Atlantis Found. Again. 671
Tufriast writes "Paul McCartney and Mythic eat your heart out! BBC News has an interesting revelation regarding the lost city of Atlantis: "American researchers claim to have found convincing evidence that locates the site of the lost kingdom of Atlantis off the coast of Cyprus."" Hey, here's an idea: The idea of an almost mythical lost civilization is common thread throughout all old human societies - much like, say, really big Floods. Perhaps there could be more then one story that fits? But, no, that wouldn't be a simplistic enough answer to be sound-bitten into oblivion.
More than one story that fits? (Score:5, Insightful)
Mythical Lost Civilisation (Score:0, Insightful)
Idea (Score:2, Insightful)
Hey, here's an idea. The primary job of an editor is to edit not editorialize.
Sheesh.its about the benjamins (Score:5, Insightful)
Perhaps there could be more then one story that fits? But, no, that wouldn't be a simplistic enough answer to be sound-bitten into oblivion.
If you're an archaeologist, it's alot easier to get funding for your excavation if you make it sound like your project has major ramifications to the history of humanity.
It's just good business to call it Atlantis.
Then??? (Score:0, Insightful)
Stiry of Atlantis was an allegory; it was not real (Score:3, Insightful)
From
http://skepdic.com/atlantis.html
>>>>>>>>>>>
At
Many great and wonderful deeds are recorded of your state in our histories. But one of them exceeds all the rest in greatness and valour. For these histories tell of a mighty power which unprovoked made an expedition against the whole of Europe and Asia, and to which your city put an end. This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent.
Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and over parts of the continent, and, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia. This vast power, gathered into one, endeavoured to subdue at a blow our country and yours and the whole of the region within the straits; and then, Solon, your country shone forth, in the excellence of her virtue and strength, among all mankind. She was pre-eminent in courage and military skill, and was the leader of the Hellenes. And when the rest fell off from her, being compelled to stand alone, after having undergone the very extremity of danger, she defeated and triumphed over the invaders, and preserved from slavery those who were not yet subjugated, and generously liberated all the rest of us who dwell within the pillars. (Timaeus)
The story is reminiscent of what Athens did against the Persians in the early 5th century BCE, but the battle with Atlantis allegedly took place in the 8th or 9th millennium BCE. It would not take much of an historical scholar to know that Athens in 9,000 BCE was either uninhabited or was occupied by very primitive people. This fact would not have concerned Plato's readers because they would have understood that he was not giving them an historical account of a real city. To assume, as many believers in Atlantis do, that there is a parallel between Homer's Iliad and Odyssey and Plato's Critias and Timaeus is simply absurd. And those who think that just as Schliemann found Troy so too will we someday crack Plato's code and find Atlantis are drawing an analogy where they should be drawing the curtains. Plato's purpose was not to pass on stories, but to create stories to teach moral lessons. What can we expect next from these lost scholars? A search for the grave of Cecrops, the serpent-tailed first king of Athens? The discovery of the true trident of Poseidon?
Sonar isn't enough... (Score:5, Insightful)
My point is that until they come up with some underwater photos, artifacts, or both, it's a bit early to claim that they found something that might not have even existed in the first place.
Paul McCartney (Score:1, Insightful)
Really Big Floods (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Sonar isn't enough... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Plato made it up this parable. (Score:5, Insightful)
Plato goes out of his way to say that the story NOT a parable and that Atlantis really existed.
The information he's relaying is third or fourth hand and has been translated at least once (possibly multiplying all the numbers by 10).
I keep an open mind about Atlantis because Troy was ficticious right up until someone found it.
-B
Re:More to the point ... (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:More than one story that fits? (Score:2, Insightful)
As far as Atlantis goes, there have been many claims of underwater cities, probably caused my a multitude of events (volcanos, earthquakes, landslides, etc). I see the "Atlantis" story as a way of getting the attention of the press so the researcher can quickly get his idea out for review and possibly attract some funds. There is value in the research, even if it is just an old city and not the mythical Atlantis with its advanced-technology-such-as-the-world-has-never-s
That's not that odd... (Score:3, Insightful)
why post when you don't know? (Score:3, Insightful)
It was not just Plato who talked about Atlantis (like we talk about, say, Chicago), but also the Eygyptians and the Hindus in Vedic manuscripts that still exist!
Yes, there is a lot of BS when we discuss antideluvian civiliazations. And, yes, there are lies and mis-truths from modern entrenched elites such as the mafias that run the archiology and anthropology departments world wide who seem to be in-bed with world freemasonr. (please no flame, I admit that the previous statement is a little paranoid).
There is a lot of evidence that contridicts what is taught in schools and displayed in the vanity mueseums created by the entrenche elites (such as the Simthsonian and various schools of archiology).
Atlantis, however, is such a pervasive story that is found in a lot of differnt sources from antiquity that it is most likely a real place.
Here is a small list of other cities or civilizations that were considered to be made up:
Troy
Ninevah
Minoan civilizations
the Miceneans
Throughout history there are those who make up stories. And they do this because it gives them a certain power. But you must be able to sort through the cruft.
When you reduce human tradegdy such as the distruction of a civilization to an 'obvious parable' then you do the rest of us a disservice.
It amazes me that in the United States there are 7,000 year old archiological sites that are left ignored. Why? Because the harvard and etc mafias have their world view and don't want to rock it. There is a site in Amesbury MA that is reported to be 7000 years old. There is no marker, no books, no mueseum and no way to get at the artifacts that were found there.
Whenever anyone finds anything precolumbian in the US the Smithsonian burries it.
For years Mystery Hill in New Hampshire was stated as being a fraud. And then after it came out that a lot of metholithic ruins were astronomical observatories, Mystery Hill was examined and it was also found to be one!
There are spirals that are found on rocks in Celtic ruins, in Spain, in North Africa and also on ruins in the American Southwest! The Hopi say these are 18 year moon-cycle calanders for observing the cycles of the moon. And yet pick up a book on the Celts and the authors don't know what these are.
The Zuni's of the American Southwest have recently been shown to most likely have been decendant from Buddist pilgrims from Japan who arrived in New Mexico region about 1000 years ago! Do your children get taught this in school? No. And why not? Because the establishment hasn't gotten around to learning these things yet.
Open your mind and please do not reduce the tradegies of human history into 'obvious parable'.
If you don't know, don't say.
Floods (Score:3, Insightful)
No, I'm not talking about the earth being 6000 years old and Mosasaurs being proof of evolution.
For example, the Great Flood myth that pop up around the Persian Gulf all stem from the fact that the Persian Gulf filled up only about 9000 years ago. Well it may have gone from marsh to it's current form sometimes in there. Likewise it's a stretch, but not too much of one to have some of those myths derive from the end of the most recent Ice Age and the rising of the water levels from that.
Re:More to the point ... (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Idea! (Score:3, Insightful)
When I read things like this on that site
"There seems to be no doubt that Vimanas were powered by some sort of "anti-gravity." Vimanas took off vertically, and were capable of hovering in the sky, like a modern helicopter or dirigible. Bharadvajy the Wise refers to no less than 70 authorities and 10 experts of air travel in antiquity. These sources are now lost."
It's easy to dismiss the whole lot as gibberish and gobbledegook. If you are making theories based purely on a series of suppositions then I am disappointed the conclusion isn't even more fantastic !
Re:More to the point ... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Plato made it up this parable. (Score:1, Insightful)
What other things are possible?
Re:More to the point ... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:More to the point ... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:More than one story that fits? (Score:5, Insightful)
Go back several hundred years and tell them that there was ice on a moon of Jupiter. You would probably be laughed at, since everyone knew that anything in space was just a lump of rock.
Again, proving a negative is not possible without evidence. Scientists several hundred years ago would not laugh at ice on the distant moons. They would simply want to see what evidence you base your assumption on. If you had no evidence, then you very well might be laughed out of town ( or excommunicated from the church ). But if you offered some equations based on some experiments that you conducted, then others would likely take a good look at what you had and validate or disprove your hypothesis.
I get worried by people that ask me to prove something does not exist. That is not the scientific process. If you claim that something exists, then offer proof. Don't put an idea out there and say "Disprove this". This is often the basis for pseudoscience and is very dangerous because people not familiar with the scientific method (most people) will accept an unsupported hypothesis as fact because there is no "evidence" of the contrary.
As to your argument, I cannot prove it does not exist. But the burden is on you to prove, not for me to disprove. The reasons against fire breathing dragons are the lack of evidence. We have a very well preserved record of the middle ages, and surely something as spectacular as a fire breathing dragon would be preserved somewhere. Artifacts from trophy hunters, lairs, bones, remains, etc are all lacking. All we have are stories to go on. Stories often embellish the facts to make for a more interesting story. Eg. "Who cares about the guy who killed a 7 foot monitor lizard, _My Friend_ killed a 20 foot lizard who breathed fire and shot lightning from his eyes!". So while the story may be based on a real creature, one needs to be able to separate fact from fiction. The easiest, most consistent way to do this is to demand evidence for any claims.
Er, doesn't this claim require external evidence? (Score:2, Insightful)
Pardon my asking, but aren't these sources (Exodus, Numbers) the very sources which the grandparent posting calls into doubt as original works of Moses (transmitted to later scribes or otherwise)?
I love Exodus 17:14:
Seems like in order for the remembrance of Amalek to really be blotted out from under heaven, we'd have to destroy a bunch of Bibles!
Here's Exodus 24:4.
Exodus 34:27 is one of the "Giving of the Ten Commandments" narratives.
Numbers 33:2 purports to describe the Exodus from Egypt itself, and, intra, gives details about the route taken from Egypt by Israel.
Fine, if you can accept a source as justification for its own validity. But I would think that modern scholarship would look for some external validation for these claims. For instance, can any record be found among contemporary Egyptian chronicles giving just these vectors for the departing Israelites, a record that preferably wasn't available in the time of King Josiah?
I treasure the Bible, personally (I also treasure other, much older stories such as Gilgamesh.) But my appreciation of the Bible isn't constrained by having to believe that everything in it is true in the style of modern history (lots of untruth there, too.)
History is written by winners.
Re:Atlantis = Plato's fairytale. (Score:3, Insightful)
You mean those of his comtemporaries whom we currently have knowledge of did not write about Atlantis?
You can find dozens of examples of names and places written about in the bible that many claimed were fairy tales since there were no other records of them. Pontius Pilate, Belshazzar, etc...
In this case the believer of the historical document takes the same stance as the evolutionist waiting for the right fossil to be found... perhaps additional evidence is actually buried out there somewhere, often it is found. To say simply "There is only one document claiming this, it must be false!" is simply unrealistic.
-Don.
Re:More to the point ... (Score:1, Insightful)
Just look at for instance the flood accounts that are consistent throughout all parts of the globe. What does it prove--that there really was a global flood. Just as the Bible says. Time and time again, archeologists are realizing that the Bible proves itself true again. Any archeologist digging in the middle east can easily (and actually does) use the Bible to get a clear idea of the areas they are investigating.
Truth is that Yahweh (i.e. Jehovah) is the true God, almighty, Creator of the universe, the earth, and all life. He has given us a book that we can rely on, that explains his purpose for the earth, his requirements for man, and his purposes for the future.
BTW, Josiah ripped his garments apart when scribes of his day found the original documents of Moses' day in the temple.
Re:More than one story that fits? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:More than one story that fits? (Score:5, Insightful)
hardly what you claim little political baggage.
secondly, the Nicene council was not put together by Constantine and Rabbis weren't invited because by this time, the delineation between Christians and Jews had been set. there were bishops already, and it was the bishops that were at the meeting, no one else.
thirdly. the 4 gospels were in fact written down by their authors as the original manuscripts have been dated to the first century AD. their truth value is of course limited because they contradict each other, but they were written to set Jesus up as a descendant of David so as to legitimize him.
you do not have to make up a bunch of crap about why the bible is a bunch of crap, because for the most part, the new testament is made of original scripts dated from the time the acts were made. most of the stories are embellished to either make a political statement, or to set up the hero as someone special. the only thing we can take from the bible is that these people probably did exist, and that the apostles did a good job of selling the philosophy and legacy of Jesus.
Re:Er, doesn't this claim require external evidenc (Score:3, Insightful)
No, my point was that the Pentateuch as it currently exists does not consist of the exact words Moses recorded.
The likelihood of Moses' original writings surviving to modern times are very small. In all probability, the original writings were copied, distributed, and even repeated orally to maintain the history of the people. I'm at work now and don't have access to my library, but a study of the language style does in fact suggest that the books were written much later than 1200 BC (quite possibly during the reign of King Josiah).
2 Chronicles 34 [gospelcom.net] contains the biblical account of his life. Specifically, it details how he was renovating the Temple and discovered a Book of the Law tucked away. It is clear from the text that the Law was not known among the people, was rediscovered, and then copied and distributed.
I'm not sure how familiar you are with 16th and 17th century english, but it's significantly different from our modern english. It would be understandable that spelling, grammar, sentence structure, etc, were rewritten and modernized for distribution to the general populace. As an example, compare the language of the original King James bible to that of the modern "New Living" translation.
In short, I'm not disputing the assertion that the texts are more modern than Moses. I simply disagree that the texts were significantly modified or wholly fabricated to prop up the reign of Josiah.
Re:why post when you don't know? (Score:4, Insightful)
Hm, do they talk about Atlantis as in "Large island, situated next to an even bigger continent which encompassed the whole ocean, the people of which invaded Northern Africa and Southern Europe and were defeated by the Greek about 9000 years B.C." ?
Or do they talk about it as in "big city in the sea, Gods angry, city sunk" ?
There are several candidates for "the city that inspired the myth of Atlantis", Santorini being the most credible one. It is even possible to imagine that Atlantis and other myths about Atlantic islands refer to real locations (be it Madeira, Capo Verde or even American archipelagos). Nevertheless it is still much more plausible that Plato made the whole thing up.
There are spirals that are found on rocks in Celtic ruins, in Spain, in North Africa and also on ruins in the American Southwest! The Hopi say these are 18 year moon-cycle calanders for observing the cycles of the moon. And yet pick up a book on the Celts and the authors don't know what these are.
Are you seriously telling us that because two people use spirals, they must have the same function ? Regardless of the fact that they are separated by a whole ocean and a whole continent, and that their last common ancestor was probably among the first modern humans to come out of Africa ? Not only that, but are you seriously ridiculing authors who do not mention this "possibility" ?
The Zuni's of the American Southwest have recently been shown to most likely have been decendant from Buddist pilgrims from Japan
No they have not. This hypothesis was stated by a given researcher, based on significant evidence, and may well be true. But as of now there has been no DNA study or archeological finding to prove this theory.
That's your problem. You don't understand the meaning of the word "show". That's why the "mafia" (i.e. people a bit more cautious than you) look down on you and your ilk, as they should. That's also why they hold academic positions, and you don't.
Thomas-
Re:More to the point ... (Score:3, Insightful)
What do I mean by that? Probably not what you think.
I simply do not trust the validity of a book that has been handled, mishandled, and passed through so many corrupt hands. We KNOW things have been added, removed, and generally manipulated.
That being said I do believe in God, but rather than read a book that may or may not be intact, I preffer to just goto the source. If I do the best I can in life and try my best that is about all I can do, if its not good enough, oh well....religion doesnt seem like a better alternative at the moment.
Re:More to the point ... (Score:2, Insightful)
In grography, a point is a point and a line is the shortest path between them. Those are essential truths. We have many truths that make up one reality, and the great irony is that those who consider themselves great thinkers and raise themselves above the great mass of unwashed dullards are the ones most likely to fall for mystic unrealities and relativistic concepts. Meanwhile, the simple farmer knows that he has to work the field or crops won't grow, the Wal-Mart cashier knows she has to go to work or her kids won't eat, and Slashdot elitists tell them they're stupid because they believe in God or voted for Bush.
Now, for the truth. Is the point of this weak-kneed troll within the article to deride the Biblical flood story? Then consider this:
The Bible alleges that a flood covered the entire earth.
The majority of cultures with extant written records (and many with verbal records) recall a great flood.
Does that make the "flood myth" a myth - or perhaps a fact?
To once again turn this back on topic somehow - yes, there is one answer to the legend of Atlantis out there. The key is somehow to separate the fact from the myth.
The Mythic Civilisation that was (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Er, doesn't this claim require external evidenc (Score:3, Insightful)
The thing is, everyone knows the Bible was written by men. A Christian believes that the writers were inspired by God, that the message is life to those who hear it, and that it is the key to knowing and having a relationship with God.
I encourage you to ignore all of the social issues, controversies, and right-wing chatter about the bible, and just read it with an open mind. Start with the book of 1st John, and if you like that then read the Gospel of John.
Re:More than one story that fits? (Score:1, Insightful)
Picking holes in a collection of manuscripts, letters, and historical records isn't going to alter the religous beliefs of a single person.
Believers will think you're a wanker, and non-believer will agree with you. Who cares.
It's SlashDot, not a public forum for religous debate. Religon is not a scientific theory to be debated, it's a faith, you can't prove or disprove a faith that's based on a personal, invisible, unmeasurable relationship with a God.
Lets stick to other religous arguments like those involving Linux!
Re:More to the point ... (Score:3, Insightful)
The Religious Right doesn't care how Jesus lived, or what he taught. They only start paying attention to the Bible at all at the start of Revelation.
Comment removed (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:More to the point ... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:More to the point ... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:More than one story that fits? (Score:1, Insightful)
What's most silly about them working so hard to tie Jesus' decendence to David is that he's, of course, also claimed to be of virgin birth. Why bother with the conflicting, contorted lineage records linking Jesus to David via Joseph when much of the religion hangs its hat on the belief that he isn't related to any man at all?
Screwy stuff.