US to Pay to go to ISS 636
forgotten_my_nick writes "According to BBC News, Russia has announced that it will no longer ferry US astronauts to space for free (It has been doing so for two years). From 2006 the US will be expected to pay."
detiorate (Score:0, Insightful)
Well then. (Score:0, Insightful)
International relations (Score:5, Insightful)
Hint to the current and future US Presidents: you may be the elected leader of a technological powerhouse, but you can't go it alone.
(it'll also pay for them to keep an eye out on Japan's technology, that the EU is becoming a collected economic force to bruise egos, and China's locomative-esque economy with about a third of the world's population, too, but who knows if they pay any attention)
Can you blame them? I can't. (Score:4, Insightful)
They pretty much have us by the jubbles and they know it. You vant an astronaut in space, comrade? Ve're your only real solution right now. Ve're going to take advantage of that. Can't say that I blame them. Ah, the capitalist spirit hits the Russian space program!
Re:Russia seems different since the school inciden (Score:2, Insightful)
The US lessened democracy right after 9/11 - VISITUS + PATRIOT Act anyone?
They regarded the Ukraine as problematic, and instead went to have military operations with China.
The US regarded Iraq as problematic and went into military operations with total disregard to international conventions and treatires.
Russia, the west isn't your enemy.
USA - The world is NOT your enemy!
Comment removed (Score:2, Insightful)
Get it over with... (Score:2, Insightful)
It'd make an awesome weapon platform. They could event rent it out to the Chinese to use as a stop-over on their way to the moon. Maybe even a step toward a Russian-Chinese joint-venture on an eventual moonbase.
The US no longer has any power in space, and Russia, true to its nature, is taking advantage of this.
Not surprising.
Re:In related news... (Score:1, Insightful)
And for the record, it's not really a bad thing that Russia is trying to recover some costs of shooting rockets into space. It's best to keep things fair, and by fair, I don't mean that Europeons and Russians are allowed to charge the USA for stuff, but not vice versa.
--
Sound out ``Europeons.'' I didn't make a typo.
Re:Implications (Score:3, Insightful)
For starters, the Russian boosters don't have to drag multi-ton wings into space. Wings that are useless in space.
BTM
How unbiased (Score:2, Insightful)
Like they own the world, Actulay they own nothing they have big debts which only grow.
I wonder how long it will take before the rest of the world start realizing this sceme.
I am hoping i will see that day.
And americans become again sane people.
show them the money (Score:2, Insightful)
I am in favor of paying them off for the lift. Heck, I'm surprised that we hadn't been so far.
In other news... (Score:2, Insightful)
Things are often offered with the understanding that they will only be lightly used. Once they become more heavily used, a different arrangement must be worked out. There is no clear division between the two, so the decision of transition is somewhat arbitrary.
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. If every decision involving other countries is interpreted as having a hidden meaning, how can countries ever get along?
Re:Ukraine (Score:2, Insightful)
While Mr. Yanukovich accused his pro-Western opponent of being an American stooge [smh.com.au], he himself is quite blatantly a Russian stooge. [telegraph.co.uk]
As for the impending bankruptcy of the US, you obviously don't understand how the trade deficit, the budget deficit, and the exchange rate work. Things won't be pretty, though it'll take longer than ten years for the situation to come to a head, but the US won't declare bankruptcy like Russia did in '98. Read this [economist.com] for a current analysis.
_International_ Space Station (Score:2, Insightful)
We deserve all the humiliation and more (Score:2, Insightful)
As a society that favors athletes and entertainers over people that contribute to society in real ways (other than mental masterbation) we deserve to have to pay a formerly communist country to condescend to take us to space. We have a country full of universties where teaching is for foriegners by foreigners, where we've dumbed down the curiculum so that anyone can go and keep going for as long as possible to enrich the university rather than the student. We encourage immoral, unproductive behavior and arograntly promote this attitude to the rest of the world. We worship money above all. We now sow what we've reaped.
Shame on us all........
Re:Ukraine (Score:3, Insightful)
You know how you go bankrupt when you're in lots of debt? That's because you can't find the money to pay it off. You know what the difference between you and a state is? Taxes.
If the US is finding itself having difficulty paying off its debts, it can raise taxes. Seeing as the US government can raises taxes as high as it wants, the chances of going bankrupt are just nil. US treasury bonds are the benchmark for risk-free returns on investment. That's saying a lot, and as far as I know, it hasn't changed in the past year.
If the US government ever goes bankrupt, I'd recommend you go find your old Y2K shelter, because the global economy would collapse instantly. It's obvious that you have no idea whatsoever how much the rest of the world relies on US Treasuries to hedge risk. This is not to mention the _catastrophic_ consquences on the US economy.
Even Congress is not so stupid. I guess Anonymous Cowards are.
-Erwos
Interesting how this coincides with the new tanks (Score:3, Insightful)
Now the pressure will start for resuming shuttle flights. At the same time the Russians say they'll charge money to ferry the astronauts.
Hmmm. I wonder when that phone call took place?
Re:In related news... (Score:2, Insightful)
Hit #1 [space.com]: 25 April 2002
Hit #2 [ucar.edu]: January 25, 2000
Hit #3 [rense.com]: September 27, 2002
Hit #4 [rednova.com]: November 24, 2003
I'm not even going to go further... Last time I checked, it was Deceber 2004...
Re:In related news... (Score:2, Insightful)
missing links (Score:3, Insightful)
these guys [scaled.com]
Kick in a bit of the cost, US. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Abandon this puppy (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:How unbiased (Score:3, Insightful)
I blame television. If you watch the major stations, you have to be insane. In the morning, you have Matt Lauer and Katie Couric pretending to be happy and nice to each other. Then the daytime television starts and it basically consists of people fighting with or cheating on each other. Apparently this daily banter is supposed to be drama. Then the early evening news comes and everything bad that happened to day is shown to you so fast you can't comprehend it. Primetime television starts with reality shows. This gets me the most. They present these people with no talent or morals are somehow special enough for our attention. Then late news comes which restates the earlier news. Then somewhere in this, people fall asleep hoping tomorrow won't be so empty.
Teenagers watching MTV get an even more twisted view of reality. Here, rap and pop stars are treated like gods when all they've really done is sold their name and fact to some record company. The worse the person, the more coverage they seem to get.
I don't watch this dribble on television, but I'm not saying I'm any better. We Americans have to recognize how these companies and politicians are mind fucking us all to buy their crap and promote the values they want us to have.
I think for a few weeks after 9/11, Americans got a little saner, but then things went back to the way they were. It's scary how hundreds of millions of people can live in the land of opportunity and just sit on their asses watching television while their country is being sold out right in front of them.
Sorry if that was off topic, but it seemed like a good time for a rant.
Re:Repaid already? (Score:1, Insightful)
A funny thing happens on the way to the table; your coke falls from the tray and is now all over the floor. You say to the homeless guy, "will you share your coke with me dude?" The homeless guy responds, "sure I will share, but I will charge you two bucks."
Re:WTG Russia. (Score:3, Insightful)
Why spend money taking wings up there? Why waste weight to make something "reusable"? Either make it so that it's useful up there, leave it up there for the solar smelter, or if it's necessary for the trip down for the astronaughts. Albative shielding is relativly cheap and easy to replace. It's also cheaper than the shuttle. Why have heavy wings and reusable engines? If the engines are worth recovering, could we get by putting a parachute system to recover the engines (using a light booster for the last stage) and not even haul them the whole way?
I know, alot of questions, but I think that they need to be examined.
Re:You were buying security, not spacecraft (Score:5, Insightful)
It was pretty obvious the U.S. has since lost "the right stuff" to do a space station. First sign
I think the "keeping Russian space scientists" employed was little more than saving face. In reality I think the U.S. and Boeing came to the conclusion that using the experienced Russian engineers was the only way to get actually get a working space station off the ground. They in fact paid them to build a Mir2 and it became the heart of ISS. The U.S. sure did love to rant that the Russian modules were behind schedule and over budget. Well this convieniently glosses over the fact that those were two of the most complex and challenging modules in the station, and that the U.S. and Boeing had flailed for nearly 20 years, squandered billlions and billions of dollars, and hadn't managed to build ANYTHING. More than a little hypocrisy there.
I've seen more than a few people point out how the U.S. pays for everything on ISS. Well this is for damn sure if you count the nearly 100 billion the U.S. wasted in those awful years when they didn't building anything, and the billion dollar a pop Shuttle flights versus the tens of millions for a Soyuz or Progress flight, and it probably costs 20-50 times as much to employ Boeing engineers to build a component as it does Russian engineers. All in all I don't think the total dollars squandered really counts for much other than to prove that nobody squanders money like NASA and Boeing. The Russians have launched and run multiple successful long duration space stations for a tiny fraction of what NASA and Boeing have wasted on ISS. I think they deserve a lot more kudos for their frugality and their ability to get bang for the buck, versus the NASA/Boeing aptitude for wasting billions of dollars.
Re:Repaid already? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:US cannot pay - by law (Score:5, Insightful)
It didnt seem to bother His holiness Ronald Reagan
when he sold aircraft and missile parts to Iran
to finance an illegal war in Nicaragua.
Sure the Democrats squeaked a little, but in the end
they did nothing about it.
Re:Repaid already? (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Repaid already? (Score:5, Insightful)
by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 30, @01:45AM (#11216800)
Spit on you? SPIT ON YOU? You thin skinned little bitch. How is it that Americans get skewered (rightly so) when they reflexively interpret disagreement with US policy as anti-americanism, but Canadians and Europeans cry "The United States SPIT on us!" everytime Washington doesn't do things exactly the way you want? The Administration asked for help. They went to the UN to explain their reasons. You may disagree. That's certainly your right as a sovereign nation. But don't starting crying that you were spit on.
responding to AC is ussually a bad idea but:
I'd say a populace smear campaign against france would constitute spitting on them. You did try to rename french fries. I'm sure that was a mature and adult way of acknolowging opposing opinions. I was also in california shortly after canada declined to support you war. And I was literally spit upon. So yes a portion of your population are a little less emotionally mature then children and you are one of them AC.
Re:Repaid already? (Score:5, Insightful)
My country was fighting, winning and losing wars long before yourcontinent waseven discovered. For once in your life, please open a fucking historybook.
I spent a year and a half in your country, have you ever been in mine?
What happened to the USA? Please someone explain to me, what the fuckhappenedto your country?
Man, like hundreds of thousand of French citizens I was in the fuckingstreetswith a large panel saying "WE LOVE YOU AMERICANS" on September, 11th2001. Mycountry sent its best firemens to help yours trying to save lives out of the WTC ruins.
Your country saved mine during the second world war and many of us went in Normandie to put some flowers on your soldiers' tombs thinking of the great sacrifice that it was for you and your country. If you think that we canforget that then you don't know anything about us.
But then, everything changed, just like that. What went wrong?
In 2001, Rumsfeld, Condi Rice and even Bush repeated, on the TV, that Iraq and Saddam were not a threat and suddenly, in 2002, Saddam became the worstevilin the world? Give me a break.
France's position was that we should have given more time of the UNinspectorsto check for Saddam's "weapons of mass destruction". Your country decided not too. Today, we know that you were wrong. It happens and, please, get over it.
Then Bush came and said that Iraq needed this invasion and that iraqis would welcome Americans. Please, do it again, open a fucking history book printed outside of Israel to understand why this is just fucking ridiculously stupid. If you think that you can support Israel on one side and then invade an arab country and be welcomed, let me tell you that you are fucking nuts.
So France "surrenders" and is "afraid of war"? Hum, maybe it's because France has a 13-centuries long history and has been devastated many times,including twice in just the last century? You never have suffered like we didafter the 2 world wars, you *cannot* understand. I'm not surprised that Germany had the same point of view on the Iraq conflict, they suffered much more than wedid. Actually, even in the countries of "the coalition", most people were against the war.
War is fucking bad, it should always be avoided at all costs. If you don't understand that war is never necessary, unless if for self-defense when someone attacks you, then I would say that your country should get an history before trying to tamper with world affairs.
This "pre emptive war" thing is the biggest amount of crap I have ever seen. Right now, some corporations are making huge amounts of money out of this crap and if you think that they care about your children dying in Iraq, let me tell you that you are plain wrong, it's all about dividend and return on investment.
Oh, and yes, diplomacy WAS possible with Saddam. Did you look at his face in February 2003, when the war was imminent? He gave you all he had! All the missiles he had, everything. He was ready to accept next to anything.
Just because some people abused the "oil for food" program and didn'tfollowthe UN sanctions doesn't mean that Saddam wasn't ready to comply. These sanctions have never been really enforced, sometimes you just need toput some weight in the balance.
This war was, is and will always be unacceptable. The vast majority of the world tells you that since the beginning and still you elected the man that lied.
Oh, and about the "freedom fries" act (that one proved that these peoplein the Congress are not actual adults), I would say I feel very happythat my country is associated to the word Freedom because yes, that'swhat we stand for.
Re:Kick in a bit of the cost, US. (Score:2, Insightful)
Your analogy falls apart when one considers that the guy probably didn't build the huge office building to which you commute every morning.
Re:Repaid already? (Score:5, Insightful)
It just happened to get invaded, and then various local terrorist forces (by the current definition) overthrew the "legitimate" goverment.
The supreme irony of course is that the only reason the revolution succeeded was assistance from the French whose new ideals were of a republic and not dissimilar to the US of the time.
And freedom.. Freedom to be persecuted by your own media industry ? Freedom to have your web site (ie your printing press) taken away without legal due process ?
"Freedom" in the USA and many other countries (the UK for example) is a marketing exercise used to control the people. Look beyond it, what matters is not being associated with a word but acting accordingly.
Alan
Re:Repaid already? (Score:1, Insightful)
The "live free or die" theme was taught to you by hollywood. Any human being given the choice to die this day (as in gun to the head), or live as a slave to fight another day will do the latter.
As for your other points...grow up.
One technology stand above all the others (Score:3, Insightful)
This technology enables: storm tracking and weather prediction, remote sensing and satellite photography for land use management and environmental monitoring, GPS for naviation and surveying, and global telecommunications.
There is little doubt in my mind that the economic values of these applications easily justify the entire effort mankind has put into space exploration.
There is also to my mind a difference in perspective in being able to see the Earth for what it is: a big blue ball, not a patchwork of countries painted different colors. The future impact of this is hard quantify however.
In any case other technologies relationship to space exploration is somewhat more tenuous. It is possible they would have been developed anyways as part of a different effort. However, the relationship between space exploration and satellite technology is completely unambiguous.
There's nothing wrong with this. (Score:3, Insightful)
2. It's realistic. The Russian space program is extremely strapped for cash, yet we are RELYING on it to keep the ISS in space. Yes, the U.S. has probably paid more in this venture. At the same time, the U.S. has a great deal more funding avaliable. Not even the U.S. government at large, but NASA it self. NASA's budget is many, many times the size of the Russia space program.
Instead of thinking of Russia as some kind of nebulous partner, think about it this way: For launches, we are 'contracting' out to the Russian space program.
Doesn't sound so bad in that context, eh? Who would you rather pay? American contractors, to work on the shuttle, literally spending BILLIONS of dollars, 70% of which is pork? Or the Russian space program, which incidentially helps (slightly) our relationship with Russia, and who can do the job better, faster, and cheaper.
Screw the shuttle. They do it better, and we should learn from them. We American's need to pull our head's out of our collective anuses.
The Russians attempted to build a space shuttle in the 70s, and failed because of the cost (not techincal reasons). We should learn from that. It's just TOO DAMN EXPENSIVE.
3. There's no way around it. Russia doesn't have the money any more. That's a combination of our fault and their fault, by the way. Yes, communism was failing, because it was rotten. Their new economic system, shock-therapy capitalism, has so far been a disaster, as well. We planned it for them, eh? We set Russia up for this economic nightmare. They are, however, a competent people, with immense natural resources, so they will recover. At some point. But right now, there simply is no money in the Russian Space Agencies coffers.
For all you idiotic nae-sayers: THEY AREN'T TRYING TO GOUGE US! WHAT THEY ASK FOR IS NOTHING COMPARED TO WHAT BOEING WOULD ASK FOR! WE NEED THEM TO KEEP LAUNCHING SOYUEZ UNITS! THEY CAN'T DO IT WITHOUT FINANCIAL HELP!
Btw: I believe the number of Soyuez missions has stepped up because us, the U.S., can't get to space!
In comparison to our domestic contractors, or the ESA (European), or the JSA (Japanese), the Russians do a fine, cheap job.
Re:Repaid already? (Score:3, Insightful)
Don't congratulate yourself on geography. You've got the Atlantic on the East and the Pacific on the west. No one is goiong to roll tanks over your borders.
Re:Repaid already? (Score:3, Insightful)
...we know that you were wrong...
Nationalist debates with "we" and "you" are crap. It reeks of a sports-team mentality torwards nationalism.
Think about this:
Toss in the overwhelming cult of knowledge and the phrase "you were wrong" and it turns into the debating equivalent of poking your finger into somebody's chest.
We are pawns. Say it out loud. "We are pawns"
Given that we are pawns, now how much sense does it make to say "you were wrong?"
To say otherwise is to contribute to the anti-French crap. The American people had no control over the government's and private media's adoption of the anti-French crap, and the French people had no control over their stance regarding the war in Iraq.
Now, IMHO, any American who adopts any nationalist crap directed against the citizens or residents of a country are guilty of nationalism. Exactly like any American who adopts any racist crap aginst the members of any perceived race are guilty of racism.
Nations are to nationalism what race is to racism.
Re:Well then. (Score:2, Insightful)
Actually you could easily argue that capitalism is inherently inefficient and wasteful.
Capitalism only functions when people buy products and consume them. The more people buy, the healthier the economy is, therefore most products are made to not last very long. (Don't believe me? Think of what would happen to the automobile industry if every family had a vehicle that lasted forever?).
Since products are essentially made to be disposable, this is by definition wasteful.
Re:Repaid already? (Score:2, Insightful)
I know history quite well, thank you. Have a minor in ancient literature, and currently reading about a history of the Middle Ages - very much of which is set in France.
I spent a year and a half in your country, have you ever been in mine?
Yes, and it was very enjoyable. Most folks were great; some were pricks. That reminded me a lot of the States (and Spain, and South Africa, and Argentina, etc.)
Your country saved mine during the second world war and many of us went in Normandie to put some flowers on your soldiers' tombs thinking of the great sacrifice that it was for you and your country. If you think that we canforget that then you don't know anything about us.
Thank you for the sentiment. I used to make arguments like that in high school, but I have matured since then. And, likewise, thank you for French heroes such as Lafayette and the support of the French government during the Revolutionary War - the US would have been nowhere without France.
France's position was that we should have given more time of the UNinspectors
The cease fire ending the shooting 1991 Gulf War stated that Saddam was to turn over all WMD, and the Inspectors were to verify that this was indeed the case. This was NEVER to have turned into the Keystone Kops hide-and-seek it became. How in the hell would inspectors EVER have been able to find proscribed weapons when their movements were monitored and controlled? When they had to file "inspection plans" prior to actually inspecting? When they could be held at bay by armed forces with no recourse? How does this serve the cause of world peace?
War is fucking bad, it should always be avoided at all costs
Ah.. here is the crux of the matter. I do agree wholeheartedly with the 1st part. However, there are worse things than war, and it should NOT always be avoided. What if the US had not (belatedly) entered WWII? What if France and Britain had decided to confront Hitler when he violated the Treaty of Versailles and militarized the Ruhr valley? How many MILLIONS would have been saved? What about the cold war? Should it even have been fought - or should the world have succumbed to the Soviet definition of peace - the entire world upholding Communist ideals?
And, last but not least, what about the war (yes, it is a war) we are currently in with Radical Islam? Where infidels are to be beheaded because of their religion/lack thereof? A sect in which leading theological lights support the indiscriminate murder of children (cf. Beslan) to support politico-theological goals? If such murder is acceptable (or in fact, rewarded in the next life), is it then inconceivable that these bad actors have made common cause with an individual/state which, though despised, is allied against your biggest enemy?
Is freedom (of speech, of religion, of innocents to not be slaughtered like cattle) worth fighting for? If the answer is NO, then your above statement would hold. However (presuming you are French), that would betray the ideals not only of the 5th republic, but also the foundation of the society you hold dear. After all, what happened to Louis XVI? How did that happen? Should that have never happened?
Re:You were buying security, not spacecraft (Score:3, Insightful)
"Imagine waiting in line for hours just to buy a loaf of bread for your family."
Hate to break it to you but most of the Russian people were starving under the pre soviet system too. And most of the Russian people were starving when the Nazi's were rolling through the wheatfields in the Ukraine and half of their country was laid ruin, a fate the U.S. has never suffered. The U.S. came to be a superpower by an accident of geography, it was the one major industrial nation that wasn't devastated by World War II because it was protected by two oceans. It has nothing to do with the America's delusions about the superiority of its system.
"Russians have historically been very good at everything except governing themselves, at which they're terrible."
After watching the last 4-5 years I hate to break it to you but Americans are equally bad at it. Elections are turning in to a farce, swung by brainless attack ads and a clueless electorate, Congress is writing legislation in back rooms and shoving it through before anyone has a chance to read it, lobbyists and special interests are outright buying politicians and legislation (reference Medicare "reform"), government spending and deficits are completely out of control, the entire nation was rushed in to a bloody and probably never ending quagmire under false pretenses or maybe outright lies. Oh and I forgot a right wing House tried to impeach a President because he lied about sex and drug the entire nation through the mud for no reason other than they were trying to destroy a centrist Democratic President and insure they won the White House in 2000 which they did.
What exactly is it about American government that you think qualifies it as a shining example of good government. I just don't see it.