New Rodent Species Found

IZ Reloaded writes "A new species of rodent has been discovered by World Conservation Society researcher Dr. Robert Timmins. He found this creature in a hunter's market in Central Laos. The creature known as Kha-Nyou to the locals is so unique it represents an entire new family of wildlife. Kha-Nyou diverged from other rodents millions of years ago."

Oh..

[kevcol]

I thought this was another exposé on a spammer.

Re:Oh..

[dodobh]

Lawyer for the new species on line 3

David Letterman

[snookerdoodle]

'Already made it to David Letterman. He's surprised NYC hasn't already imported about 12,000 (IIRC) of them...

Mark

Letterman already?

[mfh]

I smell a rat.

The real question then, for this species:

[game kid]

Will it float?

Evolved?

[falzer]

Nonsense! They were designed that way. I'm sure there is some mention of these animals somewhere in The Bible.

There's already an answer to that...

[Dimensio]

...it's called "sin". Sin is deadly. Especially, apparently, to newborn children who presumably are the worst sinners of all.

Re:Evolved?

[Oligonicella]

Well yeah, it does. Microevolution inevitably leads to macroevolution and therefore species splits. This too, we have observed and documented. Crationists just refuse to acknowledge. That's what is fun to laugh at.

Re:Evolved?

[lawpoop]

What macroevolution have we *observed*? We have deduced it from evidence, but what new species did we observe?

Re:Evolved?

[Guido von Guido]

Take a look here [talkorigins.org] and here [talkorigins.org].

Nothing dramatic, but we haven't been keeping track for that long.

Re:Evolved?

[Daniel Dvorkin]

Funny, last time I had this argument, the creationists were arguing that speciation had never been observed, and that that was macroevolution; "microevolution" was what they were calling change within species. Congratulations -- you folks are evolving quickly.

Re:Evolved?

[Dimensio]

This is still only evidence for speciation (microevolution).

Funny, last I heard "speciation" was the big "macroevolution" barrier. Now it's something else -- something that you don't even define.

This is why creationists never "lose". They keep redefining terms whenever they're shown to be wrong on a front. Oh, and frequently when shown to be wrong on something, they just keep repeating the same erroneous information be it claims that certain observed things have not been observed or dishonestly quoti

Re:Evolved?

[Guido von Guido]

Coming up with "their own flawed studies" is a creationist tactic that has evolved since it was pointed out in one of those trials in the eighties that creationists didn't actually do any research.

The problem with attempting to do research is that it makes the goalposts harder to move. Not that they won't try!

Creationists are Liars

[Theatetus]

Scum.

From post 12529332:

What macroevolution have we *observed*? We have deduced it from evidence, but what new species did we observe?

An example of a new species was offered.

Now, from post 12529710:

This is still only evidence for speciation (microevolution). No observations of macroevolution have ever been made.

You are all pathetic lying scum who can't even be bothered to learn the basics of biology. Which is it? Is speciation micro or macro? Here's a thought: Why don't you define a quan

Be a bit more fair

[HiThere]

He's saying that "we know that species can vary, but that we don't know that new species can be created". But he's trying to sound scientific, so he's creating (or adopting?) scientific sounding terms. Likely he can't easily define them, but this doesn't mean that he knows they are illegitimate (without a real definition).

The point is nearly correct. We've only observed a very few species being created, and most of those would only be known to be new species by a biologist who was tracking them. (And r

Re:Evolved?

[HiThere]

There is (or was?) a butterfly that was one species throughout the US, because there was a constant gradient of reproduction. But the East Coast variant couldn't breed with the West Coast variant. If the middle range has been killed off (it was always the sparser of the two) then they are now two species. (Presuming, of course, that both the East Coast and West Coast variants still survive.)

Will this satisfy you for macro-evolution? Now I'll grant that as far as I know there have been no follow-up studi

Re:Evolved?

[Daniel Dvorkin]

The totally nonexistent distinction between "microevolution" and "macroevolution" is a classic example of the way religious believers are constantly forced to "move the goalposts" by scientific evidence. The game goes something like this:

Religion: God created every living thing in its current form in six days.

Science: Actually, the Earth is a whole lot older than any literal reading of the Book of Genesis can account for, and here's the proof.

Religion: Um ... okay ... so the "days" were really, really long. But He still created everything in the form it has today. That's what we meant to say all along.

Science: Actually, populations of living things change all the time, and here's the proof.

Religion: Um ... okay ... so change can occur within species. But species themselves do not change, and they are the "kinds" referred to in the Bible. That's what we meant to say all along.

Science: Actually, new species do arise from existing species, and here's the proof.

Religion: Um ... okay ... so some species can evolve into others, but only within taxonomic families. Families are the "kinds" referred to in the Bible, and are eternal. Except for humans, of course, which are different from all other animals. That's what we meant to say all along.

Science: Actually, humans aren't all that different from other animals, and here's the proof.

Religion: Um ... okay ... (etc.)

Re:Evolved?

[nanojath]

You fucking rock and rolled that imaginary argument with an imaginary group of people. The ideas you invented for your imaginary adversaries were foolish, while your responses to the foolish arguments you invented were sane and reasonable. A for rhetoric!

Re:Evolved?

[Daniel Dvorkin]

I only wish I were "inventing" the arguments (or the people). In fact, I was summarizing them. If you feel my summary was inaccurate, please tell me how.

Re:Evolved?

[RichardX]

Now remember, my child, Everything would've been hunky-dory, except I told you to stay away from the cookie jar and you didn't, so now I have to punish and torture you every day for the rest of your life.

Man, what a great and loving parent.

Incidentally, on the subject of Genesis, which of the two contradictory creation stories would be the correct one?

Re:Evolved?

[RichardX]

Contradictory? Please explain in detail so that I can answer properly

Sure, it's pretty straightforward.
In genesis chapter 1 the animals were created, then man and woman were created simultaneously.

In genesis chapter 2 Adam was created first, then the animals, then Eve was made from Adam's rib

But y'know what? That page you just linked to (in which, incidentally, all I see is a whole pile of circular reasoning) claims that everything in the bible is literally true and accurate, which makes the Genesis pr

Re:Evolved?

[RichardX]

Good grief, that site really pushes apologetics and interpretation-bending to the limit.

When it says "the Earth is flat, immobile, and mounted on pillars", what it *actually* means is that "it's round, spins on it's axis in space and around the sun"

Silly me.

Oh. and when it says "Jesus died on the cross for all our sins and was resurrected 3 days later" What it actually means is "you can get great value and low low prices all year round at Wal-Mart"

Huzzah for interpretation. Whereever would we be without

Re:Actually,

[Lars T.]

God created evolution to punish creatonists.

WWF

[alexandreracine]

Dr Mark Robinson, working with WWF Thailand

Really?? Hes a Wrestler?

Re:WWF

[Jeff DeMaagd]

I thought those incidents were stupid.

I don't know how other countries handle it (both are international organizations), but two organizations can legally share the same abbreviation in the US, it doesn't matter who was "there" first. Two organizations can have the same abbreviation trademarked too, they just can't be in the same categories, and there are hundreds of categories to choose from, and I think the design must be different, the logo designs were hardly "confusingly similar".

But both organizati

Re:WWF

[Skevin]

Two organizations can have the same abbreviation trademarked too, they just can't be in the same categories

There's a happy medium somewhere... Haven't you ever watched Animal Face Off [discovery.com] on the Discovery Channel?

Solomon Chang

Re:WWF

[Afrosheen]

Well, that's close. It was actually a quote from a Space Ghost episode where Space Ghosts's father showed up and talked smack to Zorak. Voiced by Randy Savage.

Clarification

[skatrek]

AFAIK "family" and "species" mean different things (the mnemonic "King Philip Cried Out For Goodness Sake" comes to mind - the order is kingdom, phylum, class, order, family, genus, species) ... they found a new species which is so different they had to make a new family/genus for it?

Re:Clarification

[abulafia]

Well, your fancy old kingdoms and phyla might be right for you, but in my family, I know they rest of them are of a different species, and sometimes I suspect a different order, as well, at least with some of them...

Some of them eat chinese "food" from strip malls, for dog's sake...

RTFA

[fireboy1919]

Yes. They found a new species that is so differenty they had to make a new family and genus for it.

The articles really short. It took me about 30 seconds to read.

Another A to R

[darkonc]

The CBC [www.cbc.ca] has a slightly more detailed article (including related links). It also mentions that they found a new species of rabbit.

Re:RTFA

[HiThere]

Well, the individual corpse is the only known representative of either the species or the family...if you exclude bone fragments found in owl pellets.

To me the article clearly claimed that it was a new family, not just a new species. See, in particular, the quote at the bottom.

Yes, New Family/Genus/Species, total odd-ball

[billstewart]

One of the articles quoted the guy saying, "we knew we had a really odd-ball rodent." Wikipedia [wikipedia.org] has already been updated to identify it as Family Laonastidae, Genus/Species "Laonastes aenigmamus". The Wikipedia author identifies the suborder as "Hystricognathi"; one of the news articles suggested that Timmons thinks that Laonstes may be an early ancestor of that suborder, but that's filtered through reporter-speak.

An article predating this discovery lists 29 Families of Rodentia [uvm.edu]. The Old-World Hystricognathi include old-world porcupines, mole rats, cane rats, and Dassie rats; the New World families are a lot broader.

"Rodents of Unusual Size? I don't think they exist!

Re:Clarification

[eobanb]

No, it doesn't work this way any more. For a bit more of an explanation see this table / timeline [eoban.com].

Re:Clarification

[krunk4ever]

(the mnemonic "King Philip Cried Out For Goodness Sake" comes to mind - the order is kingdom, phylum, class, order, family, genus, species)

that's what they taught you in school? we got to learn the real version where King Phillip Calls Out For Great Se... (you can figure the last character) ;p

Re:Clarification

[jericho4.0]

Nothing says "I'm a virgin forever" than not having the balls to spell "sex".

Re:Clarification

[jericho4.0]

Linnean nomenclature is on it's way out. It implies black and white in a world of grey.

Re:Clarification

[hooded1]

My sixth grade science teacher taught it to us as "King Philip Came Over From Germany Stoned"
She was an odd woman

Re:Clarification

[Che Guevarra]

I prefer the "Kathy Put Cookies On Floor, Good Stuff" invented by a friend of mine in junior high. I've never forgotten it.

Re:Clarification

[benna]

King Philip came over from germany sunday.

From TFA

[Albinofrenchy]

From TFA:

Found along side the slender faced rodent was four turtles, with comic head bands. Unfortunatly, the rats previous owner, a martial arts expert, was found killed next to the animals...

Re:From TFA

[Capt'n Hector]

Brilliant, sir. It DOES look like Splinter!

I don't understand...

[slapout]

known as Kha-Nyou to the locals

How could it be discovered if it's already known to someone?

Re:I don't understand...

[oscartheduck]

The same way that the American continent was discovered despite there being millions of people living there already.

Discovered doesn't mean "first discovered". It means something more like "finally discovered by a white human male with either a degree or a lot of money".

It's like Art...

[NotQuiteReal]

It isn't Art unless other Artistic types deem it so.

In this case, the rodent in question wasn't discovered until those who care about such things proclaim it discovered.

In other news, everything else is just as it was before, just a day older, whether you knew it or not. Carry on.

Re:I don't understand...

[shm]

Well put.

Many years ago I saw the following dialog in a cartoon:

Teacher: "Who discovered the Niagara Falls?"
Little Kid: "The people who lived there."

I think the sequence ends with the little kid wearing dunce's hat.

Re:I don't understand...

[bcrowell]

Discovered doesn't mean "first discovered". It means something more like "finally discovered by a white human male with either a degree or a lot of money".
Oh, please. The point is that it's been placed into the scientific classification scheme for the first time, and now it can be related to the rest of scientific knowledge about mammals.

The planet Uranus is visible to the naked eye. I'm sure countless prehistoric people saw it at one time or another. Ancient people also classified stars and planets diff

Re:I don't understand...

[poopdeville]

Obviously, in this Eurocentric world of ours, a thing is discovered if and only if it is known to Americans.

Silliness aside, we might say that this scientist discovered the Kha-Nyou independently, in much the same way that the Columbus discovered America after that Viking who's name I forget, (possibly China), and the Native Americans.

Re:I don't understand...

[forii]

Obviously, in this Eurocentric world of ours, a thing is discovered if and only if it is known to Americans.

You fail at geography.

any news on the new human species

[Edmund Blackadder]

Anyone have any news on whether those humanoid remains discovered in malaisa were classified as a new species?

No replacement for Nutria

[Sean Clifford]

Cool, I wonder how many other mammals we have running around out there waiting to be discovered? Well, maybe not waiting around to be on Leno...

Since the Kha-Nyou only have one pup at a time there's no hope they can displace Louisiana's Nutria rat problem [southerner.net]. Interesting that the Kha-Nyou are vegetarian rats; that's certainly an oddity. Rodents tend to eat pretty much everything (Cat5 cables, cardboard, styrofoam, cafeteria food).

Nutria rats are a serious ecological problem around here (rural Louisiana). If you're bored on the weekend you can get $4 a tail.

Re:No replacement for Nutria

[kevcol]

Interesting that the Kha-Nyou are vegetarian rats; that's certainly an oddity.

I believe the fellow quoted in the article is mistaken- these rodents are vegans.

Re:No replacement for Nutria

[ShadowBlasko]

Because they are somewhat arboreal as well, you might do well to think of them as more squirrel like than rat like. Squirrels are mostly vegetarian, although they will certainly munch on the tasty grub or cicada here and there.

Not all rodents are omnivourus, not even most. Although I will back you up on the fact that certain rodents will eat cat5. One of our rehab squirrels had quite the taste for it. (and floppies, and just about anything that was under my desk)

Re:No replacement for Nutria

[Feztaa]

Rodents tend to eat pretty much everything (Cat5 cables, cardboard, styrofoam, cafeteria food).

Whoa! I won't even eat cafeteria food!

Re:No replacement for Nutria

[yarbo]

Ratcatching? Think bigger, ratfarming!

Re:No replacement for Nutria

[lobsterGun]

I was just thinking that!

"Guinea pig"

[Artemis3]

They have been doing that [wikipedia.org] in Peru for centuries...

Re:No replacement for Nutria

[DjReagan]

Well it's certainly not made out of vegetables.

"Discovered"?

[Dachannien]

I think the "discovered" used here was in the sense of the old Han Solo line, "What an incredible new smell you've discovered!" As in, everybody stationed on board the Death Star knew the smell was there, but they had the good sense not to go rooting around through it.

No problem!

[pyrrhonist]

A little D-Con should take care of it!

What?! They want to conserve this species? Oh.

Nevermind.

Good News for O'Reilly

[Anonymous Coward]

We were just running out of book cover animals.

Why humans rule...

[cfalcon]

We find a new species, and WE ARE ALREADY EATING IT.

"What do you know about this rodent?"
"Very little, we don't yet know where it diverged from modern rodentia. It is, however, *excellent* over rice."

Laos ?

[tinrobot]

I thought all the rats moved to Washington.

Re:Laos ?

[tinrobot]

Not all politicians are lawyers.

Kha-Nyou translation

[Afrosheen]

This just in! Kha-Nyou is, in the local language, literally translated as 'delicious snack'. Man, what the people in that corner of the world won't eat with some peppers mixed in.

Re:Kha-Nyou translation

[Afrosheen]

My point is that it was a joke and the mods didn't get it. Surprise surprise.

My wife is Thai, so I know a little about what that part of the planet eats. I've been known to eat frog, turtle, alligator and snake on occasion, and something like this isn't too shocking.

NY Times article

[zaguar]

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/12/science/12rodent .html [nytimes.com]

The NY Times article about this.

Local farmers and hunters trapped or snared the animals, which they also referred to as rock rats, slaughtered them and took them to market

A species that no western scientist has ever seen, and the locals are trying as hard as they can to make them extinct. It seems to be a common theme in history. Is this the future of mankind on earth?

ROUS's?

[mattOzan]

are they of unusual size? I didn't think they existed...Aargh!

Who discovered?

[Hao Wu]

The animal has long whiskers, stubby legs and a tail covered in dense hair and was on sale in a hunters' market ... Known by locals as Kha-Nyou, the rodent is said to be a nocturnal vegetarian that prefers the cover of the forest ... "It was for sale on a table next to some vegetables," said Dr Timmins. "I knew immediately it was something I had never seen before."

Headline should read: "Pompous university jerk buys what working class already found."

MOD PARENTS DOWN!

[johansalk]

What idiot modded your post insightful??!! that was the most idiotic thing I read today; Just because you can munch and swallow doesn't make you an expert in the scientific field of nutrition. Likewise, just because you caught a rodent and put it on sale doesn't make you an expert contributor to the scienfific classification of species.

Re:Who discovered?

[hyfe]

Headline should read: "Pompous university jerk buys what working class already found."

Kinda like someone discovering a continent where there's already living shitloads of people yeah? (and most likely was 'discovered' by vikings earlier anyways)

Either way, anti-intellectualism is bad okay? There is a difference between a small bunch of locals knowing about something and it being part of the general biological knowledge. Now, the knowledge will be part of what people study, and will be preserved.

I mean, how much of what you know and learn do you think you were the first to find out? Learning is next to always about learning from somebody (often by proxy though), and what markes out a discovery is the first person to discover the signifance of the knowledge.

Re:Who discovered?

[owlstead]

For another analogy, Newton could not have discovered gravity because everyone was already using it. Same for E=MC^2 of course. I find that the discovery of a continent is another thing however. One should notice that it was only a discovery for the people on the other continents, at a specific point in time.

The rodent in itself isn't much of a discovery. But the fact that it needs to be classified in such a specific way certainly is, as I presume that the locals didn't know this for a fact. They are - in

Re:Who discovered?

[Jesus_666]

Didn't scientists find hints that before the Siberians came there were people who closely resembled native Australians?

for a second....

[mangus_angus]

I thought the RIAA and MPAA had cross bred some evil little thing...

What a load of hype

[Anonymous Coward]

I've seen pictures. Its just a normal mouse with a scrollwheel...

Lawyers, people!

[philovivero]

This story has been sitting here for HOURS already, and no-one's made any good lawyer joke postings rated +5 funny, yet? Come on people? Where are your priorities?!?!

It's Friday night in California! The weather's beautiful! Get in front of your terminals and start making those lawyer jokes. Slashdot was built for my entertainment, and you're not coming through.

OK, just because it's on for the last time

[Marko DeBeeste]

In best Shatner tone: KHHAAAA---------N

"Discovered"?

[giminy]

The creature known as Kha-Nyou to the locals is so unique it represents an entire new family of wildlife.

How exactly does this guy get credit for discovering a species when the locals have obviously known about it for long enough to give it a name? Shouldn't they be given the credit for "discovering" it?

Re:"Discovered"?

[vhogemann]

NOT discovered the animail, but discovered what the animal is.

He identified the animal, and classified it according to the scientific standarts. Before it was just a furball that looked like a rat, it could be a marsupial, monotremae, rodent, mustelidae, or any other. But now we know that is a rodent, and member of an entirely new family.

What a cutie...

[bytor4232]

This is one cute little critter. Too cute. I'm sure it will wind up in exotic pet shops soon.

Re:

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Bah!

[Pope Raymond Lama]

It is only another rat, from the drawing. I was expecting something really different and scary [yahoo.com].

Doubt It

[ignipotentis]

"To find something so distinct in this day and age is just extraordinary. For all we know, this could be the last remaining mammal family left to be discovered," Dr Timmins said. ... I doubt it. Why do we think we know everything?

It looks like a rat

[Che Guevarra]

Did anyone else think that a "Totally new species" might be a little more exciting looking? This thing is a rat. Does it atleast not taste like chicken?

Re:yawn

[Concerned Onlooker]

Read this on Drudge about two days ago...try to keep up next time, Slashdot.

No, no. This one is about Drudge.

Re:Amazing...

[poopdeville]

Because not every would-be scientist wants to become a biologist.

Re:Amazing...

[1u3hr]

And why are we exploring the stars if we can't even find rodent's on earth?

We're exploring the stars? Unless you mean Janet Jackson; no, we're a long, long way from doing that. And do you really think a team of astronomers would be effective at seaching through Lao markets for new rodents?

Re:It's not new, just new to these guys.

[kfg]

You're the sort of guy who's going to cause trouble when I discover your house, aren't you?

KFG

...and everyone else in the world

[fireboy1919]

It's local. The local community hasn't gone to other parts of the world and become experts in mammal taxonomy so that they could come back and say "hey, this rodent is different from all of the others!"

If they had, they surely would have gotten credit for it. Further, I'm sure that any taxonomist from the East would have gotten the credit had they discovered it.

Further, how do you expect the scientists to "ask around?" Randomly enter countries and say "hey, do you have any species that are unlike any o

Re:They naed it Darlus McBridus

[ramblin billy]

Yeah. The one at the 'hunters market' was the last female. Fur traders are offering 10 beads, 2 pocket mirrors, and a snickers bar for the last male. Paris Hilton wants a new case for her ipod.

billy - anyone seen any baby seals?

Re:can you sink any lower?

[kfg]

It's disturbing enough that there are people out there eating rodents.

North American rodents quite commonly found on someone's dinner table include, porcupine, squirrel, woodchuck, prarie dog, marmot, and yes, beaver (he, he!)

Just because you can't find it wrapped in plastic and the Grand Union or Piggly Wiggly don't mean it ain't damn good eatin'.

I suppose you're going to get really weirded out when I mention that there are huge swaths of the US where a good cicada "hatch" is considered a bit of a tasty holiday time.

KFG

Re:can you sink any lower?

[Reene]

I'm sure you can name the genus and species of every creature you shove into your mouth, keeping in mind the variety of rodents and insects you ingest with your fruit and vegetable products.

Unless you've actually tried rodent meat, you really have no place judging people for eating it. What would you do if a Hindu person popped in here and started berating Americans for eating beef and using cow products? At least in their case it's a religious issue.

Re:can you sink any lower?

[Old Wolf]

They're all varieties of Palatablus Withketchupii

Re:china

[ketamine-bp]

more accurately, in china, the saying is "if its belly face downwards, its edible"

Re:china

[kjoonlee]

I think it's more like, "We eat everything with four legs, except chairs and tables. We eat everything with wings, except airplanes and helicopters."

You mean there are people north of North

[MichaelPenne]

Dakota?

You may have something there, I'd suggest you publish!

Re:discoveries, eh?

[oneiron]

To discover is to reveal to the modern scientific pool of thought...

Re:rat ...

[flynns]

Or, as might be said...

who gives a rat's ass?

Re:Discovered?

[Afrosheen]

It's not a discovery for humanity, like meeting with aliens or finding another moon around Saturn, but a discovery for the scientific community at large.

I can imagine something like this would be very exciting, considering that nearly all mammals, rodents and other large creatures are already filed away. Insects, bacteria, and deep sea life are still being discovered, but something this large is very unusual.

Re:So what does it taste like?

[SEWilco]

It must taste good enough that some brave hunter had it for sale at the market.