US to Pay to go to ISS 636
forgotten_my_nick writes "According to BBC News, Russia has announced that it will no longer ferry US astronauts to space for free (It has been doing so for two years). From 2006 the US will be expected to pay."
They are doing a part exchange (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Russia seems different since the school inciden (Score:3, Informative)
It appears to be a case of charge for it, or do not do it at all. The Russian Space Agency is facing financial difficulties and needs all the extra funds it can get.
Chris
Re:Repaid already? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:White Elephant (Score:4, Informative)
I think in part the whole project was a mixture of diplomatic goodwill and make-work for a floundering industry sector, with a healthy helping of publicity banner thrown in. As far as I'm aware, the ISS has contributed nothing of note scientifically, and far less than it ought to have in terms of technological/engineering breakthroughs, though I'd welcome any infirmation that either confirms or denies this baseless accusation.
I suppose it's better than nothing, but there are (could be) far better science platforms than a manned space station. Look what the HST did, for instance.
Re:WTG Russia. (Score:3, Informative)
#1 the computer you're using now -- space exploration pushed the microelectoronics revolution
#2 that fancy koolatron cooler that you bought last summer to keep your beer cold, again thank space exploration
#3 teflon, plastics, most modern alloys, etc.
ok, I'm done feeding the trolls, next!
Re:WTG Russia. (Score:5, Informative)
Here are some examples from the list
Air Quality Monitor
Virtual Reality
Municiple Water prurification (So your tap water doesn't kill you.)
Solar Energy
Fire resistant material
Digital Imagry Breast Biopsy
Voice controlled wheel chair
And here are a bunch from the above link that were easy to cut and paste:
Advanced keyboards, Customer Service Software, Database Management System, Laser Surveying, Aircraft controls, Lightweight Compact Disc, Expert System Software, Microcomputers, and Design Graphics. Dustbuster, shock-absorbing helmets, home security systems, smoke detectors, flat panel televisions, high-density batteries, trash compactors, food packaging and freeze-dried technology, cool sportswear, sports bras, hair styling appliances, fogless ski goggles, self-adjusting sunglasses, composite golf clubs, hang gliders, art preservation, and quartz crystal timing equipment. Whale identification method, environmental analysis, noise abatement, pollution measuring devices, pollution control devices, smokestack monitor, radioactive leak detector, earthquake prediction system, sewage treatment, energy saving air conditioning, and air purification. Arteriosclerosis detection, ultrasound scanners, automatic insulin pump, portable x-ray device, invisible braces, dental arch wire, palate surgery technology, clean room apparel, implantable heart aid, MRI, bone analyzer, and cataract surgery tools. Gasoline vapor recovery, self-locking fasteners, machine tool software, laser wire stripper, lubricant coating process, wireless communications, engine coatings, and engine design. Storm warning services (Doppler radar), firefighters' radios, lead poison detection, fire detector, flame detector, corrosion protection coating, protective clothing, and robotic hands. So yeah, I'd say mankind has gained something from going to space. And to think all of this would have been developed in the timeframe without NASA and its goals is laughable.
Re:WTG Russia. (Score:2, Informative)
Then the ran out of money, so they scrapped the program!
Re:In related news... (Score:5, Informative)
As a matter of fact, the Europeans are expecting the US to hold up its end of the bargain. They spent millions of dollars on the ESA lab module for the ISS, and due to the grounding of the Shuttle fleet, it is on the ground gathering cobwebs. What is really angering the ESA is NASA toying with the idea of breaking their contract [adastragames.com] by permanently grounding the Shuttle fleet and never lofting the lab.
Without the Russian's heavy lift capacity for re-supply, the ISS would have to be abandoned, which entails a large risk that the station would undergo a catastrophic failure. NASA would actually like to pay the Russians and have the funds to do so. Unfortunately, there is a slight obstacle in the form of the Iran non-Proliferation Agreement of 2000 [adastragames.com].
Re:WTG Russia. (Score:3, Informative)
I wonder how many people involved with law enforcement are frowning at that example.
Helping people live longer: Benefit to mankind.
Advancing medicine and the technology that is used to advance medicine: Benefit to mankind.
Making it possible to leave this planet in search of more resources: Benefit to mankind.
Turning off your imagination to discredit the space programs: No benefit to mankind.
Re:In related news... (Score:5, Informative)
I assure you the Russians built the heart of the station that is there now, the Zarya [zarya.info] Control Module and the Zvezda crew quarters. Zarya is called a U.S. component only because the U.S. paid for it through Boeing but it was built in Russia.
The U.S. was supposed to build the Crew Return Vehicle which would have allowed it to be fully manned but that was long ago cancelled. When it was the U.S. killed any prospect of the seven man crew which pretty much killed the ISS as ever being useful. The current crew can barely maintain it and don't do much research, not like its any good for any zero G research anyway.
The U.S. is building a lot of solar panels many of which are probably never going to fly and aren't the most challenging part of the station.
Russia had a full functional space station for like a decade called Mir. Most of their expertise is at the heart of the current ISS core. Not sure NASA could have successfully flown anything without them. If you recall during the years Russia was in Mir, NASA and Boeing was churning out one failed ISS design after another, none of which flew and all of which just filled Boeing's pork filled belly.
I imagine Russia is regretting they deorbited Mir as a condition of joining ISS. It was past its prime and on its last legs but at least it was all theirs. ISS is all shiny and new and flush with squandered U.S. tax dollars but its probably going to end being pathetic and doing anything useful. Russia was getting a whole lot more done with a whole lot less with Mir. I think the modules now forming the core of ISS would have gone in to Mir2 if they could have scraped together the cash for it. I imagine they have been a lot happier and got more done if they weren't bogged down in the political morasse that is ISS.
Maybe the shuttle will fly again and the ISS will get kind of on track again but I really doubt it. Its probably never going to get much beyond where it is today, and Russia will most probably have to keep it alive while NASA's manned space program finishes cratering. Maybe thing will improve at NASA with O'Keefe gone but I doubt it. Its pretty obvious his head was completely bent by the Columbia disaster and he was totally paralyzed at the prospect of
US cannot pay - by law (Score:4, Informative)
This announcement by the RSA is nothing more than a rehash of an old argument - and one that will not be solved any time soon as it would require an Act of Congress.
The only way it can be resolved realistically is through a barter arrangement (which is what RSA is suggesting in some reports). Hence, not a lot of immediate use to the "cash-strapped Russian space program".
Re:In related news... (Score:2, Informative)
I say we tell the Russians to go screw off and not let them use the 90%+ of the space station that we funded. See, we can be just as childish. Thats, right. Any nation that wants to get "technical" about what they have given to the ISS, we can just remind them of _our_ contributions of the majority of the ISS. Just as they want to charge or take away from their "contributions", we should charge or take away from our contributions.
I think you're taking this the wrong way. You have to consider that the Russian space program is damn near broke. They aren't doing this out of spite, they seriously need to find some new sources of funding to keep their program afloat.
Likewise, we do need their services. It's in our interests to ensure they don't go bankrupt. Especially when you consider that Russians can get a Soyez to the ISS for a fraction of the cost we can get a shuttle there. Even being charged for the service, we're still getting a bargain.
Under the circumstances, I can't say I blame the Russians. What would you do if you were in their situation?
Re:White Elephant (Score:4, Informative)
Actually, in the beginning it was supposed to be an American space station. Then when it was clear the taxpayers didn't want to pay for it the Russians were enticed to join the effort as a way to tap their supply systems and also to keep Russian engineers from moving to the Middle East and building guided missles. Then the Europeans were pushed into adding their tax dollars (for no reason I can see, from the European point of view).
And no they aren't doing any usefull science. But then they wouldn't have with a seven man crew. What usefull science would you expect to get out of a manned space project in LEO anyway? The Russians did all the usefull human biology stuff decades ago, so I think what we'll see is more of the same old worthless stuff they did on the shuttle: high-school science projects and more space crystals that could have been grown more cheaply on the ground.
Re:Well then. (Score:2, Informative)
Fictional stories are cool, but I prefer mine with wizards and dragons, or atleast a guy collecting 2 of an impossibly large amount of species all on a small arc.
A quinessential example of american "journalism".. (Score:2, Informative)
Re:missing links (Score:3, Informative)
Re:WTG Russia. (Score:5, Informative)
Just because something is labeled "space age" doesn't make it actually related to space research. (But then, space research has given us the Space Age Ant Habitat [thinkgeek.com] for our desktops, of course.)
Re:A quinessential example of american "journalism (Score:3, Informative)
- BBC stands for British Broadcasting Corporation.
- The article states clearly that the 2005 'freebies' were paying off the man-hour debt for the work on the station.
- The original interview, which states clearly: "Starting from 2006, we shall bring American astronauts to the ISS on a commercial basis" comes from Itar Tas - also not a US organisation.
Quit your pathetic whining about the evils of US journalism and learn to read the article before complaining about what you'd like to think it might say.Re:Well then. (Score:2, Informative)
I don't see any problems here at all. What specifically makes you say it can't be done? The Soyuz can be brought to the same orbital plane as Hubble. The Soyuz can maneuver in space - and if you think it doesn't have enough fuel, just send a Progress ship to dock with Soyuz. The Soyuz has airlock. The Soyuz can fly with two people onboard, and extra cargo, needed for repairs, can be taken along.
Best of all, all of that was already successfully tried. Soyuz-4 and Soyuz-5 have docked [kursknet.ru] in space in 1969. Progress was used to boost the orbit [satobs.org] of another ship, ISS in this case. The Soyuz' airlock is the orbital module [russianspaceweb.com]. Soyuz have flown [astronautix.com] with two people on board. Soyuz was actually used to repair a station in space [libero.it], when all the control was lost.
Re:In related news... (Score:3, Informative)
Name (Built-Funded)
Zarya (R-U)
Unity (U-U)
Zvezda (R-R)
Z1 Truss (U-U)
PMA1 (U-U)
PMA2 (U-U)
PMA3 (U-U)
Destiny (U-U)
Pirs (Russian Docking Compartment) (R-R)
S0 Truss (U-U) (includes Mobile Transporter)
S1 Truss (U-U)
Canadarm2 (C-C)
Mobile Base System (C-C)
P1 Truss (U-U)
P6 Truss (U-U)
Quest (U-U)
Node 1 (U-U)
My count gives me: 3 Russian-built, one of which was American funded, and 12 American built, all of which were American funded. And unlike the Euro-built Nodes, which are being built in exchange for NASA launching Columbus, FGB was bought by the Americans because the Russians couldn't.
By the way, Wikipedia isn't authoritative on this; I'd trust NASA's assembly drawings, which are publicly available at spaceflight.nasa.gov, quite a bit more.
Pirs is a docking module. The trusses, in addition to providing support structure, include photovoltaics to provide power and radiators to provide thermal control. Russian experience is certainly why they get away with relatively small amounts of contribution, but the truth is - they lied about what they could do, financially, and as a result have received significant loans and leeway. Between paying for Zarya and having to purchase a backup for Zvezda because the Russians couldn't/wouldn't, significant financial resources have been expended by the Americans to cover the Russians' asses.
Russia has the utilization rights to 100% of the Russian portion of the station, and no rights to the rest of the station (the NASA/NASDA/ESA/CSA section). Right now, that amounts to roughly zero, since there is zero experimental capability on the Russian side. Any resources they have are in exchange for the Russian crewmembers time.
I'm pretty correct on this; the funding is mainly American, and the distribution of resources reflects that. If and when Russia ever gets around to launching RRM and SPP, I'll be wrong, but it doesn't look like that's ever going to happen. Russia has as much up there are they're likely to ever have, while there's quite a bit of American, European, and Canadian segments still to be launched.
It isn't the American station; it is, however, a station funded mainly by the US.
Re:Repaid already? (Score:2, Informative)
And the homeless guy is doing the same thing in charging a price that you are willing to pay. I see absolutely no problem with this at all. People do this all the time, buying cheap things made in China, and selling them for more money in other places and at other times.