EU Intent on Hosting International Fusion Reactor

Raunch writes "The BBC says that EU is determined to be one of the sites that host the multi-billion-dollar International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor Even if they have to do so less-than-internationally: 'If there is no agreement at six we are determined to do it with fewer.' Not only that, but 'The EU wants an agreement on the project before the end of the year'"

To preempt some things

[Mukaikubo]

No, it's not the US putting up a fight. No, it's not the US that would probably be shut out in the cold. This is a threat against Japan and to a lesser extent China. Can we please keep the US vs. Europe flamewar out of this thread?

Re:To preempt some things

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, if you read the article, China is in favour of the EU site - they don't get on too well with Japan - Japan chased a Chinese sub out of their waters recently, for starters.

Re:To preempt some things

[Coryoth]

Actually, if you read the article, China is in favour of the EU site - they don't get on too well with Japan

That is a terrible understatement. Many many Chinese have never forgiven Japan for the terrible atrocities during the Second World War. It didnt involve westerners so most in the west have nly a few scant ideas of what went on, but to the Chinese it is never to be forgotten.

I know Chinese people who simply refuse, on spec, to ever speak to anyone of Japanese decent. Yes it really is that serious.

Jedidiah.

Re:Nobody wants it in their backyard

[A beautiful mind]

This is all wrong. Its not a nuclear reactor. Its a fusion reactor. It has million and million C hot plasma in it(4th state of materials). The shape of the reactor is called tokamak (at least in hungarian, not sure about the correct english writing of it). The really good thing about this reactor that its not dangerous. While in nuclear reactors, some events can lead into a chain reaction. No such thing can happen in a fusion reactor, since If the reaction gets more input(materials, heat, etc) its just shuts itself down, on the contrary to the exponential reaction observed in nuclear reactions. The fusion reactor is one of the cleanest if not the cleanest known way to produce energy.

Re:The EU isn't stupid...

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think European science administrators are worried about the Japanese building well-engineered, consumer-oriented compact reactors. Furthermore, ITER will be closely modelled on CERN - meaning that the scientists, administrators and engineers involved will come from dozens of countries.

No, the reason why the EU wants to have ITER is because the world's major fusion research centre has always been in Europe. The Joint European Torus in Culham, UK is the reactor which has thus far come closest to generating energy (sustaining a reaction for several minutes - almost long enough to generate more energy than is needed to start the reaction off), and is also a European project. Culham has gone as far as it can go, though, and ITER is to be its replacement. So it's no surprise that the European Commission and the European governments that have funded this extremely successful project want to keep it in Europe.

The main sticking point is really in the US: can the current administration overcome their disdain for the French and back the European proposal...?

Re:Nobody wants it in their backyard

[A beautiful mind]

Sorry to reply to my own post, but here are some interesting things: There is already a working fusion reactor in the UK. This one though, not generates but consumes power. It's because the reactor is too small, it needs to have a big enough size for the reaction inside to be self-sustaining, and its not big enough for that. The first reactor which would actually produce power, is what the debate about atm.

Re:big money, intl relations...

[davejenkins]

I'd much prefer to live in beautiful France than in the sparsely populated bit of North Japan where ITER would be built

Hrmmm. You've probably never been to northern Japan-- it is some of the most beautiful countryside with wonderful small towns that I have ever seen-- much more attractive than France (IMHO). I can almost guess that the Japanese Govt would go off the deep end in terms of providing the coolest facilities for the scientists-- not so sure the French would do the same.

Yes, I have lived in Europe. Yes, I live in Tokyo.

Re:Nobody wants it in their backyard

[Da Fokka]

You are so ignorant.

This is a fusion reactor, not a fission reactor. When things go wrong in a fission reactor there is the possibility of a meltdown, etc. This possibility does not exist in a fusion reactor. If something goes wrong, the reaction stops and in a worst case scenario, there's a fire. Nothing worse than your average coal plant, except for the fact that it's not emitting tonnes of carbon dioxide.

Re:Nobody wants it in their backyard

[Flaming Foobar]

Yeah, the EU used to kill each other, but they're all friends now!

You say that as a joke, but for the most part, it's true. There is very little turmoil within the limits of the EU at the moment.

Re:big money, intl relations...

[Lonewolf666]

From a quick glance at the http://www.iter.org/ site, the cost seems to be around 5.5 billion dollars plus operation. Expensive, but a lot less expensive than waging war in the middle east for oil.
As a EU citizen (German, to be exact), I am in favour of the EU doing the project on its own if the US don't want to participate. Even if it will not be a commercially viable power plant yet, that would (hopefully) be the next model.

Re:To preempt some things

[DuBey79]

Actually this might have been the case at one point, but the US has since become neutral on the subject

From:

http://www.aip.org/fyi/2003/065.html

I quote:

"Looney said that "If the US joins ITER it would not be as a lead player." The United States is "absolutely neutral" as to where the facility would be located..."

Re:Some 'Proof'

[JaredOfEuropa]

With all the writing this guy does, on physics, the stock market and on other stuff, you wonder where he finds the time to do any actual research. Reading his 'proof' about the limits on output of a fusion reactor, I can draw only one conclusion: he's a crackpot.

Oh and in between cracking the secrets to the stockmarkets and proving wrong all the eminent scientists who believe fusion power can work, he also solved the problem of the Grand Unified Theory of Physics, according to his website.

This is not intended as a flame; but I have some serious problems taking this guy seriously.

Re:big money, intl relations...

[Fulcrum of Evil]

Plenty of nice scenery in Nikko

Oh yes, and take your skis - there's some really excellent ski resorts around there.

Re:Nobody wants it in their backyard

[strict3]

We do however object to Americans and Religious people being the two groups who have given us the most grief 'ever' I expect.

Yes. Those Nazi armies marching across your lands were just a mild annoyance.

Re:big money, intl relations...

[delong]

Of course French aid during the Revolution had nothing to do with sticking it to their age-old foes, the English, and repaying in kind French loss of North American colonies after the Seven Years War.

And of course you wouldn't want the little fact of the Quasi-War with France between 1797 and 1800 to cloud your imperfect understanding of Franco-American relations. And let's not even mention Degaul and post-WWII French attitudes. NATO used to be based in France, before the French pulled out of the military wing of NATO, evicted NATO from French territory, and seized NATO military installations. And of course the foundation of the EU was laid by a Franco-German pact to create a counter-weight to the US, decades before Dubya ever entered office. French obstinance and anti-Americanism goes back at least to WWII and is rooted as much in resentment of losing its place as a pre-eminent world power as any principled opposition to US "bullying", whatever that is.

Re:The USA probably tries to

[HMA2000]

No offence but you have no idea what you are talking about.

It is true that oil is denominated in dollars
But it is also true that dollars are denominated in Euros and vice versa.

If I wanted to trade oil in euros here is how I would do it.
I would buy a oil futures contract to take delivery of 1,000 barrels on someday in december (it's on the nymex website I think it is 16th but I could be wrong.)
Then when that comes I pony up dollars and take delivery of my oil. But I don't want to pay in dollars I want to pay in Euros.
So on the day I agree to the oil futures contract I also purchase a dollar/euro forward contract such that I lock in an exchange rate where I pay x euros and receive y dollars, where y is the amount of the oil futures contract.

PRESTO! I have just traded oil in euros.

Now you could make the argument that increased trade on the dollar provides the dollar with a liquidity premium and that is true. But it isn't as big as one might think.

Say that the US consumes 20% of the world's oil supply (a very conservitive estimate) we consumed approximately 100 billion dollars worth of crude in 2003(1). That means global crude trade is about 500 billion dollars. The US economy is about 11 trillion a year(2). So the oil trade accounts for just 4.5% of all dollars traded, any liquidity premium the US receives will be small relative to the overall value of the dollar.

To recap:
You can trade oil in any currency you like thanks to the ultra liquid Foreign currency exchange market.
The US derives, at best, a negligible liquidity premium from the dollar stockpiles that remain on hand for oil trading.

(1) http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/statistics/pro duct/enduse/imports/c0000.html
(2) http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ us.html

Re:French Imperialist Bullies Disliked worldwide

[kraut]

Actually, the French in Ivory Coast aren't acting as an imperial power, they are acting as peacekeepers to end the civil war there. With a UN mandata, unlike certain other people... Of course the fact that they are actually taking action against the government when it violates the terms of the ceasefire doesn't make them popular there, but it is effective.

As for principles and opposition to the war: The war had nothing to do with principles in the first place. Get over it. You might also have to accept the idea that just because someone is your ally in important matters doesn't mean they have to ask "How high?" every time you say "Jump".

Re:To preempt some things

[HuguesT]

Sorry, wrong example. France is the only country besides the US which has in fact recently built and now operates true aircraft carriers. Brazil runs one of the old French carrier, and another 7 countries: India, Russia, Spain, Italy, Thailand, and the United Kingdom operate light, short carriers from which either helicopters or VSTOL aircrafts like the Harrier can take off.

See the wikipedia list with the usual caveat regarding Wikipedia.

True aircraft carriers are much longer and bigger than the other variety and generally carry navalized version of aircrafts also operating from land.

Notice that Japan neither operates nor has recently built any aircraft carrier of any description.

Furthermore the fusion reactor will not be built by the host country but by the same collection of countries irrespective of where it is hosted. The point of the location of the reactor is (a) political, (b) prestige, (c) economic (more jobs, fewer transport costs for the host country and its neighbours, etc) but not a question of who will build it.

Neutron bombardment?

[molo]

One of the results of fusion is free neutrons, going off into whatever material surrounds the fusion process. In the case of the tokamak, neutrons can't be confined by magnetic fields because they are electrically neutral. The neutrons make the tokamak itself become highly radioactive over time, and will cause it to eventually be decommissioned because it is too dangerous to work around.

Now, granted, the tokamak can be stored unused for a hundred years or so and then recommissioned (it is a hell of a lot better than the thousand-years half-lives of fission wasteproducts), but it is still a problem that needs to be addressed.

-molo

Re:France paying off Japan with Sadams money?

[17028]

It's good that the US is trying to set a better example then.

http://www.cnn.com/US/9901/08/olympic.bribes.03/ [cnn.com]

Big international business is corrupt. Who would've guessed?