NPR Talks Skyhooks 328
David writes "NPR's Talk of the Nation this past week featured Brad Edwards, President of Carbon Designs Inc., to talk about their plans to develop an elevator that would lift people to an object orbiting in outer space. The project's homepage details their plans and ambitions. The discussion expands on callers' concerns about such problems as commercial airliners running into the super long cable or if it would act as a conduit for lightning."
Skyhooks? (Score:4, Funny)
Why bring up the Aussie 70's supergroup [wikipedia.org]?
Re:Skyhooks? (Score:2)
I suspect you already know this, but figured somebody else might not get the reference.
Re:Skyhooks? (Score:3, Informative)
According to the Wikipedia article:
Re:Skyhooks? (Score:2, Funny)
*reference may be lost on
wrong concerns (Score:3, Insightful)
People should be more worried about if this is the best way to spend money or not. Personally, I think it's a pretty sweet idea and I'd be totally for supporting it. Looks quite awesome, actually!
Re:wrong concerns (Score:3, Insightful)
Unless the pilot is a crazed Saudi with a taste for Flight Simulator...
Re:wrong concerns (Score:5, Insightful)
Besides, the very first use of the very first skyhook should be to build the *second* one. It only gets easier the more we do it, and boy, does taking an elevator beat strapping an explosion to your butt.
Here's to audacity and dreaming big dreams.
Re:wrong concerns (Score:2, Insightful)
And what if he is? The elevator is in the middle of a frickin' 4000 square mile no-fly zone. They'd see him coming for several hours before he got there. There would be loads of time to, um, dissuade him from his course.
Re:wrong concerns (Score:2)
Not that I am holding my breath on a space elevator or terrorists attacking it.
Re:wrong concerns (Score:3, Insightful)
This proposed space elevator i
Re:wrong concerns (Score:3, Informative)
Sorry, this isn't "insightful". Need I say RTFA? Perhaps I do.
Re:wrong concerns (Score:2)
Re:wrong concerns (Score:2)
Re:wrong concerns (Score:3, Informative)
Re:wrong concerns (Score:2)
Because parts of it might flutter to the ground like paper, but the bit attached to the load would reach the ground at the load's terminal velocity. Anyway, it's not the impact with the ground which would matter. If the cable hit the ground, you'd have vast amounts of transport (shipping, cars, trains etc) all tangled up in thousands of kilometres of super-strong saran
The next x-prize (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:The next x-prize (Score:5, Funny)
Re:The next x-prize (Score:2)
They already are.
NASA's Centennial Challenges Program [nasa.gov]
2005 Tether Challenge [elevator2010.org]
2005 Beam Power Challenge [elevator2010.org]
Slashdot article from a few months ago [slashdot.org]
Granted, it'd be nice to see them offer more money, but Congress is currently keeping them from awarding prizes larger than a certain amount.
Re:The next x-prize (Score:2)
Answer (Score:5, Funny)
We firmly believe that the set of technologies that underlie the infinite promise of the Space Elevator can be demonstrated, or proven infeasible, within a 5 year time-frame. And hence our name. Elevator:2010. we promise to get an answer for you by then.
Message 5 years from now:
42
Re:Answer (Score:2)
Re:I don't get it. (Score:2)
I just have to ask... (Score:4, Funny)
The longest song in my MP3 collection is 22:43 (Autobahn by Kraftwerk - even on topic, sort of...) Is that long enough for the ride up? How many quarters do I need to put in the slot?
Re:I just have to ask... (Score:2)
I think you're looking at something like Wagner's Ring Cycle instead. 18 hours sounds about right for a space elevator ride.
How many quarters do I need to put in the slot?
What the hell elevator do you ride that requires you to pay to get musak?? Personally, I'd pay to silence the damn thing...
Re:I just have to ask... (Score:2)
Hope they have enough barf bags ...
Sex Objekt [progarchives.com] is much better Kraftwerk. Autobahn is just ... 22.72 minutes of boredom. (I've got that vinyl somewhere. ..)
I may need to pull it out and hook up the turntable just to remind myself how bad it is, 31 years later. (It's from 1974, right?)
Re:I just have to ask... (Score:2)
Re:I just have to ask... (Score:2)
It's a Small World After All?
*cringe*
Re:I just have to ask... (Score:2)
We'll put my collection on "shuffle" for ya.
The real reason for my reply is this - CRAP! I don't care if you can make it "thinner than a sheet of paper". Please make it thicker, just for marketing purposes. I'll feel better, a lot of folks would. I don't know how thick it needs to be to be "substantial", that is a question for some undergrade su
Re:I just have to ask... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:I just have to ask... (Score:2)
Just for kicks - the current random song playing on my collection is "Doom II" - "13 - waiting for romero to pl"
Hmmm... a sign?
Re:I just have to ask... (Score:2)
essentially invisible
Of course, when it is in use, there will be several power stations transmitting laser beams to the photovoltaic cells on the bottom of the climber, in order to power it. I wonder if those will be more visible?
Re:I just have to ask... (Score:2)
Re:I just have to ask... (Score:2)
(I understand the technical part of it ;-) just joshing ya!)
Re:I just have to ask... (Score:2)
Re:I just have to ask... (Score:2)
Tensile strength is proportional to cross sectional area.
Thicker = Stronger
Re:I just have to ask... (Score:2)
The center of mass for the elevator has to be at this altitude, as the elevator basically works like a geostationary satellite.
From [unmuseum.org]:
This spurred Edwards to come up with a plan for a space elevator he called "The Wright Brother's version." In Edward's simplified plan, a robotic platform is boosted into space to the right height (22,300 miles) needed for the geosynchronous orbit. The platform would carry two spools of a CNT in the form
Muzak (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Muzak (Score:2)
You're going to eat a lot more Kenny G. than that, since the endpoint would have to be in geosynchronous orbit, in order for the cable to stay taut and the station not to fall back on Earth.
Re:Muzak (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Muzak (Score:2)
Certainly the end of the cable has to be in GSO, but really, other than communications and weather/observation satellites, what els
Re:Muzak (Score:2)
kiddies beware... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:kiddies beware... (Score:2)
Protection is a non-issue (Score:4, Insightful)
simple to solve. Put the base in the ocean, and stick a carrier task force there to protect it.
We already have an example to follow. Fort Knox has a tank combat training ground there, and plenty of tanks stationed there permanently. Good luck trying to raid the place.
Terrorist attacks are dangerous because they could happen anywhere, but that doesn't mean that we can't make a single known place extremely secure from that sort of thing. If it is decided that no aircraft will approach within 100 miles of a space elevator, a single carrier task group could enforce that easily. Revenues from the space elevator would easily pay for the security force too, and it'll still be the cheapest way to get something into space.
Re:Protection is a non-issue (Score:2)
Re:Protection is a non-issue (Score:2)
Not like there's anything we can do about that.
Re:Protection is a non-issue (Score:2, Insightful)
Once it's in service for a while, the 'new' factor is gone and it's just another large structure, less suited for a terrorist target than most. No one really sweats a terr attack at Johnson Space Center after all.
better yet (Score:4, Interesting)
Better yet, put it on Nauru.
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos
With the phosphates gone, the international money laundering (er banking) industry dismantled, and nothing else on the horizon, this could be just what this island nation needs.
Finally something that severe isolation is good for.
Re:Protection costs $$$ (Score:2)
There are reasons that America spends more on the military than every other country on earth combined, and carrier groups are part of that reason.
Going to the moon (Score:2)
Anyway, the most interesting thing I heard in this interview was that they said that if you let the elevator go up really far, close to the counter weight, and let go of an object there, it would fly faster than with conventional rockets because of the centrifugal motion.
So that could be used to fling stuff from earth really fast. And since
Re:Going to the moon (Score:2)
They're serious, and poised to succeed just as well as the dozens of people and companies who have been studying the problem for decades.
The space elevator won't happen in your lifetime. Just like the permanent moon base, the SDI and hundreds of such grandiose and vaporous projects. The only one I've seen completed that I didn't think woul
Re:Going to the moon (Score:2)
The moon base, SDI, and all the other grandiose projects would all be made possible by the space elevator. The reason they haven't happened so far is because lifting large amounts of mass into orbit is just too expensive with rockets. Once you can lift entire buildings into orbit on a weekly basis, a moon base is almost trivial.
As for the space elevator n
Re:Going to the moon (Score:3, Interesting)
That said, there are larger problems, and this is probably an overly ambitious approach. I think that it would be better to start with pinwheels rather than a space elevator. You get about half the advantages, at a considerably reduced construction cost. And one pinwheel serves many locations on the earth. (You may well need to wait several hours for one to c
*NIX and no Real (Score:2, Informative)
Should work if one has mplayer but does not have realplayer.
Interesting interview (Score:3, Informative)
Highlights
- Location? Straight south of California near the equator.
- Timeframe? 15+ years
- What if an airliner flew into it? Pretty much screwed. But the location is 400 miles from any air route so shouldn't be a problem.
- How long would it take to get up? A few hours.
- Wouldn't it be a huge lightning rod? Yeah, but that area of the world does not have lightning, so shouldn't be a problem.
- Wouldn't the car that goes up the cable just pull it down and not crawl up it? Yes, but the car is only a few tons and the weight of the cable and weight on the other end was something like a couple thousand tons. So shouldn't be a problem.
There are a lot of "shouldn't be a problem"'s in there that one of them will be a problem. Exciting technology though.
Re:Interesting interview (Score:5, Interesting)
Besides, there doesn't need to be lighting for electricity to be an issue. You can generate electricity by moving a conductor through a magnetic field. I would think 62k miles of carbon nanotube ribbon running through the magnetic field of the earth would make a pretty good generator.
IIRC, they already have to deal with this when tethering satalites to the space shuttle. I remember hearing that every material they've tried has some length at which it generates enough power to burn itself up (though that length might be several miles).
Re:Interesting interview (Score:2)
What's stupid is making a blind assertion like the above, without any facts or knowledge to back it up. Apparently there are places without lightning, and this is one of them. If you have some knowledge to the contrary, let's hear it.
You can generate electricity by moving a conductor through a magnetic field. I would think 62k miles of carbon nanotube ribbon running through the magnetic field of the earth
Re:Interesting interview (Score:2)
Re:Interesting interview (Score:2)
Re:Interesting interview (Score:2)
Did you actually look at that map before your posted? Your map doesn't show any information about lightning frequency over the oceans.
This page [www.isr.us] contains the information you were looking for.
No free lunch (Score:2)
This elevator will propel its payload straight up at 200 mile/h, using solar power? Those are mighty powerful solar panels.
In a nutshell, you have to supply escape-velocity energy to any mass you drag up the thing. No two ways about it.
Re:No free lunch (Score:3, Informative)
The current solution to the problem you outlined is to shoot the thing with a laser (a big frickin' laser) on the ground. Keep the laser trained on the elevator car, and on the car convert that light to the electricity you need to crawl up the line.
I wouldn't be surprised if some day some smart engineer figures out a way to use the potential energy of a down-moving car to supply some of the energy to an up-moving car (Not all, of course, gotta pay mister Entropy).
Re:No free lunch (Score:2)
Re:No free lunch (Score:2)
From a power generating facility. Nuclear, coal, oil, solar, wind, natural gas, whatever type you care to use.
Re:No free lunch (Score:2)
Re:No free lunch (Score:2)
Nearly free if you have a counterweight... (Score:2)
Re:No free lunch (Score:2)
Re:No free lunch (Score:2)
Re:No free lunch (Score:2)
skiers know... (Score:2, Interesting)
God help you if the elevator goes on the fritz in the midst of your ride!
What about space debris? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:What about space debris? (Score:2)
Basically, it has been suggested that if the cable breaks a 'spray' of fragments will be thrown up and down the cable, possibly causing further damage.
Freeman Dyson is on record as saying that he doesn't think it will work for essentially this reason "but he's willing to be persuaded". This from a man who once wanted to sit on a few thousand explod
Re:What about space debris? (Score:2)
It really depends on the size of the object hitting the ribbon. Whatever hits the ribbon will likely be going fast enough to drill right through it, leaving a hole where it hit in the shape of its cross-section (think Wile E. Coyote). That's one of the reasons why they propose to use a wide flat ribbon instead of a cable -- if a small object hits it, it might leave a hole and weaken the
Really informative video (Score:3, Interesting)
Covers the basics of the elevator, what it looks like, how it works, etc...
The question of how this thing is powered never popped into my head before, but the video shows that they will use a lazer shot from the base station. Crazy stuff.
What NPR talks about after the skyhook... (Score:2, Funny)
NPR talks skyhooks. (Score:3, Interesting)
Imagine a thousand mile long tether in orbit with its center of gravity 600 above the earths surface. In addition to orbiting the earth The tether would rotate about its center of gravity at a rotation speed such that its speed relative to the earths surface at its ends closent approch would be zero.
A rocket would have to ascend to 100 miles up and rondezvous with a a tether end that, for the moment, is stationary. It would remain atteached to the tether while the tether rotated 180 degrees about its center of gravity. At tht point the rocket would be 1100 miles above the earth and traveling at about twice orbital velocity. If the rocket detatched at this point would would be well above escape velocity.
Longer tethers would reduce G forces and avoid the need for the first 100 mile step. The ultime version of the tether would have a CG in geosynchronous orbit and aon end on the ground.
Space Gondola (Score:2)
Solution to problems: space fountain (Score:3, Interesting)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_fountain [wikipedia.org]
Shadows of America (Score:2, Funny)
Always the best part (Score:2)
Fantastic.
My standard space elevator comment... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Cripes (Score:4, Interesting)
Commercial airliners will never get close to it; that's what no fly zones are for. Even if an airplane crashed into it, one solution successfully deals with both airline impacts and lightning: "maypoling" the skyhook as it nears the ground (i.e., splitting it into several cables, of which most, but not all, are needed for stability/strength.) As for lightning itself, most types of CNTs would be the "path of most resistance", barring heavy condensation on the cable. Plus, some sites in the world have very little lightning.
Re:Cripes (Score:3, Insightful)
I agree that most of the technical objections are not-too-hard-to-overcome engineering challenges, not showstoppers. If you're reading this and think you have a fatal flaw to the whole concep
Re:Cripes (Score:2)
Yeah but they've got a slight problem - we don't yet have the technology to make a cable strong enough. Until we do it's just so much science fiction.
If you're reading this and think you have a fatal flaw to the whole concept, and haven't spent months on it doing some calculations and reading papers, I'll take the opportunity to laugh at your idea now
Actually the concept, physics and calc
Re:Cripes (Score:3, Interesting)
Progress has been fast with CNT materials. The promise (which is a promise not a certainty) is that we'll know if we can make a strong enough material in the next five years based on CNT technology. Investing in this sort of research is a good idea (and we nearly hired someone this year who worked in the area).
Re:Cripes (Score:2)
This seems to be an appropriate response to virtually every discussion on every Slashdot story ever. I'd like to nominate that this reply be hardcoded into the slashcode to be automatically inserted at a random point in every story's comments.
Kudos, sir.
Re:Cripes (Score:2)
Not required. One can easily present another's informed opinion, if the other person has spent months on it doing calculations and reading papers. And there are lots of those out there.
Re:Cripes (Score:2)
Re:Maypoling to avoid sats too (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Cripes (Score:2)
Re:Towers 2.0 (Score:2)
Re:Towers 2.0 (Score:3, Informative)
I thought this as well, but no, they don't. A rough diagram of a space elevator would be:
O--------
Where the "O" is the Earth. Imagine, right before "tying down" the base of your elevator, you drag i "up" a few dozen degrees to New York. The farther North you go, the more of an angle it will have, but it's not unstable so long as it's anchored.
The first thousand miles of the climb would be like a very steep gondola ride.
Re:Towers 2.0 (Score:2)
Re:Towers 2.0 (Score:2)
Re:Towers 2.0 (Score:2)
Re:Towers 2.0 (Score:2)
The other point is the details of that issue. How much heavier would a 40'N cable have to be than a 0' cable? Therefore, how much force is exerted on the anchor? And how much volume of harborbottom much is needed to exceed that force, including the cargo loads, and possibly even variables like lunar tides and other perturbers? If the cable is anchored to a giant sack of muck in the h
Re:Nothing new under the sun (Score:3, Funny)
Babel, not Babble (Score:3, Informative)
At the time, it was better known as Babel. It wasn't named Babble until the people could no longer understand each other.
Later of course, Babel and Mabel got together and had lots of Baby Bels. The runt of the family was nicknamed Deci Bel.
Re:Greatest story ever! (Score:3, Interesting)