobody complains that women and asian people are smaller on average then men and african people, but when it comes to IQ, seems every group on average should get the same average (men, women, caucasian, black, rich, poor, Britney Spears fans, music lovers, and so on). Absurd.
Why should these quotient measurements give equal score to all sides? Why would nature divide intelligence equally between gender and races?
All Political Correct crap to me.
Why is measuring intelligence taboo? (Score:4, Insightful)
Perhaps that's because correlating these measurements with any kind of social categorization, whether it be race, gender, ethnicity, religion, sexual preference, eye color, etc ignites a socially unacceptable controversy. If these correlations are taken seriously, it often leads to attempts at eugenics and strengthens discrimination against the group that is deemed "less intelligent". These correlations are not false in that they violate generally accepted statistical practices, it's just that we feel that we're better off not knowing and entertaining the illusion that all are roughly equal.
If our modern atheist society has a religion which facilitates social cohesion than this is probably part of it: That we're all of equal ability and if we just work at it anyone has the same chance of acheiving a goal as anyone else. Intelligence correlations contradict this idea directly and are therefore considered heresy and hence are taboo.
Submitter's misuse of "Beg the question" (Score:2, Insightful)
Beg the question:
An argument that improperly assumes as true the very point the speaker is trying to argue for is said in formal logic to "beg the question." Here is an example of a question-begging argument: "This painting is trash because it is obviously worthless." The speaker is simply asserting the worthlessness of the work, not presenting any evidence to demonstrate that this is in fact the case. Since we never use "begs" with this odd meaning ("to improperly take for granted") in any other phrase, many people mistakenly suppose the phrase implies something quite different: that the argument demands that a question about it be asked--raises the question. If you're not comfortable with formal terms of logic, it's best to stay away from this phrase, or risk embarrassing yourself.
link [wsu.edu]
Re:EQ (emotional intelligence) (Score:4, Insightful)
Balancing logic and emotion means to balance the man with the beast.
Re:why? (Score:2, Insightful)
I also think that people are constantly doing their best to come up with as many differences as possible between men and women, and I'm not talking about obvious differences such as strength or biology. Men like cars and they always play golf and drink beer. Women are always irrational and do nothing but shop for clothes. Men and women can't talk, they're from different planets! Blah blah fucking blah. I blame popular culture.
Yes and no (Score:3, Insightful)
That said, 'intelligence' is extremely tricky to define, composed of dozens of different dimensions. It's possible that women do better at certain areas than men, and vice versa.
This also is an average. It doesn't mean that every woman is inferior to every man, as some people will assume this means.
Re:why? (Score:5, Insightful)
Unless I was, uh, not white.
Incidentally, I get treated like SHIT compared to women, simply because I am, in a word, unattractive.
There's overwhelming evidence in favor of this con (Score:2, Insightful)
Narrower bell curve? (Score:2, Insightful)
This may explain why there are less female "super scientists", but also less females in jail.
Historically, male roles tended to be more varied per individual, and thus natural selection has given males a wider variation of abilities to fit into different roles more easily. This is not saying that each male has wider abilities, but rather that males differ more. However, women's roles were pretty much to take care of the children and the sick (for good or bad). Thus, their brains are more geared toward a smaller range of roles. One male may specialize in hunting, another in herbs, and yet another in memorizing religious chants because of natural affinity to such.
Think of it this way. Suppose our brains had 3 lobes, A, B, and C, in it that specialized in different things. In women, the *variation* between the lobes compared with other women would be smaller. Really large or small lobes of any of the letters would be rarer in women. However, some males would have giant lobe C's and tiny lobe A's, or giant lobe B's and smaller lobes A and C. (The total volume of all three lobes would be about the same.)
Re:why? (Score:5, Insightful)
Nope. And you have?
Re:Uh oh! (Score:5, Insightful)
Look, men are groomed from childhood to be smart, be athletic, make money, get a hot girlfriend or wife and work for a living their entire life.
Women are groomed to be cute, pretty and attract a rich, athletic, successful, smart man.
Women have as much potential as men. It's just a matter of where we, as a society, influence them to go. Girls are never praised for being so smart, but you're praised for being so cute and adorable the day you're born, then hot and sexy the rest of your life after some teen-ish age.
Re:Role of women in society. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:IQ versus Bogosity (Score:3, Insightful)
You said yourself how they're significant:
What the tests actually measure is a kind of similarity metric between the testees and the authors' of the test.
In this regard, tests like the GRE give you very significant information. They answer the question "Do you fit in?"
We can rightly call the study "garbage" that uses a similarity metric like IQ to measure intelligence. Dismissing all standardized testing, as you already (inadvertently) showed, isn't so smart.
stupid debate (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:why? (Score:2, Insightful)
Damn, you're old, have you contacted the guiness book people?
You haven't been denied the right to vote, discriminated at the workplace, took lesser wages, get constanly objectified
Neither have you, unless as implied above, you're old as hell.
Furthermore, your assumption is racist. Blacks have had it worse off than women historically. So if you want to talk about privilege, consider what black MALES had to go through.
We're not all crazy bitches.
Does thinking that you're world-record-setting-old qualify is crazy? What about reacting emotionally to a study without reading what its about?
Re:Oh boy... (Score:3, Insightful)
Meanwhile, J.K. Rowling is holed up in her thousand acre castle trying to decide whether to buy and sell the queen.
IQ TESTS - history and clarification (Score:2, Insightful)
Secondly, Those who know the history of IQ tests will give this study much less credibility. Allow me to inform. The first IQ tests showed that women were smarter than men, and whites were smarter than blacks. The former was taken to be an error in the testing, so the questions were adjusted (by adding and removing test elements that tested different abilities) until men and women scored equally. The latter was taken as evidence of racial superiority.
I hate having to draw obvious conclusions but I will do so anyways in case you are tired while reading this -the results of an IQ test do not actually correspond to an actual characteristic or trait of an individual, and should not be taken as seriously as they are.
Other IQ tests could just as easily produce the opposite result as this study (as they indeed did originally) simply by switching around the scoring of a few questions. I think it is terribly irresponsible of the researchers to make statements such as they are without providing a thorough explanation of what it is the tests are actually measuring, because it promotes a sexist attitude (ie its okay that men are smarter, its just genetics!)
This study demonstrates nothing more than how sexism still thrives among the intellectuals of today, in their willingness to draw and promote such conclusions in the face of valid alternatives.
Re:Prevent Misinformation: Mod Parent UP (Score:3, Insightful)
All it says is people with high IQs do better by some chosen metric(s), in general, than people with low IQs - by design. The test itself may have value in that somehow it is measuring existing thought process. I cannot see how it measures potential (unless it is proven that ones thought processes are locked and unchanging, a theory I would resist without brutal proof).
How is that really useful then? It can't predict the future of an individual. It may or may not even be permanent. It just somehow has a correlation with success. I can see it has value to people trying to understand the brain, I can't see that it has social value, nor that it should be thrown about with such recklessness.
Why no "basketball" or "breakdancing" intelligence (Score:3, Insightful)
hmmm (Score:5, Insightful)
NOTE: I'm ripping on the car insurance, not advocating paying women less. It's all foolishness.
Erm (Score:3, Insightful)
Depending on my mood, I find it annoying or amusing that people would be up in arms for saying that men are more intelligent, but nobody thinks twice when someone says that women are more intuitive. If these recent studies and conventional wisdom are to be believed, then both statements are equally correct.
Re:Oh boy... (Score:1, Insightful)
Meanwhile, J.K. Rowling is holed up in her thousand acre castle trying to decide whether to buy and sell the queen.
Oh well done, you've pointed out a single counterexample to a generalisation. Now go down to your local bookshop and find out which authors sell in quantity and you'll find that there are a lot more men in the list.
The real issue is what if the opposite where true? (Score:3, Insightful)
So? (Score:4, Insightful)
Whatever, the point is you judge the paper based on it's own merits. You do not read the brief conclusion in the abstract and start decrying it just because you don't like what it says. The truth is not always what you want ot hear and what you agree with, so just because you disagree doesn't make it wrong.
You yourself are guilty of this, you immediatly launched an ad homenim attack. You claim this guy is a proponent of Eugenics, and infer that therefore his paper is worthless. Further you use a straw man in saying that he favours shutting down ideas he disagrees with. Both of these presented with no proof.
Now frankly, I don't know if these are true, and I'm not going to take the time to research it, because I just don't care. The point is simple: IS the paper good research? I won't know until I've read it, so I'm certianly not going to start villifying it. Who cares who the author is? Science is not a popularity contest, it's not a democracy. It's a way of knowing about the universe. Thus you judge scientific research based on it's own merits, is the research sound or not.
Re:Obviously, we *are* more intelligent (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Old Psych Joke (Score:1, Insightful)
First, although you're sort of correct in noting that psychologists made "this construct they term intelligence quotient," it's not just getting "reliability across a number of tests, plus a few more things." Measures of intelligence are considered measures of intelligence partially because they all correlate with one another. It's not just that the tests are reliable, it's that the test scores all correlate in a predictable pattern that suggests an underlying ability structure.
Second, you are also correct in noting that "in effect, you see if anything else correlates with Intelligence." However, more specifically, it's important to show that intelligence is generally correlated with things that you'd predict it would be correlated with (e.g., GPA, neurodegenerative disease), and not correlated with things you'd predict it wouldn't be correlated with.
Finally, you're also true that presuming that intelligence "means anything other than what it correlates with
The point I'd like to add to what you're saying--and others have said it--is that intelligence tests do measure something that is closely related to what we think it measures, and that something is very important, empirically speaking, in predicting a large number of significant biological and behavioral phenomena. So, even if this study turns out to be a bunch of hogwash, it doesn't necessarily mean that intelligence testing per se is fundamentally flawed. There are flaws, to be sure (e.g., most tests only measure average individuals very well, there is some bias for some purposes), but those flaws are not fundamental flaws.
Re:Uh oh! (Score:2, Insightful)
FWIW (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:EQ (emotional intelligence) (Score:3, Insightful)
EQ "tests" were validated with samples that are NOT available to scientific scrutiny. The samples are property of a company (forgot the name), and are not being released on basis of intellectual property. All of you people, who read that EQ tests are valid and read the validation scores - must take them as they are - you will not be able to check them personally.
Replication studies have been made, and not a few of them:- none - NONE - have been succesful. Yet people still believe this crap.
EQ is defined by the psychologists who use this concept as the ABILITY to understand other's reactions and actions, act upon them in accordance. They say this ability is LEARNED: (otherwise they wouldn't make a penny). Ok, so we now take the 10th grade psychology book and look at keywords as ability, learning and look, we find the term: SKILL not EQ! We already have a word for this! EQ is being sold as THE next best thing in seminars and coaching workshops because they 'predict' success. Not true, but this is not what i can say about IQ: though definitions may differ - the concept remains and IQ is the predictor for things such as (and these are real): School success, a big part of work performance and a bunch of other stuff. OK; rant off!!!
Re:Obviously, we *are* more intelligent (Score:5, Insightful)
At the risk of ruining the joke... there is something to this. Not the ability to literally read minds, but the ability to detect and interpret the subtle non-verbal cues people display that can provide information regarding their mental and emotional state -- for example, a repositioning of the posture of the shoulders, or a slight change in breathing pattern, a miniscule change in facial coloring, or even possibly a change in pheromone composition. I suspect that when women get frustrated with men for "just not knowing" things, it is because they (the women) are used to being easily able to pick up these subtle hints themselves at a subconscious level, and therefore they take having that skill for granted and expect that everyone should be able to do it.
Many men, on the other hand, prefer explicit/formal communication and either dismiss these non-verbal cues as unimportant, or (just as likely) are unable to reliably detect them at all. This is especially the case among the borderline-Aspberger's-Syndrome types that like to frequent Slashdot (you all know who you are
Re:Obviously, we *are* more intelligent (Score:3, Insightful)
Or, just maybe it's because women are generally better at "reading" people from expressions than males, and assume they're just as skilled on it. I doubt they're expecting paranormal mind reading, but reading a person without conversation nevertheless.
Re:Mod parent (Score:5, Insightful)
I base this on a couple of things you wrote.
What a clear example of the harm of using non-scholarly sourcing (for the record, I love Wikipedia for getting a general idea of a topic, but I would never use it as an authoritative source on a complicated topic such as this one).
Even worse than these flaws, though, is your conclusion that "there may be some truth to it."
The only reason you might consider this harmful is if you already believe what the source suggests is false. It's unlikely that you would claim that that there was much harm in believing a non-scholarly source if what that source was claiming what you believed already to be true.
I also said that there may be something to it. And there might. There is no evidence that you've given that rules it out. If anything, you're the one implying the much stronger claim that there is no relationship.
How can you make such a strong claim? The only thing that might engender that level of confidence in you without strong evidence is ideological, not scientific, thinking.
If you think you've got evidence that rules out a connection between race and intelligence then let's have it. Until then you can keep your sense of moral superiority to yourself. I'm not interested in what you think should be true or comforting.
Re:Uh oh! (Score:1, Insightful)
The fact of the matter is that most successful men want a hot, attentive young wife. if I'm making $500k/yr, I probably don't care if you have a PhD and make $100k/yr yourself. I'm probably more interested in whether you will be good at raising children, be good in bed, look good, etc.
I'm not saying that's the way it *should* be, but the fact of the matter is that, largely, it IS that way.
Just like how girls don't want sweet nice guys. They want a bad boy or a guy with money.
So it breaks out evenly.
Re:why? (Score:2, Insightful)
I thought so.
No, just because you're not gay doesn't change things - girls have about the same kind of reaction to creepy guys hitting on them as straight guys being hit on, if not worse. At least guys have less worries about rape.
Squirrels are obviously smarter than people. (Score:2, Insightful)
In other pseudo-science news, squirrels are obviously smarter than people. People have to go to work every day. Squirrels take afternoon naps on their favorite tree branches.
People travel on dangerous streets; squirrels travel on low-traffic overhead wires that they had the people install for them. All hail our squirrel overlords!
Re:Reports? (Score:3, Insightful)
--
To make laws that man cannot, and will not obey, serves to bring all law into contempt.
--E.C. Stanton
Re:The good professor (Score:3, Insightful)
I know I should withhold judgement on a scientific study until I've read the methedology and study, but come on - criminal traits genetically inherited? Race-based intelligence studies? This sounds like a classic case of someone who ascribes to genetics what is caused by upbringing and social factors such as education.
I thought we were past all this crap, along with Eugenics [wikipedia.org], Phrenology [wikipedia.org] and other biological determinist [wikipedia.org] pseudoscience.
He will have to come up with some damn good evidence if he wants to convince me of such ideas.
Re:why? (Score:4, Insightful)
I am so tired of hearing that. It didn't take YOU years to get anything. YOU haven't been treated as ANYTHING for centuries. I am willing to bet you haven't been alive for a third of a century, let alone a full century. Last I checked, you had a bunch of rights, as well as laws and government agencencies to protect those rights.
No, but I have been denied due process, discrimated against at work, been DENIED positions, been objectified as a source of income and security, been judged on my appearance... All because I am an intellegent overweight white male who generally makes good money.
To use a favorite phrase of so many women, GET OVER IT.
Re:Apples and Oranges (Score:5, Insightful)
- taking the research to be directed at each woman individually
- suggesting the research and researchers are biased
- behaving as though the difference was much greater than it actually is
- assuming that women are only the victims and never the perpetrators
This scientific study shows there is a difference between the average man and average woman. It says nothing of any two given individuals.A difference of 5 points is small. It is so small that I have no doubts that one's messured IQ would vary by more than that from day to day. Which leads me to ask why there is no margin of error included in the numbers. I would be most interested to see how they arrived at their numbers.
But, I would not say that the researcher or research is biased. With the current state of science, I would not be surprised to find that the methodology was suspect or that the outcome incorrect due solely to poor work.
You state:
Interestingly, you totally ignore the following- In the media, men are portrayed as:
- Incompetent, sloppy, conivings, lazy oafs, especially in "comedies" where they are paired with smart, capable, attractive women.
- Ugly, mean, vicious criminals.
- Poor, abusive, uncaring failures.
- Rich, handsome, successfuly business men
- Rich, powerful, ugly men with trophy wives
- A good portion of the greeting card industry thrives on portaying men in the worst terms. Try a little experiment: Go to a card shop and pick out some of the "humorous" ones involving men and women and reverse the sexes and ask yourself "Would this card be sold like that?"
- In many instances, if a man is accused of a crime, especially a sex crime, the man is automatically considered, and treated, as guilty. In a He said/She said situation, what She said is considered truth. Also, as we have seen recently in my home state of Florida, if a woman has sex with a young teen she is considered "sick" and in need of help, not inprisonment. If a man were to do the same, there would be calls for life sentences, castration, and execution. She is "mentally ill and in need of care" and he is a monster deserving of the worst punishments imaginable.
- Many women's groups lie. My favorite is the statement that spouse abuse complaints and emergency room visits jump drastically on Superbowl Sunday in the US. This has been proven false. It was made up on the spot during a press conference.
- Women are just as shallow as men, but do not own up to it. And, often they are even more mercenary.
Perhaps you are just blind to anything that does not directly effect you.Re:Prevent Misinformation: Mod Parent UP (Score:2, Insightful)
Which one of these four things is least like the other three?
1. Idli
2. Dosa
3. Vada
4. Chappathi
Correct Answer: Chappathi
Because Chappathi is made from Wheat but Idli, Dosa and Vada are made from Rice.
What does an IQ Test measure? Intelligence or is it Knowledge? I would like to ask the same thing about SAT I Tests....
Is there a way to measure Intelligence without measuring Knowledge?
Study worth nothing (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Let me be the 1st (Score:2, Insightful)
Or not.
Re:Obviously, we *are* more intelligent (Score:2, Insightful)
Missunderstanding (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Missunderstanding (Score:5, Insightful)
Why are emotions and logical understanding mutually incompatible? Show me the emotion that doesn't have a logical cause? If I'm angry with someone, I have a reason. If I'm afraid of something, then I have a reason. It is not always wise to act on these feelings straight away but that has little to do with whether I can comprehend them or not.
Girls tend to do better at school (statistically shown many times) than boys because girls tend to study more. But I make the case that study, both through learning from others and from excercising the memory and analytical capabilities of the brain, does increase that hard to define thing called intelligence.
But the most important thing to consider when reading this report is that there are over six billion people on this planet and that's a lot of people to generalize over. I'm not going to dispense with the scientific method just because of the subject matter, but if it were the case that men were more intelligent than women on average, then that statistical difference would have to be enormous to justify taking it into consideration in daily life. And it clearly isn't, or people wouldn't be debating this.
We'll have to wait for the actual paper to be published to see what the basis is, since TFA(s) contain nothing except flamebait. But research into this has been going on for a long time so which has come first? The definition of intelligence and the realization that men fit it best? Or the ever finer analysis of the differences between men and women and the definition of intelligence based on that? Surely the latter should be considered as a factor as by this stage in the game, no scientist designing these tests is entering the field without prior knowledge of these differences.
And does it make a difference to how you evaluate this post if you knew whether I was male or female? Because it shouldn't, but this report implies it should.
Re:Yeah, whatever... (Score:3, Insightful)
Politically Correct != Correct (Score:5, Insightful)
Hypothetically, in our enlightened modern climate of equality and fairness, even if were proven beyond doubt that (for example) men are more intelligent than women, would we accept it or (as most of the comments above, and on the BBC News feedback page) merely reject it out of hand?
Nobody would be up in arms if asian students were proven better at maths, or if gay people made better artists, or if women were proven more intelligent than men.
However, the first suggestion that the perceived majority group (straight white males) might be better than any minority, at anything, threatens us - just listen to the knee-jerk reaction of almost-unanimous disapproval.
The experimental procedure and results haven't been published yet - nobody even knows what the numbers are, how the trial was conducted or even what IQ test(s) were used, and yet here we have people who know nothing but a soundbite about the final conclusion of the study, already feeling justified in ripping it to shreds.
This has none of the justifications of considered intellectual doubt, and all of the hallmarks of instinctive emotional rejection.
Regarding the researcher's other work, does this necessarily prove he's a bigot? Could he (in fact) be merely discovering unexpected and therefore interesting statistical trends?
Racists claim that one race is unilaterally better than another, and this is (rightly) universally recognised as bad. However, wishful-thinking political correctness stipulates there's no difference between any groups of people, and this is clearly bullshit. Adults are stronger than kids. Men are generally stronger than women. Women are generally more empathic than men. And yes, black men on average have bigger (longer but thinner) penises than white men - look up the statistics.
These facts have been statistically proven time and time again, yet because they don't fit with our prevailing ideology we pretend they don't exist. This is no less intellectually dishonest than creationists who selectively ignore evidence that contradicts their position.
If we truly believing in science, mathematics and rationality means sometimes having to confront facts or possibilities that make us uncomfortable. Putting our hands over our ears and singing "Lalalalalala" is just as bad when we do it as when the ID or creationist crew do the same.
Assuming the study's accurate and valid, does this mean that women are stupid? No, it means that the average woman is (almost unmeasurably) less "intelligent" (whatever that means) than the average man. It means that men are more likely to be geniuses, not that women can't be.
Get down off your high-horses, reign in the emotion and behave in the same way we demand of the creationists - rational, sensible, and valuing Correct thoughts over Comfortable ones.
You're even dafter than the other moron (Score:2, Insightful)
The poster you pounded out your inane response to is right: an IQ of 59 is so low that in clinical practice such a person should be barely able to function in society, let alone live an independent life as Equatorial Guineans actually do.
Re:Let me be the 1st (Score:2, Insightful)
During the 60s, IQs amongst well-off white kids in the US went up because of the better post-war diet and economic status.
IQ tests mean nothing except to the stupids who belong to MENSA.
Re:The good professor (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Obviously, we *are* more intelligent (Score:4, Insightful)
Now, this is all anecdotal, but it has been my experience. I would expect that it's the simple fact that most men and women expect the opposite sex to think the same way they do... which they kindof sortof do, but with generally different low-level priorities and therefore different results.
How often do you hear women talking about how their man won't share his feelings? I bet every one of his guy friends understands how he feels without him having to explain it in detail.
IQ Tests Do Not Mean Anything!!! (Score:3, Insightful)
Steven Jay Gould wrote a great deal on the history of various methods of "mental testing" including IQ. These tests have been used to justify slavery, anti-immigration policies, and, yes, treating women as inferiors. Read more in The Mismeasurement of Man. In it, he shows the fallacy of assigning any real world meaning to these tests.
"there is evidence that women utilise their (lesser!) talents better than men."
That is a common cop out to the fact that these results are likely meaningless. It is easy to dismiss any evidence to the contrary to the women-are-inferior hypothesis with such assertions. I would wager this guy "knew" in his mind what he wanted the outcome to be before he starting his study.
Re:Politically Correct != Correct (Score:2, Insightful)
Sure hope that was ment to be ironic, otherwise I wonder what planet your posting from.
Re:Let me be the 1st (Score:2, Insightful)
There's usually a time when one's formal IQ-number is the single greatest weapon in an arsenal of self-esteem... at least for geeks.
But the older (and, ideally, smarter) one gets, the more that number's importance diminishes alongside the many other (and very practical BTW) mental assets one comes to recognize and envy.
Re:Missunderstanding (Score:4, Insightful)
This issue, like abortion, religion and others like that (...emacs vs. vi - oops, perhaps that doesn't go here) is so loaded that there is nobody there who is capable of serously and objectivly conducting an investigation of this.
The bigger problem with this, the way I see it, is that before we even get to comparing men vs. women, we need to define what "intelligence" is and how to measure it.
Interestingly there is an accepted and known test for machine intelligence --the Turing test, but for humans it is not as clear. Is a tribesman from Africa less intelligent than me? He knows how to kill a lion, while I might know what a Hilbert space is, so who is more intelligent?
Until there is a concrete and accepted definition of human intelligence there can be no study about who is more intelligent than whom.
One might as well say that "men have been shown to be better at 'blah' then women, while women consistently outperform men at 'foo', and both are equally good at 'x'." Untill those 'blah', 'foo' and 'x' are defined the statement will make no sense.
Re:Politically Correct != Correct (Score:3, Insightful)
This issue is so loaded with social and cultural connotation, it is almost like abortion or religion.
Intelligence is not easily defined for humans, and thus it cannot be consistently measured. (Saying what an IQ test measures is intelligence is a circular argument).
I am in neither camp, I don't think that men and women are totally equal. This again is probably an oversimplication that arose to combat the earlier basis for discrimanation against women. Women and men are different biologically, especially when it comes to hormones, not just "piping". Hormones like testosterone and estrogen act on everyone's brain, and if they are powerfull enough to make some guy grow breasts, trust me, they are powerfull enough to alter the brain chemistry.
So men and women are different. The are not better than each other consistently over all the possible tasks, they are just _different_
I've heard that testosterone improves spatial orientation ability, so men might be better at reading maps, but women might be are better at verbal skills and they have more empathy. Depending at what you are looking for you'll always find some task that someone is better than someone else.
At the same time, the difference is so small that it only becomes a predisposition. Men's predisposition to do better in Math is like a predisposition to have cancer. Not everyone will be an Einstein and not everyone will get cancer. It is possible through education (this is the nature vs. nurture argument creeping in...) and parenting to produce women mathematicians that are just as good or better than men mathematicians.
Re:Let me be the 1st (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Politically Correct != Correct (Score:2, Insightful)
In my personal opinion, a genius is one that is able to extract the semantics from seemingly meaningless data. A person that is able to see beyond the apparent in the world around them.
In any case, what I've come to understand is quite simple. Nobody knows what intelligence really is, so how can someone accurately measure it? There may be a correlation between success and IQ, but then again, since when does success mean intelligence?
Anyways, I'll leave it at that. Take it all with a grain of salt.
Re:Missunderstanding (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Obviously, we *are* more intelligent (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Let me be the 1st (Score:2, Insightful)
Comment removed (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Missunderstanding (Score:3, Insightful)
Emotions are irrational and transient in time, logic is not.
Show me the emotion that doesn't have a logical cause?
Albeit I guess there is a "logical cause" in perception, but if I told you that someone close to you died and you believed me, you would probably be upset to some degree regardless of the truth of the person being alive or dead.
A person could be very upset about something important like breaking a fingernail, and at the peak of that upset condition that same person finds out that they just won $10,000,000 in the state lottery, and almost immediately the fingernail is not important anymore.
I cannot invalidate emotions. They are a very important part of human life, but they are illogical and it takes very specific circumstances for emotions to surface and for them to go away.
Does everybody here still cry and get upset when they don't get a piece of candy? If emotions were logical, then the same condition would evoke the same response.
Re:Let me be the 1st (Score:3, Insightful)
That being said, I think I may be able to offer a suggestion here, which people may or may not find to be accurate, but holds in my experience.
I'm not sure we can talk about a single test defining "intellegence". There are so many different aspects to it that giving it a single number is deceptive. In fact, I'd venture to say that the test doesn't cover all the aspects and this might be the reason for the differences in scores.
I am definately of the mindset that women and men think somewhat differently. I can't put my finger on exactly what this difference is, but I have noticed it on occasion. For example, despite the fact that we have a very similar background and schooling, I have noticed that when I design code, the structure tends to be somewhat different than most of the males in my group. A lot of them will look at a problem from one angle, and I will try to approach it from another angle entirely. How much of this is actually attributable to gender differences, I'm not sure, but there does seem to be a slight difference in the way that males and females think.
That being said, the IQ test is rather old and comes from a day when mostly men were controlling academia and things like IQ testing. The tests were designed by men. If men were designing the tests, would it not then be reasonable to assume that the tests might be more geared towards men?
As a sort of aside - when I was in university, my best friend was this incredibly intelligent girl down my hall. I'm talking genius level here - top of her class in high school, top of her program at graduation, awards and scholarships being thrown at her etc. etc. and she barely even had to study for anything because just going to class was usually enough for her to get just about everything. BUT...the one class she really struggled with was CAD design. Because she absolutely could not picture 3D things in 2D. Hand her a 3-view and it was like 3 totally different objects until she sat down and bent up the paper and got it into a 3D form. Her brain just didn't work that way. Put her down at an IQ test and you'd find her scrunching up the paper, really struggling with some of the geometry stuff, but her down in front of a slighly differently designed test and she'd probably beat the pants off of the vast majority of the people I know. Not great at an IQ test, but definately not unintelligent by any stretch of the imagination.
I think we need to be careful when we make these types of generalizations...and I'm not just talking about applying these general findings to single people although that is important to recognize. More that it is important to recognize that these tests measure aspects of intelligence, but the tendancy is to take this as a measure of overall intelligence in all areas, which is does not necessarily cover.
Re:Missunderstanding (Score:3, Insightful)
Except most IQ tests I've ever seen don't properly test that. First of all, the "figuring out solutions to problems" is restricted to a very small set of problems, usually of the form "spot the pattern". Secondly, they still require some knowledge, as you admit yourself. They are certainly biased towards people who are good at maths for example, and it is possible to improve your "IQ" with practice.
IQ tests are not useless, but it is important to remember they test a very specific sort of "intelligence" - namely, logic, or ability to spot patterns. I had to do some for an interview with a software company - here it is relevant, because those skills are needed in computer programming, but can you really say that computer programming is a better measure of intelligence than say, being a historian?
Whilst an IQ test may require less knowledge than a maths or history exam, it is possible to construct academic tests which are less dependent upon knowledge - eg, a maths test geared towards your natural mathematical ability, a history test geared towards your ability to judge evidence rather than remember dates and other facts, or a science test that involves you working out what's happening by experimentation and forming a hypothesis rather than recalling facts.
However, it would be ludicrous to suggest that because these tests are less dependent upon knowledge, that they therefore test "Intelligence" in general. IQ tests are tests of logic/pattern spotting, which is no more a factor in intelligence than that required for maths, history or science.
IQ tests are the best tool we have to measure, what we understand to be intelligence. It's like saying physics tests don't test physics knowledge, just because we don't fully understand all the laws of physics.
We have many ways to measure intelligence, and we shouldn't discard the rest for one arbitrary type. It's like saying we can measure someone's physics knowledge by setting them a quick quiz on Astronomy.
Re:why? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Politically Correct != Correct (Score:3, Insightful)
And if that was what people had said, I wouldn't have posted.
Unfortunately, what most people posted can be basically summarised as "OMG, he violated one of society's taboos! And offered some evidence that at least sparks a valuable debate on IQ and how it relates to "intelligence"! We must now ignore any serious debate on the subject and instead castigate him for being sexist!".
Which is basically exactly the same thing they scream at ID proponents for - ignoring the point and reacting purely emotionally to what should be a considered, logical discussion.
Re:Missunderstanding (Score:3, Insightful)
Albeit I guess there is a "logical cause" in perception, but if I told you that someone close to you died and you believed me, you would probably be upset to some degree regardless of the truth of the person being alive or dead.
How is that different to a "logical" argument. You can only deduce based on the information available. If you were in a box accelerating unifomly in space, you might logically deduce the presence of gravity, but you'd be wrong - it would be the force of acceleration.
And if you lie to me about a loved one dying (you bastard, you), then how is my reaction flawed in a way that "logic" is not. There is no logic vs. emotion. Emotion has a logical basis.
Re:Missunderstanding (Score:5, Insightful)
Not everything that gets flamed is flamebait.
This issue, like abortion, religion and others like that (...emacs vs. vi - oops, perhaps that doesn't go here) is so loaded that there is nobody there who is capable of serously and objectivly conducting an investigation of this.
There are FEW people capable of seriously and objectively investigating it, but far fewer who are willing to listen to them.
The bigger problem with this, the way I see it, is that before we even get to comparing men vs. women, we need to define what "intelligence" is and how to measure it.
FTFA:
I.Q. tests aren't perfect, far, far from it, I tend to say that they measure your ability to take an I.Q. test more than your intelligence, but it's something that can be measured, logged, and compared.
This study is interresting. It's not comforting, it's not in line with the current vogue of "everyone is the same" discourse, but that's no reason to NOT do the study, nor to refrain from publishing it.
If you want to debate the interpretation of the results, or the methodology, please, be my guest.
But if you object to the study itself because it's subject is sensitive, by god, STFU&GBTW!
Re:Let me be the 1st (Score:3, Insightful)
Men have larger brains and are (supposedly) stronger in analytical thought than women. Women have more interconnects and are (supposedly) capable of seeing patterns on a broader level than men.
So it would follow that if you include pattern identification questions with a broader scope, it would be biased towards women, and if they are a narrow in scope but follow chains of logic, it would be biased towards men.
It's the whole "womens intuition" thing, which has been established as having a physiological basis.
It occurs to me that while men and women have different powerful tools for arriving at the truth of things, the means they use mean that it's easier for a man to prove to you that what he has figured out is true than it is for a woman, who might see the truth but be unable to communicate to you why it's true in a conclusive way. If that's true, the most brilliant women could perceive things and be utterly frustruated in their ability to get any recognition.
Perhaps our continual advancement in computers and the increased capacity that gives us to verify things using statistical analysis rather than logical analysis will make it easier for us to harness the unique mental capacities with more confidence.
Outrage and Digust (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Let me be the 1st (Score:2, Insightful)
But does this mean that we are all stupid, because we cannot deal with situations that we are not prepared for? A man would could would certainly be an intelligent man indeed, but I don't know any such man. White men are foreign to black culture, so how is that any different? If they were, say, a scholar of modern black culture or had just as much experiance in it (that is, living their entire lives in it), I have no doubt that, apart from factors stemming from their appearance, they could be just as versitile stratagists as blacks.
You make it also sound like black culture is better than white. Granted, I have no experiance of black culture, but I have news for you: Nothing is even close to perfect. Therefore, I shy away from such assertions.
Also, since when is sexuality REPRESSED in white culture? You're confusing "white" with "Christian", Turn on your TV set to soaps, MTV, and comedy shows. Watch some of the many "R" rated movies out there. Go to college. You'll see, frankly, that white does not equal Christian.
Finally, if a white man is excluded from black society because he can't follow such complicated jokes, what is that but the enforcement of conformity? How is that different from what any other race or social class does? Learn quickly that conformity is a universal issue, just as selfishness, anger, hate, lies, and thievery are.
Re:Let me be the 1st (Score:4, Insightful)
Extremist religion. No shit, that's a large part of where Muslim extremists are getting there support in the west--Muslim kids trying to piss off their moderate parents. Fanatacism is the new punk. But it'll pass...
THANK YOU! (Score:4, Insightful)
Funny? Insightful! I wish your message would catch on universally - and for boys, too.
I just sent my little girl to kindergarten for the first time last week. I sat her down and had a heart-to-heart talk about what school would be like. I told her about how fun it's going to be to get better at reading, and learning math, and seeing the world of science, and I could see her eyes light up at the idea of the wonders in front of her.
I also told her that some people would tell her that girls can't learn or do as much as boys. I told her that those people are stupid and scared, and most importantly, wrong. She's lucky in that she has an automatic counterproof: my wife's a doctor, and graduated from Army Airborne school while in ROTC. My daughters and son know what women can do because their mommy showed them.
I also want the other little girls (and boys) to know that while there are differences between all of us, each individual can rise to the level they want. People who would tell them otherwise are murderers, as far as I'm concerned.
Re:The good professor (Score:3, Insightful)
This is entirely true, and has been proved in several studies. Are you suggesting that behaviour is not based to some degree on genetics? Do you know dogs can be bred for aggression fore example?
Race-based intelligence studies?
If you agree that intelligence is based partly on genetics (and you must, or you'd have to accept that a chimp brought up as a human would have similar intelligence levels), and different races are genetically distinct (they are, by definition), then you have to accept at least the possibility that the genes for intelligence correlate with those for race.
This sounds like a classic case of someone who ascribes to genetics what is caused by upbringing and social factors such as education.
Both nature and nurture have an effect.
I thought we were past all this crap, along with Eugenics
What's unscientific about eugenics? We can artificially select and breed animals for traits, so since humans are animals it is likely that we could do the same thing. We (rightly) tend to reject eugenics for social reasons, not because it doesn't work.
He will have to come up with some damn good evidence if he wants to convince me of such ideas.
If you're not going to even read the research, then how is he going to convince you?
A book I think you should read is a pop science book called "Genome" by Matt Ridley. I don't agree with all his conclusions, but it's a good read, and he goes into a lot of this stuff.
Re:Obviously, we *are* more intelligent (Score:3, Insightful)
I knew this to and hoped someone would post it and get modded up.
Furthermore, from the article : "and a further study of 20,000 students."
Of course, male students have higher IQ than female students. As students have a minimum IQ, (let's say 90, but any number is ok), this cuts off more very stupid males (as there are more) than very stupid females. So, in the end, the average IQ of males rises more due to the cut than the average IQ of females.
However, this does in no way allow to say that males in general are more intelligent than females.
I somewhere read that by design males and females have the same mean IQ. Females are better at verbal tasks and males better at logical & spacial tasks and IQ tests are designed to balance this out, so that both sexes have the same mean. However, males still have a higher standard deviation.
Re:Politically Correct != Correct (Score:3, Insightful)
Determining that men have higher IQs than women is as relevant as determining that black people drive faster than white people, based on the fact that their tires wear out faster. Even if the findings are accurate--and I have no reason to believe he doesn't understand how to do statistics, or run an unbiased experiment--the connection to the real question is just guesswork. In the former case, it's just a guess that studying pattern recognition and logic in the fashion that these tests do can lead us to the conclusion that intelligence is higher in men, and that's assuming one can even define intelligence meaningfully. Many factors make up intelligence as I understand it, and IQ tests examine only one, if even that. In the latter case, it's my own guess that there will be some correlation between driving speed and tire wear. But here again, many factors--road quality, distance from residence to place of employment, tire quality--will determine how fast tires wear out.
Studies about IQ distract us from the real questions about why there are differences between people in intelligence, fitness, and success (I'll leave "worth" alone). I say put this effort into defining those things better and finding real tests for them.
Re:Obviously, we *are* more intelligent (Score:3, Insightful)
Without going into details, let me say that you've just got to trust me on this one, OK? :-)
It's natural for people to change and there's no way to predict that you'll change in the same direction as your spouse.
I absolutely agree with that. On the other hand, most of the older people I've spoken to say that your 20s are the most volatile time in your life. That's the age where you step out from under your parents, begin a career, and generally try to find your place in the world. You'll (hopefully) keep changing throughout your life, but the people I know agree that it'll never be as drastic as when you're first starting out. In short, there's a pretty good chance that you and she will still be basically similar when you turn 40.
It's nice to hear the occasional success story.
There are a lot more of them than you'd think. The key is that when it works well, we don't tend to make a big deal about it. The grousers are far and away the most vocal. Above that, there's a certain amount of good-natured grousing that's basically expected from married people. When talking to friends, I'll refer to my wife as "the ol' ball-and-chain", and she'll punch me in the arm and ask me how the couch sounds for the weekend. What the casual (unmarried) observer may not realize is that a lot of couples joke with each other like that, particularly if they're very comfortable with each other. You might see two people who don't like each other. We, on the other hand, see some teasing humor that we mutually enjoy.
Marriage is probably not for me, but I sometimes forget that, in a society that pushes marriage so hard.
Whatever you do, don't succumb to that pressure. Unless you can't bear the thought of not growing old and senile with that woman, she's not Ms. Right. I have friends who're at the same place in life as you and I'd much rather they not marry and stay happy than marry for dumb reasons and be miserable.
Re:Nature vs. nurture (Score:3, Insightful)
So you'd deliberately and happily refuse to acknowledge something unarguably proven to be a fact, simply because it was possible for some people to misunderstand or misuse it? Really? Is that a good thing? Whatever happened to intellectual integrity?
"Assuming this data is true, would women be more intelligent than men if they were raised as completely equal to men? Anecdotal evidence suggests yes."
What you seem to be doing here is arguing that because the different between men and women could possibly be down to test-bias, that justifies ignoring the entire thing and relying on subjective personal judgement, from a sample-set tens of times smaller? That's not a very logical assertion...
"After all, the "smartest human in the world" judging solely by IQ is a woman, not a man."
That's completely irrelevent: We're discussing broad statistical trends, so single data-points don't prove anything. No-one at any stage was suggesting that women couldn't be geniuses, merely that more men were than women.
Basically, both men's and women's IQ scores form a bell curve. It's just that the men's is broader and flatter - more geniuses and more intellecually subnormal. The women's bell curve still has a high end.
"So if men are more intelligent, this might only demonstrate that women aren't yet being treated as full equals by our parents and teachers. Same for non-whites."
Indeed. However, we've got some evidence that points in a certain direction. Just because you can suggest a possible bias in the test, that doesn't mean the conclusions are definitely incorrect.
If you believe the test is biased you should withold judgement - it's not a valid reason to conclude the argument's wrong.
"Yet when most people hear "men are smarter than women" or "whites are smarter than blacks", they hear a sexist or racist slur."
Yes, which is why we should be careful how present the results. However, this doesn't mean the results are wrong.
"Because the statistical data does nothing to prove that women MUST REMAIN less intelligent than men. It can't. But since this is what must be inferred, it is better for the statement to remain unspoken."
You've completely missed my point. If this test indicates that men are provably more intelligent (whatever that means) than women, we should accept the conclusions, however uncomfortable they make us.
The fact that the test could possibly have bias doesn't prove it's wrong. If you (stupidly) believe the test doesn't have bias, you can believe men are definitely cleverer than women. If (as I do) you believe the test could be biased, the only logical conclusion is to withold judgement. At no point can you sensibly argue that the results are definitely wrong.
Re:Uh oh! (Score:2, Insightful)
Once women start getting noticed by men, it's all over for them. Even for smart women. You simply can't have that much attention foisted on you and not end up being damaged. Even not-so-good looking women have enough men who will do things for them (buy them things, help them move, drive, etc), that they aren't driven to do anything but look pretty (or worse, be easy).
I know that if I were constantly being pursued by random women, I'd get little done. My mind wouldn't be as immersed in technical or philosphical concerns if I were always wondering if Jane likes me. If had to spend extra time each day on makeup or outfits, that would further starve my mind. Brains, like muscles, atrophy from non-use.
Physiologically speaking, women are more emotional. I'm can't concentrate or get much done when I'm angry or in love. Maybe women can, but I doubt it. Emotions cloud intellect. The more you have, the less intellectual you are.
I do think that women are harder workers than men. And that often makes up for any intellectual deficiencies in the workplace. But the things that are simple for men, at my company, are often a tremendous struggle for the women. They get those things done by staying late and on weekends, but they shouldn't have too. I'm happy to be working with them, because like I said, they make up for it. But I've never known a single woman to be the go-to-guy when you need a technical real-world problem solved.
For the record, I very much prefer smarter women. Dumb women have no appeal to me, even when it's just for sex. I come from a family of smart women. My sister teaches statistics to PHD students at a major university. But just like all women, when she gets caught up in a relationship with loser boyfriend of the week, that spark goes out the window and she becomes as dumb as every other girl out there. And as much as she's a loner like me, she's never alone because boyfriends and stalkers are always pursuing her. On those rare times that she is alone, she's always working on some theorem or project.
Although I would have hated it when I was in high school, I've become convinced that schools would benefit from a division of the sexes. The public school system is bad for everyone, but placing a girl in a public school is tantamount to child abuse, in my mind. If you want your daughter to grow up to be intelligent, send her somewhere where she'll be treated like a person instead of a sperm dumpster.
Re:Missunderstanding (Score:3, Insightful)
British, because you use non-American idioms like "differently to" and "dodgy." You also use the nifty little £ sign.
Female, because you seem to be less drawn in by the ego of trolls than most men. And, you consider Joan d'Arc to be worth "sig"ing. And, your sentence pacing and tone seems slighty more "female" than "male." And, you use lots of smileys :)
But it doesn't make a bit of difference in the evaluation.
Well, actually, it might make a small bit of difference: it matters a little bit as to whether you were personally offended by the article, or simply took exception to it; knowing that (which I don't) would help "frame" your comments for better understanding.
But why not? Why could it not be the case that men are "more intelligent" -- as defined by scores on I.Q. tests -- than women, on average, while women are "more something else" than men -- as suitably defined and measured.
Take my wife and me, for example. She's brilliant: pediatrician from highly reputable school; EE before that; extraordinarily good at 3D reasoning, planning, and diagnosing tricky patient problems.
Funny thing is, she thinks I'm brilliant because I can do hardcore math and science and computers and old, dead languages.
I guess I'm espousing something like a "multiple intelligences" hypothesis, but what I'm really doing is rejecting the American Ideal: the lie that There is one WINNER and everyone else sux0rs.
My 2c. :-)