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Space Science

White Knight Testing X-37 86

Posted by Hemos from the chuck-yeager-where-are-you dept.
mknewman writes "The innovative carrier plane used to air-launch SpaceShipOne has a new mission. At its inland spaceport in Mojave, Calif., the White Knight mothership has been involved in fit and high-speed taxi checks with a new passenger: the X-37, an unpiloted, reusable space plane. "
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White Knight Testing X-37 More

White Knight Testing X-37

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  • Private Space May Be The Only Game Left (Score:5, Interesting)

    by geomon ( 78680 ) on Monday May 30, 2005 @11:47AM (#12676722) Homepage Journal
    The cynical people (like me) know that the best way to kill an agency is to starve it to death slowly. The Mars mission is a classic example of this process. First you cut back on all smaller missions to consolidate spending under one gigantic program. Then you allow the costs for the gigantic mission to ballon until their is no public support for it any longer. At that point you can kill the agency without political damage.

    Fortunately there are newer, less expensive methods for delivering payloads into LEO and with this vehicle it will be possible to perform much of what NASA proposed doing with the ISS with a fraction of the cost.

    Universities would be a good customer for this type of launch/service space company because the payloads launched by NASA come with significant strings attached to them and they do not get to control the vehicle once launched.

    How much do you think a partnership between a university and a private company could save by doing their own space probes?
    • The future is looking pretty bright for space travel right now. Nasa is finally facing some competition again, both from the European space agancy, the russians and private enterprises. I think the cost of sending junk to space will decrease by an order of magnitude in the next decade.
    • I agree that LEO is best left to the private concerns. However I disagree about your view of what setting a Mars mission does to NASA.

      NASA should be about advancing our capabilities many fold. This does not mean doing the same damn thing we have been doing for nearly 50 years which is playing around in orbit of our own planet.

      NASA should be about goals outside the capabilites (read monetary concerns) of privates/corporations. This means setting up on the moon and eventually getting to Mars.

      Scenario.

    • Fortunately there are newer, less expensive methods for delivering payloads into LEO and with this vehicle it will be possible to perform much of what NASA proposed doing with the ISS with a fraction of the cost.

      Exactly what newer methods? What is "this vehicle"? The White Knight? The White Knight is a conventional air craft that goes no where near LEO. Perhaps you are talking about the X-37? While it is testing new, cheaper space travel technologies, I don't see how it can do what the ISS can do,

  • this X37 design (Score:2, Interesting)

    by WormholeFiend ( 674934 )
    reminds me of the one that Steve Austin crashed in the Six Million Dollar Man tv program intro...

    • Real-life crash (Score:5, Informative)

      by Latent Heat ( 558884 ) on Monday May 30, 2005 @12:09PM (#12676850)
      As explained in Milton Thompson's "Flight Without Wings", the Steve Austin crash was an actual crash at Edwards of one of the lifting bodies. But in real life, the pilot actually walked away from that one -- apparently they needed extra weight in the nose to balance the craft for flight, so they used that weight to beef up the safety cage for the pilot.
      • as AC pointed it out, he did lose an eye [nasa.gov].

        And to the moderator who modded me down, WTF?! It does look similar :P [nasa.gov].

        Ok, well maybe except for the big holes in the hull.
      • IMDB [imdb.com] offers the following:

        The aircraft seen crashing in the opening sequence of The Six Million Dollar Man was an M2-F2, a "flying body configuration" built by Northrup. The audio sound effects are from a crash that occurred on May 10, 1967, at Edwards Air Force base in California (although the dialogue heard was recorded by Lee Majors). The test pilot, Bruce Peterson, hit the ground at 250 mph, tumbling six times. He lost use of his right eye and had to stop flying, ending his career. Understandably, Pete

      • I think it was the tail configuration that the lifting body had. The two small vertical tails at the end of the delta wing is inherently unstable under certain conditions. I used to have the reference but I forget at this moment.

        This is one of the reasons the space shuttle has a huge vertical tail.

        Another point.. the B52- High and Mighty - NASA 008 was actually retired after the X-43A scramjet test last year. So now they have to find another plane to do the job. Scaled Composites is just another comp

  • Why? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by uberdave ( 526529 ) on Monday May 30, 2005 @12:32PM (#12676986) Homepage
    Why do they need the White Knight? Don't they usually drop these types of test craft from bombers (like the B-52)? Surely the US air force can get thier hands on one.

    • Re:Why? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by ChePibe ( 882378 )
      The White Knight will no doubt be significantly cheaper than a B52.

      Just take a look at the two:

      B52 - 8 big jet engines, combat crew of 5 (probably smaller for most NASA missions), 159 feet long.

      White Knight - Not entirely familiar with the specs on this plane, but it looks like it has two engines, a crew of one or two, and is probably about 45 feet long or so (just guessing from photos and comparing it to length of X 37).

      The White Knight is likely much cheaper to operate than a B-52, so that would proba
    • Perhaps the White Knight is cheaper to operate than a B-52? It is, after all, designed to carry something slung beneath it (externally) and then release its payload in the air...

      • Re:Why? (Score:3, Funny)

        by ChePibe ( 882378 )
        So is the B-52... only the things it carries are more likely to go "boom" than "voom" ;-)
      • The B-52 that NASA uses is also.
        It was modified to carry the X-15 but they have also carried Hounddog missiles, SRAMS, ALCMs,and Harpoon anti ship missiles.

        You are correct that the White Knight is without a doubt cheaper to operate. Not to mention the B-52 NASA uses is the last flying B-52a in the world. Odds are NASA will want to save it for payloads that are too heavy or need to be dropped at a higher speed than the White Knight can handle. In sort it is in this case the White Knight is the best tool for
    • Minor nit: NASA != USAF. Thus, NASA doesn't necessarily have ready access to large bombers. Besides, as someone else said, the White Knight was specifically designed for this purpose. Bombers weren't. Not with a payload that large.

    • Re:Why? Answer: Cost (Score:5, Informative)

      by uberdave ( 526529 ) on Monday May 30, 2005 @12:54PM (#12677111) Homepage
      I guess the answer is cost [space.com].

      "NASA has transferred its X-37 technology demonstration program to the Pentagon's Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA), which plans to go ahead with atmospheric drop tests of the prototype space plane next year."

      The B-52 aircraft that NASA normally uses for such drop tests would not be used, a decision made by the agency now in charge of the X-37 program, he said. "The cost analysis favored Scaled Composites," [NASA spokesman Michael] Braukus said.
      • 'sides, the B-52H that replaced the B-52B "Old 008" is not ready to do drop missions.

        The last mission the old warhorse did was the Hyper-X mission and they had the devils' own time with the fuel transfer system. They finally managed to avoid aborting the mission by using the air refuelling management panel.

      • Re:Why? Answer: Cost (Score:3, Interesting)

        by hey! ( 33014 )
        Hmm. So it sounds like they'd either have to speed up the preparation of the plane they'd planned to use, or to delay the program, either of which could be a lot more costly than if they had the aircraft ready to go.

        I wonder too if Scaled isn't charging something closer to marginal cost rather than average costs (e.g. not accounting for sunk costs in the fee). I can think of several strategic reasons to do so, not the least of which this is a one time opportunity to demonstrate that this kind of thing co
      • I know I've always squaked that NASA ought to amble on over to Burt's place and talk serious business. Well I'll be, they did it! Looks like NASA just might finish this project on time, and under budget. Congrats NASA.

    • Re:Why? (Score:2)

      by Rei ( 128717 )
      Would you launch a microsat on a Saturn V? The B-52 has a very large payload capacity; it's unnecessary for this task, and so you're just operating a more expensive craft. The B52 carries 30,000 kg of payload, but WhiteKnight was only designed to carry the 3,600kg SpaceShipOne.

      Furthermore, you need to look at carry-launch styles: White Knight was custom designed for a belly launch method. While the launch method requires a custom plane (its downside), the upside is that it simply works better once you'v

  • Same Ol' Same Ol' (Score:2, Insightful)

    by sycodon ( 149926 )
    Nasa has been doing this kind of crap ever since they finished the Space Shuttles.

    They start down a promising path of cheaper, more efficient access to orbit, just ditch the research.

    Personally, I think it's the middle managers that are screwing everything up. Administrations and directors come and go, but the morons in the middle are always around.
    • Nasa has been doing this kind of crap ever since they finished the Space Shuttles. They start down a promising path of cheaper, more efficient access to orbit, just ditch the research.

      Government agencies are not equipped to commercialize basic scientific research. The shuttle was an attempt to make space flight more routine and cheap, but has instead become incredibly expensive and dangerous.

  • Bloated? (Score:2, Troll)

    by tinrobot ( 314936 )
    Cost of the White Knight AND the SS1 - around $25 million

    Cost of the X37 -- $173 million.

    The article didn't say if this is $173 million is just for the X37 prototype or for one that can actually be used. My guess is the former.

    • Re:Bloated? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by kinnell ( 607819 ) on Monday May 30, 2005 @01:01PM (#12677146)
      Cost of the White Knight AND the SS1 - around $25 million

      Cost of the X37 -- $173 million.

      Maximum speed of spaceship one - mach 3.5

      Maximum speed of X37 - mach 25

      • Obviously, you didn't read the part that said the X-37 needs t be carried to orbit by another craft. It's a test bed for propulsion and reentry technologies. It was originally designed to test technologies for use in the orbital space plane. Now it's being used by DARPA.

        Space ship one, while not an orbital vehicle, actually travels under its own power.
      • Pilot of SS1: Mike Melvill
        Pilot of X-37: Software (not remote controlled)

        Customer of SS1: Nobody
        Customer of X-37: NASA, Air Force, and DARPA

    • Or at least they're not supposed to be. Rather, they give you the information that you need to then build a good air/spacecraft using similar ideas. (eg: The X-31's vectored thrust ideas being used in the F-22)
  • Hey, this looks just the right size for strategic bombs...

  • cheap (Score:1)

    by rctay ( 718547 )
    Do you know how much money it takes to maintain and fly a modified B52 as a launch platform? It may make sense for military use for quick surveillance satellite insertion, but not research. It's always about economics.
    • The main reason the B-52s are so expensive to operate is that the Air Force has steadfastly refused to refurbish them with modern engines because the upgrade would cut into funding for fighter planes.

      Those 8 engines you see on the B-52 are old, very thirsty turbojets. Fuel costs for this plane are a mutha.

      • It also requires a large crew, and lots of maintenance.
      • Actually, the Airforce has considered plans for refurbishment of the B-52s with 4 replacement Turbofan engines, but has decided to hold off on any plans due to the abundance of already delivered spareparts for the current engines (they have enough spare engines and parts to take the current fleet through to 2015 without spending any money on replacements).

  • Plagiarism (Score:1, Troll)

    by Stankatz ( 846709 )
    Why is there so much plagiarism on /.? The two sentences supposedly written by mknewman, were actually written by Leonard David, the author of the article. Why give credit to someone for cutting and pasting?
    • That's Slashdot for ya. I get modded "Troll" for pointing out plagiarism. And this isn't the first time I've seen the "article summary" posted by someone turn out to be just the first paragraph of the linked article. I went to the original article, which was on space.com, not MSNBC, and posted a comment to let them know about this problem.
  • They are so deeply different in each and every aspect that it's a miracle the dont't develop allergic reactions on the contact elements ;-)

  • Poor NASA, and Poor us. (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Xac ( 841406 )
    Man, i feel sorry for our species. We spend 3 trillion dollars on killing humanity. and only 53 million a year to save it.

    It seems like we want our species to end on this godforsaken rock.
  • Dieter Wulf's article [theatlantic.com] in The Atlantic Magazine shows a picture (not on the web) of a Wunderwaffen or Nazi "miracle weapon" that looks exactly like the White Knight Space Ship One combo. Not to knock Burt Rutan or anything, but it goes to show the German war machine did some serious thought. What's interesting is that they current thoery on the plane was to fly it into US buildings. Here's the picture [jessemazer.com]
    • The 'Amerikabomber' isn't the first application of the concept either. The Nazis experimented with several similar combinations, often called 'Mistel'. Before WW2, the Short company tried combining two flying boats into the Mayo Composite [freeola.com]. There was also a Russian bomber that could carry parasite fighters that's even older than the Mayo.

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