mallumax writes "The BBC reports that Pittsburgh University scientists have succeeded in creating a robotic arm, controlled by probes inserted into the brain of monkeys. The probes interpret signals from individual nerve cells in the motor cortex. Monkeys were able to grasp and hold food with the robotic arm. Since the number of nerve signals for even small movements is huge the scientists used an averaging algorithm to obtain the movement signals."
That's not the impression I got. It seems more like the monkey was moving the tool as if it were it's own limb, i.e. the moneky tried to move its hand and the tool moved instead. If this is the case, all it shows is that monkeys can control their own limbs.
Uhhh, except that some monkey do have opposable thumbs, so it can't be the "only" thing. Read the faq (number 23): http://www.primates.com/faq/index.html [primates.com]
I would think that there is plenty of non-robotic evidence that monkeys use and make simple tools, are skilled and knowledgable in their use and pass tool knowledge from individual to individual already in the wild. Monkeys have been trained to operate tools and devices before this, both in and out of laboratory settings.
I wouldn't consider this a breakthrough or in any way revealing about monkeys, I would consider it more of a robotic/hapic/man-machine interface breakthrough.
This is actually more like using an existing arm rather than learning to use a tool. We all had to go through a process of learning to use our own arms when we were babies. Our neurons carry the signals from our brains to our muscles and the muscles react according to the signal. We unconsciously figured out during our infancy what signals made our muscles do particular movements. In this case, the neurons interface with tiny electrodes that pick up the signals and a computer translates them into instructio
"The inventors believe it could help people who have lost limb function through disease or trauma." Why are all these types of enhancements framed in terms of the disabled? We are disabled. Why must we hunger, breath air, thirst, sleep? I wonder if these researchers are just giving the public this. Can they see the obvious leap to transhumanism?
Besides the obvious addition of extra limbs a la Doc Oc from Spiderman, imagine what it would be like if everyday people had loads of mechanical limbs.
As if drivers on cell phones werent bad enough. Now people can drive, talk on the phone, type something on their laptop, eat, and read the newspaper at the same time.
I'm guessing that the brain only can handle two arms. You could have an extra limb, but it would perfectly mimic either the left or the right arm.
Or your left or right leg, or maybe the arm could mimic one of your fingers. But I don't think that you can have a robotic limb which which is completely independend from all your existing limbs.
Maybe if you got the robotic limb when you were a baby.
Is there such thing as an obligatory Sealab 2021 quote yet?
News Anchor: Scientists have successfully transplanted little Jango's brain into a robot monkey body. on a sad note, however, Jambo died late last night after drinking his own urine.
Sparks: Hey, Skip. What do you think about all this robot stuff?
Murphy: Why? Are we under attack?!
Sparks: No..but that robot monkey on the news..
Murphy: You're kidding! That guy's a robot monkey?
This work is *OLD*. Take a look at the Boston Arm for examples of why it doesn't work well. The electrodes cannot yet be permanently linked to small enough numbers of neurons to prevent huge amounts of signal noise, and you get a minimum of half a second of phase delay in the control systems to average out the noise. And the smaller you make the electrodes, the higher the impedance of the electrode, which also reduces your available signal level and potentially lowers your signal/noise.
That raises the question "is animal reseach acceptable if it benefits a larger number of humans?", which is a debate beyond the scope of this article, in my opinion. There's no indication that any animals were harmed in the process, and there's no mention whether there is any lasting damage, or if the proceedure is reversable. But, if I were going to use the technology, I personally would like the answers to those questions beforehand.
The tricky thing with that question is that the research cannot be known to benefit humans until the decision to harm the monkeys is alredy made. If a technique was KNOWN to work, it wouldn't be necessary to test it on monkeys. The way research works, it tends to fail more often than it succeeds (that's normal), and so there are many cases where the monkey harm had no human benefit. Short-sighted people can look at those individual cases and try to make the argument that in those cases it was wrong. But
I've toured several labs and met several animals used in neuroscience research--owls, rats, cats, monkeys, bats, etc. I've never got the impression that they experienced a substantial amount of pain. They all seemed perfectly normal except for the odd bit of metal sticking out of their heads.
This kind of research takes a lot of time investment in individual animals--training takes a lot of one-on-one involvement, and scientists are no less likely than anyone else to form bonds with creatures they care for.
This is all well and good until some scientist accidentally fuzes 4 arms to himself and goes mad, rampaging through the city and hatching evil plots...
I'm still trying to figure out if they're talking about the University of Pittsburgh, which has a rather well-known medical program, or Carnegie Mellon University (which would be a Pittsburgh University) which is world famous for its robotics program. Anyone? Bueller?
Could tissue growth be suppressed locally, maybe by having a supply of some anti-growth factor dispensed from the (possibly porous) probes? It would still have to be replenished; but undesirable side effects (suppressing tissue growth elsewhere) could be eliminated or mitigated and the probes could last much longer.
Holy shit! We're giving those evil little fuckers cyborg capabilities to go with their brains, opposable thumbs, and tails?!!
NASA wants us all dead! NASA sent up monkeys - are they all accounted for? NASA sent up robots - where are they now? We can defeat the monkeys. We can defeat the robots. But NOT AT THE SAME TIME!
So when this tech matures will they be able to attatch a 3rd arm to my back so i can scratch my ass without distracting me from other activities.
cool, but where would i buy shirts?
we can teach them to type!
This will do wonders for the quality of discussion on Slashdot. CmdrTaco, if your reading this, please give extra mod points to non-human/.ers.
The above link has neat videos [pitt.edu] of the monkey moving the arm around.
Researchers like Schwartz who record from motor areas of the brain do cool stuff, but I'm personally more interested in folks like the Andersen Lab [caltech.edu] who do recording from more goal-oriented areas. Basically, it's a difference between a command to "move my elbow this much" versus "I want to grab this object."
Here's a PDF link [google.com] to a paper published by Schwartz and others in 2002. Here's the abstract:
Direct Cortical Control of 3D Neuroprosthetic Devices
Dawn M. Taylor, Stephen I. Helms Tillery, Andrew B. Schwartz
Three-dimensional (3D) movement of neuroprosthetic devices can be controlled by the activity of cortical neurons when appropriate algorithms are used to decode intended movement in real time. Previous studies assumed that neurons maintain fixed tuning properties, and the studies used subjects who were unaware of the movements predicted by their recorded units. In this study, subjects had real-time visual feedback of their brain-controlled trajectories. Cell tuning properties changed when used for brain-controlled movements. By using control algorithms that track these changes, subjects made long sequences of 3D movements using far fewer cortical units than expected. Daily practice improved movement accuracy and the directional tuning of these units.
I'd be more concerned about the algorithm they use. Due to the large amount of messages, most are scrapped and only the seemingly 'important' ones are saved. I'd want to make sure that the algorithm is actually effective before trying out this technology, or I'd like an explaination as to how they sort unimportant signals from important ones. Otherwise, the movements of the tool may not relate to what the user actually intended.
That's not my hand on your ass (Score:5, Funny)
That's not my ass! (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Tool use? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Tool use? (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
Re:Tool use? (Score:4, Informative)
http://www.primates.com/faq/index.html [primates.com]
Parent
It's being used (Score:3)
No, the tool is the arm. (Score:2, Informative)
Re:No, the tool is the arm. (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Tool use? (Score:2)
That is some high-tech-poo-flinging right there.
Re:Tool use? (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Birds Make and Use Tools (Score:5, Interesting)
A quick search on google turns up an entire site devoted to tool use in birds [tufts.edu].
Parent
Re:Tool use? (Score:2)
Indeed it would, and the implications are frightening. Imagine steroid-enhanced cyborg chimpanzee super-soldiers high on crystal meth.
Try dangling a bunch of bananas in front of that cage.
Re:Tool use? (Score:3, Funny)
"Run! They've mastered tool use!"
Re:Tool use? (Score:3, Funny)
Though we'll need to modify the title a bit and put them into space.
In the end, I have to say it...
I for one, welcome our new Mecha-Monkey Marine Overlords.
Ye Gads! That's the title...
Re:Tool use? (Score:3, Informative)
no, it's a sign... (Score:3, Funny)
We are disabled already. (Score:2, Interesting)
We're doomed (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:We're doomed (Score:3, Interesting)
Or your left or right leg, or maybe the arm could mimic one of your fingers. But I don't think that you can have a robotic limb which which is completely independend from all your existing limbs.
Maybe if you got the robotic limb when you were a baby.
Great News! (Score:2)
Nipple Fettish (Score:5, Funny)
Sealab quote (Score:5, Funny)
News Anchor: Scientists have successfully transplanted little Jango's brain into a robot monkey body. on a sad note, however, Jambo died late last night after drinking his own urine.
Sparks: Hey, Skip. What do you think about all this robot stuff?
Murphy: Why? Are we under attack?!
Sparks: No..but that robot monkey on the news..
Murphy: You're kidding! That guy's a robot monkey?
University of Pittsburgh NOT Pittsburgh University (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.cnbc.cmu.edu/faculty/schwartz.s
It seems he does joint work with CMU but his official position is at UPitt(as we sometimes call it).
Re:University of Pittsburgh NOT Pittsburgh Univers (Score:2, Informative)
Mechanical arms read
That's great... (Score:2)
Acceptable question now... (Score:3, Insightful)
"Should we really be attaching electronics to monkey neurons?"
Re:Acceptable question now... (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Acceptable question now... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Acceptable question now... (Score:3, Insightful)
This kind of research takes a lot of time investment in individual animals--training takes a lot of one-on-one involvement, and scientists are no less likely than anyone else to form bonds with creatures they care for.
Implications (Score:2)
oh the horror.
Let the robotic poo-flinging begin (Score:2, Funny)
Thanks to this robotic arm... (Score:3, Funny)
Remember the last time (Score:2, Funny)
Pittsburgh University? (Score:2)
Wired has a better story (Score:4, Informative)
Interference from tissue growth (Score:2)
I imagine it can hurl (Score:5, Funny)
Evil monkey-robots?!! (Score:2)
NASA wants us all dead! NASA sent up monkeys - are they all accounted for? NASA sent up robots - where are they now? We can defeat the monkeys. We can defeat the robots. But NOT AT THE SAME TIME!
Graft (Score:2, Funny)
Now we can make new arms for monkeys... (Score:5, Funny)
This will do wonders for the quality of discussion on Slashdot. CmdrTaco, if your reading this, please give extra mod points to non-human
at Pittsburgh University... (Score:2)
-m
DUPE (Score:2)
Old adage proven true (Score:5, Funny)
This will no doubt limit the adoption of monkey cyborgs in RTOS and embedded spaces, and proves the old adage, "Always mount a scratch monkey".
And... (Score:5, Funny)
"Developers, developers, developers!!!!"
Re:And... (Score:4, Funny)
"Developers, developers, developers!!!!"
When given a typewriter it wrote the entire works of Shakespeare.
Parent
Reverse would be better (Score:3, Funny)
Links and more info (Score:3, Informative)
The actual web site for Schwartz's lab:
http://motorlab.neurobio.pitt.edu/ [pitt.edu]
The above link has neat videos [pitt.edu] of the monkey moving the arm around.
Researchers like Schwartz who record from motor areas of the brain do cool stuff, but I'm personally more interested in folks like the Andersen Lab [caltech.edu] who do recording from more goal-oriented areas. Basically, it's a difference between a command to "move my elbow this much" versus "I want to grab this object."
Here's a PDF link [google.com] to a paper published by Schwartz and others in 2002. Here's the abstract:
Direct Cortical Control of 3D Neuroprosthetic Devices
Dawn M. Taylor, Stephen I. Helms Tillery, Andrew B. Schwartz
Three-dimensional (3D) movement of neuroprosthetic devices can be controlled by the activity of cortical neurons when appropriate algorithms are used to decode intended movement in real time. Previous studies assumed that neurons maintain fixed tuning properties, and the studies used subjects who were unaware of the movements predicted by their recorded units. In this study, subjects had real-time visual feedback of their brain-controlled trajectories. Cell tuning properties changed when used for brain-controlled movements. By using control algorithms that track these changes, subjects made long sequences of 3D movements using far fewer cortical units than expected. Daily practice improved movement accuracy and the directional tuning of these units.
Re:And for the next version... (Score:5, Funny)
"Our biggest problem is durability of the probes. Typically they last for about six months."
I'd say a bigger problem is that to make this work, you have to stick friggin' needles into the brain!
How about some sort of non-invasive sensor cap as the "next step."
Parent
Re:And for the next version... (Score:2)
Re:This is just wrong! (Score:3, Funny)
Monkey-controlled robots kill people.