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Saturn V Preservation Efforts 215
PizzaFace writes "Saturn V: The rocket that took man to the moon remains a totem of its time and a magnificent memento of youthful superpower. Yet Slashdot reported a year ago on the neglect suffered by the Saturn V rockets that were not launched into space. Some progress is being made toward preserving these awesome vehicles. The Kennedy Space Center has already brought its Saturn in from the rain; Houston and Huntsville are putting shelters up this year and working on funding for restoration and more permanent indoor exhibits. These gigantic masterpieces of 20th century engineering deserve a visit - maybe a pilgrimage."
Private Funding? (Score:2, Interesting)
Seems like it would be good for a company to donate money to help store these things. The Pepsi Saturn V storage facility, or something along those lines.
Re:Private Funding? (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Private Funding? (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Private Funding? (Score:2, Informative)
Re the funding, they're floating a loan, NASA's kicking in part of the gate from the Canaveral visitor's center, they're selling vanity license plates and some other stuff.
I'm sure I missed something, but that's the caffeine deprivation talking.
Re:Private Funding? (Score:3, Informative)
Saturns (Score:4, Informative)
To those making the pilgrimage, a trip to Space Center, adjacent to the Johnson Space Center complex is also an absolute must do, especially if you have offspring.
Re:Saturns (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Saturns (Score:3, Insightful)
"Why did you turn these amazing machines into lawn ornaments?" might have been a good question to ask. I've never understood the politics of that.
Re:Saturns (Score:2)
Re:Saturns (Score:5, Informative)
Modern? It's a scaled up V2.
Yeah, and a fax machine is just a waffle iron with a phone attached. The V2 was a single-chambered, single stage rocket fueled by alcohol and LOX, with a mechanical guidance system that was essentially just sophisticated clockwork and gyros adjusting tiny fins in the exhaust stream. The Saturn V was multi staged, multi engined, fueled by kerosene and LOX in stage one and two, and hydrogen and LOX after that. It was computer guided by gimballing the engines themselves on movable mounts. Other than the obvious similarity in that they're both rockets and that the project leader for both was Wehrner von Braun, they are completely different animals.
Re:Saturns (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Saturns (Score:2)
You're right. I meant to word it the other way 'round. RP-1 (kerosene) and LOX into five F-1 engines for stage 1, liquid hydrogen and LOX in stage 2 and 3 into five and one J-2 engines, respectively.
Re:Saturns (Score:4, Informative)
Don't you mean... (Score:2)
Don't you mean "point it and light it"?
Maybe that's why they lost the war!
Re:Saturns (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Saturns (Score:2)
Oh yes, and Goddard stole everything from Tsiolkovsky and the chinese. This is called evolutionary development, or science.
Re:Saturns (Score:2)
If you take a look at the guidance vane system that Goddard used and the one on the V2 they are so close it is scary. Yes it could have been parallel development but the closeness in time and the comment from von Braun make me wonder.
Re:Saturns (Score:2)
It is not about building something, but about the theory. Tsiolkovsky developed the basic theory of rocket flight and probably both Goddard and von Braun read all of his work.
If you take a look at the guidance vane system that Goddard used and the one on the V2 they are so close it is scary. Yes it could have been parallel development but the closeness in time and the comment from von Braun make me wonder
Honestly, I se
Re:Saturns (Score:3, Informative)
No, actually it used some quite sophisticated analog computer (analog electronic feedback loop) to control the fins. There are some papers about this on the net, and believe me - an average EE can not design this after his analog control systems class.
The system was designed by the same guy, Helmut Hoelzer, that was later head of the nasa computing center. Go figure..
Re:Saturns (Score:2)
No, actually it used some quite sophisticated analog computer (analog electronic feedback loop) to control the fins. There are some papers about this on the net, and believe me - an average EE can not design this after his analog control systems class.
The system was designed by the same guy, Helmut Hoelzer, that was later head of the nasa computing center. Go figure..
Re:Saturns (Score:2)
They take you in a smaller bus with a more knowledgeable guide to the Apollo, Gemini, and Mercury pads as well as some of the Air Force facilities.
Don't forget the box they came in (Score:2)
The Vehicle Assembly Building is a sight too. I took the standard tour, and as the bus approached the building, the scale played tricks on my mind. I saw what looked like an ordinary cubish building not far ahead, and I figured we'd get there in half a minute. But the bus kept going, and going, and the building got bigger and bigger. The thing is freakin' huge! It was built to hold 4 Saturns fully assembled. The U.N. building could fit through each of its 4 doo
Re:Saturns (Score:3, Insightful)
Absolutely right!
But lordygawdamighty, you shouldda seen them babies FLY!
Re:Saturns (Score:2)
Re:Proper word usage (Score:2)
Pilgrimage Indeed!! (Score:2)
I saw the one in Houston last year. In one of those very fortunate coincidences, just as I had walked from the top to the engines, and was wondering about the function of various features of the engines, a friend of mine who happens to work as an aerospace engineer called my cell phone. I had a great little mini-tour, "asking what about this thing?", and hearing about what it was and why it worked -- and some of it was just astonishing -- the critical pressures, for
Saturn's legacy may rise again (Score:2)
Awesome (Score:3, Informative)
Size matters (Score:5, Interesting)
What strikes most people who stand next to it is how *big* it is. Yes it is big on the scale of a human. Maybe I'm weird, but what struck me was how *small* it is. It can go to the Moon and come back, yet it's smaller than a freight train.
Re:Size matters (Score:3, Insightful)
It makes you wonder whatever happened to solving aerospace problems with brute force.
Re:Size matters (Score:5, Interesting)
If you look carefully, you can compare those photos to the ones I took in 2000 [kaszeta.org], and can see the increase in decay.
Re:Size matters (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Size matters (Score:2)
Also, I believe the only SIII Stage ever in Earth orbit was Skylab. The third stage was responsible for TLI and ended up in a solar orbit or was crashed onto the lunar surface to help with lunar seismology.
Re:Size matters (Score:2)
Re:Size matters (Score:2)
Of course, now they're tearing down the building to expand a shopping mall (thank you so much Westfield). I hope they move the F-1 to the new Rocketdyne site.
Re:Size matters (Score:2)
NASA turning into a museum? (Score:2, Interesting)
Admittedly, preserving the Saturn is worthwhile, but how about you keep the general public excited about space by doing something new, instead of putting the past into prettier showcases?
Re:NASA turning into a museum? (Score:2, Interesting)
continue to put[ting] the past into prettier showcases, there will be nothing to remember it by, and nothing to enthuse people in the future apart from photographs and fallible memories.
Steve
Saturn V is good but we can build bigger (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Saturn V is good but we can build bigger (Score:2, Funny)
How do these compare with the Estes D motors I use?
Re:Saturn V is good but we can build bigger (Score:4, Funny)
Pretty sure they're somewhat larger...
Re:Saturn V is good but we can build bigger (Score:2)
(304.8 pound-seconds/lb of fuel) *4.44 = 1353 Ns/lb fuel
4492 lbs of fuel for the entire first stage / 5 engines = 898lb/engine
1353 Ns/lb * 898 lb/engine = 1,215,000 Ns/engine
Re:Saturn V is good but we can build bigger (Score:2)
Re:Saturn V is good but we can build bigger (Score:2)
Re:Saturn V is good but we can build bigger (Score:4, Informative)
Nova -A Specifications.
he Nova was to be our Manned Mars exploration lifting body. It would be powerful enough to lift the "landing party" and ALL of their supporting equipment, out of the Terrestrial gravity well. One must remember that at this point in time, rockets were blowing up with apalling frequency on or near the launch site, so designing these spacecraft took an incredible leap of faith. In most cases, these designs are based on then-existing technologies, such as the F-1 liquid-fueled rocket engine, or the J-2 second stage liquid fueled rocket engine. Some avant guarde technology was envisioned, though - note solid-rocket boosters on some of the larger NASA design variants of the Nova.
Also notable is the presence of several nuclear powered rockets. Nuclear power for rocket design was abandoned because it was felt that technology would not support the development of such a craft until certain base technologies became viable. The primary technology necessary was related to the development of a safe containment capability that would house the nuclear reactor and requisite material, and keep it safe from ANY damage imaginable - and some of the unimaginable ! Such technology is still beyond our capabilities.
Note the Aerospike design at the very bottom image - Martin Marietta Advanced Designs - anotated R10R-2, with 424 K thrust. The aerospike is a timeless design that gets dusted off and retried every time the technologies are deemed to have advanced sufficiently far enough. Does it look familiar ? Like the inlet to a high-speed jet engine (ala SR-71) ? The aerospike had its contibutions to both technologies !
Nova - Project Overview [fortunecity.com]
Keep your eye on the ball, here (Score:5, Insightful)
Where I once came to work next to a giant reminder of NASA's past accomplishments (or rather, left for lunch by it, as I usually come in via the back gate), now I only see a big, white, ugly building. Where once tourists could stand back in awe as they took in the rocket's size, now they have to peer through windows at it.
A permanent building housing our Saturn V will surely protect it better from the elements... but it wrecks the whole reason for having it there in the first place.
A better preservation program would have three steps:
1. Commit the money needed to re-paint it once every 10 years.
2. Inspect it once a year for structural problems; repair those as they arise.
3. Do something worth doing and go someplace worth going, so that our most impressive accomplishment is not a 30 year old rocket.
Re:Keep your eye on the ball, here (Score:2)
I'm glad they're taking efforts to keep it up--for a while it was in pretty bad shape, with visible mold and cracks running down the paint--but it should be on display, in the open. It's the first thing you notice as you drive past the Johnson Space Center, and it never fails to draw a gasp from any out-of-town guests
Re:Keep your eye on the ball, here (Score:2)
I absolutely hate the horrendous structure they've erected around the rocket.
For those who haven't seen it, the thing looks like a massive white corrugated metal shed. Tiny little windows, no features, just a huge white cheap looking building.
I hope to God that this is temporary while they fix it up. I heard they needed to dry it out before working on it, so I'm hoping this was just a quick way to enclose it.
I hate how it looks. It's terrible.
Re:Keep your eye on the ball, here (Score:2, Insightful)
Agreed the Saturn V would be most impressive as an outdoor exhibit.
However, Florida is not an ideal location, especially not the Florida coast. The salt air, combined with high tempatures and humidity, make for a very corrosive environment. The time and effort required to properly maintain a metal structure as large as the Saturn V would quickly exceed the investment KSC made enclosing the rocket in a building where humidity and temperature can be controlled.
A much better location for an outdoor exhib
Re:Keep your eye on the ball, here (Score:2)
They were talking about the one in Houston, at Johnson Space Center.
Re:Keep your eye on the ball, here (Score:2)
That said, when someone is talking about the rockets in Houston, and someone else begins talking about Florida's climate, the only rational thing to do is point out that Houston is in America's soft oily underbelly, not its wang.
Re:Keep your eye on the ball, here (Score:2)
Totally agree with you about Houston, and the Texas Gulf Coast is 500 miles of sucky beach. But Texas isn't a TOTAL loss.
Re:Keep your eye on the ball, here (Score:2)
(Besides which, if I'm going to travel 800 miles, I'd just as soon go to NYC and have fun there, or out to the Badlands which are also amazing landscapes.)
Re:Keep your eye on the ball, here (Score:2)
If it makes you feel any better, I refuse to enter Las Vegas too. I'm not normal, and I do acknowledge this. I like Chicago. I like NYC. I like Detroit and SF. Give me cold cities with rain and snow any day.
Re:Keep your eye on the ball, here (Score:2)
I agree - and so have all my coworkers who have commented on Rocket Park. The only savings grace is that I've heard the building being referred to as "temporary". So one can only
Re:Keep your eye on the ball, here (Score:2)
Yes - Apollo hardware went to those missions. However, there was still hardware remaining. Some historical displays are even made of repurposed / modified Apollo hardware created as backup flight hardware for Skylab (for example). Some displays are actually testing hardware. And some displays are origional Apollo mission fight hardware. JSC's display consists of mismatched hardware intended for the last 3 Apollo mi
Re:Keep your eye on the ball, here (Score:2)
Re:Keep your eye on the ball, here (Score:2)
The one at KSC is quite nice, and serves as a major exhibit on the tour. This looks like an extra large shack.
I hate it hate it hate it hate it.
Who do I have to write about this?
It's times like these that I wish I paid attention in government class so I'd know if I had a senator or house of commons representative or something I could write to.
When they'll put on display the Saturn V... (Score:2, Funny)
What about the tech ? (Score:3, Insightful)
But standing still its just a great big tube. Having seen the one at Kennedy, its just not that impressive as a static thing. When it was running then sure, what a beast.
But what about the tech that REALLY got man to the moon. Saturn V is just a big WWII rocket, the thing that made the difference was the IBM computing "power" that directed the thing.
I'd love to see the old mission control re-built with the original style technology, and simulate the information going into it. Imagine a school trip where you had to solve the same problem as for Apollo 13, or making the error over-ride decision of Apollo 11.
It wouldn't even really matter if it was just running on one PC behind the scene as long as you got the experience of how limited the power was.
Firing a rocket is grease monkey impressive. Getting it to hit the moon is the achievement.
Re:What about the tech ? (Score:2)
Saturn's stages (Score:3, Informative)
But what about the tech that REALLY got man to the moon. Saturn V is just a big WWII rocket, the thing that made the difference was the IBM computing "power" that directed the thing.
You might say the the monster SIC stage was of WWII vintage, though the F1 engines were gigantic and employed innovative turbomachinery and cooling. It was designed by Von Braun's V2 team. The SII and SIVB H2/O2 stages were truly revolutionary. They are the main reason why the Saturn V had such a huge payload mass fractio
Re:What about the tech ? (Score:2)
No, the Redstone used early in the Mercury program was just a big WW2 rocket. The multistage Saturn V is a very different animal
No. They Don't (Score:2, Insightful)
bkd
Ah, that german engineering.... (Score:2, Funny)
Sad comments on our society... (Score:3, Interesting)
Second, we're so short sited that we cannot see the value protecting our own history.
Re:Sad comments on our society... (Score:5, Funny)
That's just because NASA failed to order the correct equipment for the mission. These Saturn Vs are the standard spaceflight edition made out of flimsy aluminum sheets.
For archival applications, they really should have ordered the special National Monument Edition Saturn V model. These are constructed entirely out of inch-thick solid bronze, and are designed to withstand centuries of exposure to the elements.
Re:Sad comments on our society... (Score:2)
Re:Sad comments on our society... (Score:2)
That's just because NASA failed to order the correct equipment for the mission. These Saturn Vs are the standard spaceflight edition made out of flimsy aluminum sheets.
For archival applications, they really should have ordered the special National Monument Edition Saturn V model. These are constructed entirely out of inch-thick solid bronze, and are designed to withstand centuries of expo
Re:Sad comments on our society... (Score:2)
Re:Sad comments on our society... (Score:2)
I do take your point about the preservation of historical objects, though. OTOH, they're stepping up to it now... and diverting funds that could be used to do
Re:Sad comments on our society... (Score:2)
Re:Sad comments on our society... (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Sad comments on our society... (Score:2)
Re:Sad comments on our society... (Score:2)
Your pointing it out doesn't change anything. It doesn't affect my argument in anyway. And, despite what you think, it doesn't make you appear any more intelligent as it actually makes you appear
Photos of the Kennedy Exhibit (Score:4, Informative)
Here's some inglorious snaps of the Kennedy Space Center preservation of the Saturn V that I did back in the "bad old days" of using only a 3MP digital.
To say the least, it is an awesome job that they did. In Huntsville, there are two Saturn V's, albeit one erect, the other on it's side. Both are outside. I have photos of those too, and will put them on my site tonight. Check back if you are interested.
Re:Photos of the Kennedy Exhibit (Score:2)
Incidentally, Huntsville has a better rocket garden than Johnson and Kennedy put together. The only other place with stuff as interesting is at White San
Re:Photos of the Kennedy Exhibit (Score:2)
Another great space stop is the Smithsonian. Last time I saw some of the stuff there, it was on leaving the pad down at KSC. That and the 1903 Flyer make the trip to DC worth the time and money.
"...maybe a pilgrimage." (Score:2, Funny)
Two Saturn V's in Huntsville area ... (Score:3, Informative)
The other is actually at a state-owned rest stop on I-65, 20 or so miles north-west (as the crow flies) of Huntsville. It's at the welcome-center when crossing the Alabama/Tennessee border.
While the rocket on display at the USSRC may need restoration, the one at the rest-stop is in awful shape. Too bad the state is too cash-scrapped to even think about touching that one.
Because nothing says 'Deep South'... (Score:2)
The other is actually at a state-owned rest stop on I-65, 20 or so miles north-west (as the crow flies) of Huntsville. It's at the welcome-center when crossing the Alabama/Tennessee border.
Because nothing says 'Deep South' like NASA technology...
:-)
Re:Two Saturn V's in Huntsville area ... (Score:2)
Nice timing... (Score:4, Informative)
After being treated to a movie and a simulated launch on the real (not mock) Launch Control hardware, you get to walk through the door and take in this enormous machine. I must say, the craft is pristine. Aside from a tiny bit of rust on the Escape Tower, the paint and metal body is perfect. A big piece of history preserved the way it should be.
I would assume that future plans for the other Saturn Vs would be similar though I don't know the difference in annual visitors between the other two centers and if it would be worth it to do such a grandiose thing for 2 more of them.
Perhaps they could just truck the other 2 to Florida and expand the exhibit?
Anyway, I just want to say, if you're a geek on vacation in Florida, Kennedy Space Center is pretty killer and a must-see.
Naysayers (Score:5, Informative)
Since I have children, pilgrimages to the Orlando area once every couple of years has become requisite because of a certain multi-national entertainment conglomerate that happens to be very good at marketing to children. On a recent trip, I insisted that we all go to the Kennedy Space Center for a visit while we were there. Everybody was not too enthusastic about losing an entire day at the theme parks to drive an hour and a half to the coast just to see a "bigger airport".
Once we got there, it was amazing how people's opinions changed, but the biggest hit of the day was the multimedia presentation and tour of the indoor Saturn V rocket. I was skeptical myself as to how entertaining this portion of the visit would be, but it was by-far the best part of the KSC tour. The way they have this thing mounted allows you to walk under the rocket. Also, at each of the separation joints, they separated the components so you can see the machinery and technology that made the rocket work. It was like walking into the garage where they keep one of the baddest vehicles know to man and someone opens the hood for your inspection.
I highly recommend the bus tour of the Kennedy Space Center if you are remotely close to it. It is one of the best ways to gain insight of how those things actually flew. (Not to mention all the other cool things you'll see like the Shuttle Launch Facillity and the ISS Fabrication Facillity.) As far as preservation of the other Saturn Vs, if they are trying to build something similar to what is in KSC, then I'm all for it.
One-off remnants (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:One-off remnants (Score:4, Informative)
Fresno State (Score:3, Interesting)
Supposedly it was moved because it looked too much like a missile engine and missiles are for war, and that's bad.
I remember taking my girlfriend at the time who was a reporter for the campus newspaper to go see it. She had no idea it was even there. Yeah, she dug it -- shows that geeks really can attract girls
It was in pretty bad shape out in the elements at all, but it was impressive. I often wonder if it's still there a decade later, or if the weeds have clamed it.
Re:Fresno State (Score:2)
Huntsville and Usability (Score:2)
In addition to the Saturn V's (which still capture my imagination) a Space Shuttle from the early days was on site (not space worthy.) At the time, NASA was so underfunded that they actually took away parts of (and perhaps the entire) booster rocket from the shuttle exhibit. It seems that NASA had
Re:Huntsville and Usability (Score:2)
To their credit, they probably didn't just run it through the car wash and send it straight to the launch pad. Most of the shuttles have/had been stripped down to the frame and totally refitted more than once. Columbia, for example, had just recently come off such a total refurbishment when it disintegra
What it Takes (Score:3, Informative)
The same company is being tapped for the Huntsville Saturn V and I would imagine the one in Texas, also.
The Google cache of the first page (my poor little website can't afford a Slashdotting) can be found here [64.233.161.104] and the second page will load from my site, but at least I've cut my load in half.
People should read this.
And after you do, feel free to make a donation to help save [spacecamp.com] the Saturn V Werner von Braun left the U.S. Space & Rocket Center
Re:What it Takes (Score:2)
I was still half asleep when I wrote it!
Ah, the ye olde Saturn V (Score:3, Interesting)
That said, I know the dilapadated state that the one in Clear Lake (man, I'm giving away my location: most people don't know that Johnson is in Clear Lake, not Houston) is in, and I can imagine that the one in Huntsville isn't in much better shape. It's rather sad to see this magnificent device that could take three people to the moon and return them safely in such a state.
I mean, I grew up imagining myself in the command module of that thing, on a revived moon mission (granted, they'd probably update some of the computer controls, but the general design philosophy would be exactly what one would need to make the return...wonder if the Chineese have thought about that). I'd love for my kids to be able to do the same thing, assuming that I make the decision to reproduce.
Now, if only they'd re-open most of Johnson Space Center to the public. After Disney took over tourist management, it's really not the same there. I remember the coolness that was Building 2 on that campus. It used to be the visitor's center. I also remember being able to eat in the same cafeteria with the engineers and astronauts training for their next missions, being able to walk into the gallery in building 31A at will except during an hour window during launch, during which it was filled with press (that's Mission Control for those not in the know), and just watching the ground control while they were doing their jobs. It was quite amazing, honestly. As a young child, it fueled my imagination more than what the current setup can do.
The Mighty Saturn V (Score:2, Interesting)
Go, see! (Score:2)
Re:Yeah Baby! (Score:3, Informative)
A Day W/O Mickey: KSC Worth The Trip (Score:2)
Re:Yeah Baby! (Score:2)
National Museum of the United States Air Force [af.mil]
And this:
The National Museum of the United States Army [army.mil]
And this:
Welcome to the Naval Historical Center [navy.mil]
Re:Thery're worth the effort! (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Thery're worth the effort! (Score:2, Insightful)
I'm glad you weren't my parent.