Navy ELF to Be Scrapped 454
engywook writes "National Public Radio and The Daily Press of Ashland, Wisconsin (among others, I'm sure) are reporting that the US Navy plans to scrap the Extremely Low Frequency (ELF) system for communication with its fleet of nuclear submarines, both in Wisconsin and Michigan. The report states that the Navy no longer feels that ELF is necessary, and that they will now rely on 12 VLF systems. The system has been in operation since October 1989. The system has been protested nearly the whole time, both as a part of a Weapon of Mass Destruction and as a potential health hazard."
Re:Superceded (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Superceded (Score:3, Informative)
ELF (Score:5, Informative)
Of course, the first haphazard search I tried came up with this. [wikipedia.org]
Re:Superceded (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Superceded (Score:3, Informative)
The most advanced submarines in regard to this are currently the fuel cuel boats by HDW [www.hdw.de]. They neither emit noise nor leave a heat trace. Oh, and they are not american.
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Re:Superceded - reality check (Score:2, Informative)
Even with the new classes of submarines [naval-technology.com], you would end up using diesel subs as intelligent mines; almost stationary in relation to the target, which must practically run over them to do itself harm.
Re:Superceded - reality check (Score:2, Informative)
Hubris indeed. It's easy to get your ass kicked by a foe you don't respect.
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Russians have one too on 82 Hz (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Superceded (Score:5, Informative)
That means we have to run all kinds of noisy gear that we normally don't (or only do when we're sure nobody is around) when non-US subs are about.
In addition, we frequently have "prospective" commanding officers play captain-for-a-day during the exercises to get some experience before we let them loose by themselves on a sub where, essentially, they're an absolute ruler.
The interesting thing is, we don't lose EVERY time, or even MOST of the time.
Re:Superceded (Score:3, Informative)
Basically, in order to locate you in three dimensions, the GPS receiver needs to be able to see four satellites. (It's actually locating you in four dimensions: X, Y, Z, and time) It's possible you could knock out enough satellites that there were not four visible in the sky at all times, thereby making GPS unavailable in certain regions at certain times. Those patches of inactivity would be pretty tricky to predict, though.
Re:Superceded - reality check (Score:1, Informative)
Almost certainly. Without intending any disrespect to the Australians or any other allied country that scores a hard-earned kill against a US sub
Even so, US subs are hard to detect, and killing two of them is an accomplishment. Good for the Australians.
Its not just aquatic mammals... (Score:3, Informative)
Ballistic Subs (Score:1, Informative)
Which is exactly how the EP-3's work. They string their antenna out behind them when they are "loitering", receive instructions from the satellites and pass them onto the subs.
They have obviously come up with another viable system.
Re:Superceded (Score:5, Informative)
There are currently 29 GPS satellites in orbit, 24 functional and 5 spares to be used as backups. They are in 6 12-hour orbits to ensure that there are at least 4 satellites available from every position on earth at all times.
Basically, in order to locate you in three dimensions, the GPS receiver needs to be able to see four satellites. (It's actually locating you in four dimensions: X, Y, Z, and time).The satellites, however, not being in different times, cannot triangulate on your time, but instead assume that you are in the same time that they are in (A reasonable assumption). In fact, only three satellites are needed to triangulate on your 3-D position, but due to various atmospheric conditions that vary the amount of time for transmission, and therefore vary the distance estimates, a fourth satellite is always used for error checking. With four satellites, you have four combinations of three satellites, with each combination giving you a 3-space estimate. You can then average these four estimates to get a more correct position. The more satellites, the more pieces of information you can apply to the problem, and the more correct your estimate -- which is why seven is often the prefered number for most civilian applications. Even with seven, though, there are errors, so all data collected with GPS units should then be corrected by referencing it to a nearby base station with a known exact location on the earth's surface.
As for the other post that suggests the reason 3 can be used is because the system knows you are on the Earth's surface -- this assumption would be true if, 1) the system made such as assumption, and 2) the Earth's surface were smooth. Since the system locates the position of mountain climbers, forest rangers, cars on roads, and airplanes in the sky, neither assumption can be made.
Re:Superceded (Score:3, Informative)
They are not. They are RADIO waves. (Extremely Low Frequency, and Very Low Frequency)
The deal is this; with a big antenna, the stratosphere, and (i think) the Earth's mantle can be used to reflect powerful but extremely low frequency (talking four, ten cycles a second... basically a subwoofer-like version of light) radio waves. The cool part about these waves is they go through most stuff, including a long distance under water where subs can hear them. (It's one-way communication.)
So the ELF system was used to send simple messages in code to submarines without risking the sub surfacing (or changing depth) and giving it away. Usually either launch orders or "surface for more detailed message".
The protesters had a problem with the tool as a means to call in a nuke launch, and since the ELF systems are up in the north woods without much staffing, it was a tempting target to sabatoge or protest and easier for the protesters to get to.
Since we are not on a hair trigger for nuke strikes and most of the "boomer" subs are being (or planned on) converted to missile launch platforms for Tomahawk and newer weapons systems... ELF isn't as important as it was during the Cold War.
Thus the cuts.
Re:Superceded - reality check (Score:3, Informative)
I think the US Pacific fleet Marines train in Alaska once in a while alongside the Army Rangers and mountain troops (Is the 10th Mountain Division still active btw?). The US Atlantic fleet Marines has no handy training ground except for the annual Norway exercises. So, keep humbling them! It'll do 'em some good.
I'm also reminded of a story a Marine on Guam told me once. He said that his platoon was taken into the jungle for a three week exercise. They did pretty well until the last night. The instructors were all Vietnam vets. They told the platoon to pick one member of the platoon to act as the target. They could pick any defensive position that they wanted. The trainers guaranteed that the target would be 'killed' in hand to hand combat with no one the wiser in less than 15 minutes.
The platoon decided to literally surround the guy standing shoulder to shoulder. 5 minutes into the exercise, they found out they failed. The instructors had placed a guy in a big banyan tree overlooking the compound. It was trivial for him to drop in, 'kill' the guy, and shinny back up into the tree. The jarhead who told me the story said it was one of the most humbling and educational experiences of his life.
I referenced this link in another part of this thread, but it bears repeating. Check out the veterans' proverbs floating around the 'Net that are known as Murphy's Laws of Combat [sh.udm.ru]. Very illuminating. And funny in a sick, twisted sort of way.
Re:Superceded (Score:2, Informative)
"ELF waves travel through the earth;"
I believe you are mistaken. I took an electomagentics course years ago, taught by someone who had worked at the Escanaba facility. He explained the system as dependant largely upon the geology of the area in which it was built, but as a means of reienforcing the waves projection against the atmosphere where it rebounded and reflected back to the earth in a wide scatter pattern. The idea was for a few large antenna to cover the entire surface of the earth, so that subs could pick it up anywhere, without having to be in a specific location. The wavelengths of several meters allowed it to easily penetrate a great deal of sea water, so depth was also not an issue. As far as surviving a nuclear war goes, that seems very unlikely. Without maintenance, I imagine the weather in the U.P. would destroy the Escanaba array in two or three good winters.
Re:Superceded Stealing and using codes real- time (Score:3, Informative)
Even so, once the compromise is discovered, the entire fleet would cease using the crypto, except for maybe a handful of decoys in the compromised area who'd continue feeding disinformation into the system to delay knowledged of the compromise. However, once the genereal oparea is told to cease using it, the compromise effectively is known. Even if the reported compromise is covered by HQ just self-censoring what it sends over the encrypted circuits, an enemy or defector using the crypto cannot use it beyond an predetermined, scheduled time block. Just as newsfeeds expire, so do crypto periods.
While it would be possible to steal crypto for a given period, they physical evidence (hard plastic, clear or dark, in clumps or packages that will be obviously missed if moved or remove), you generally cannot steal it now and use it later, for timeshifting (not exactly like TIVO, et al) would elminate the usefulness. Meaning: Crypto stolen for period 0600-1200 or whatever used AFTER that period simply won't work. They cyphers embedded in the transmission stream would ensure that improperly-embedded responses trigger a compromise alert.
Read some books out there (communications pubs, crypto books, communications security methods, and your imagination. It's not necessary to bribe anyone for information if you can reassemble or combine peripheral evidence. Read and re-read. The process I describe is not in itself super sensitve. The crypto IS. The physical protection of it IS. Stealing it is pointless, except to invite jail time.
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As for knowing where the sub is, subs have OpAreas just like surface ships do. The satellites would signal to as narrow an areas as possible, likely in bursts, over a short duration, and at random intervals so as to deny detection of the boat's locality if a trawler or signal-soaking craft is in the area by chance. Alternatively, the sub can release a trailing wire antena for maybe 2 miles, and collect instructions or messages. In a worst case, they could cut the cable and go deep and quiet in a threatening situation.
I would imagine that remote sensors or torpedo-like vehicles slip from the hull, trail or shadow the boat, and send and receive signals from a non-disclosing distance. It's what IIII would do if I had the valuable boats, the money, and the imagination I have now. We have predtors for ground crews, so why not remote off-board vehicles for expensive subs that might have to sit or hover (to keep sand out of certain cooling intakes) for extended periods, periodically degaussing (or doing other things to/for) their hull signature. A ROV would SIGNIFICANTLY enhance the privacy, security, safety, and stealth of ANY navy's subs, for a smaller price than innumerable anechoic tiling and rubber-mounting deck rafts.
David Syes
-Former Radioman (86-88)
-Armchair Tactical Action Officer before and after my 4-year stint in the USN
-recreational submarine designer (concepts)
-recreational/"otaku" DDG/DD designer (to embarrass the DDG-51 design (both flt I and II)
-aspiring fiction author (relying upon fact and disinformation available in many, many carefully selected texts available publicly)