Soviet Space Shuttle Found In Bahrain? 401
An anonymous reader writes "German news source Spiegel are reporting (english babelfish translation) that some TV journalists have found a seemingly abandoned Russian space shuttle in the Persian Gulf. It looks like it could be the atmospheric test demonstrator Buran OK-GLI which was in Sydney, Australia. Pictures here (external) and here (internal). Boy, what I would give to be able to sit in that seat and flip those switches!" Another reader, grm_wnr writes "German tabloid newspaper Bild reports that a russian Buran shuttle has been found in the Bahrain desert. Here is the story (in german, Google translation here). What's funny is that noone knows how it ended up there. At least the fate of one of the four Buran prototypes is now confirmed." There is not much confirmation on this, outside of a few pictures... let the reader beware.
Funny... (Score:2, Interesting)
Grain of Salt (Score:5, Interesting)
Is this the one that overran the runway way back w (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Funny... (Score:3, Interesting)
I had also heard a NASA engineer respond a little later saying that if the Russians asked for the plans for the shuttle, that he doubted that NASA would have said no.
Buran history (Score:5, Interesting)
I was amazed to learn that Buran flew into space completely by remote control. Kudos to the Russians for this feat.
- Leo
Re:Grain of Salt (Score:5, Interesting)
(Sorry, only German)
The Location is Secret. The Shuttle is only "parked" there.
A German Museum has bought it and is waiting to ship it to Germany. The Museum has bought many things like this in the past (Tupolew TU-144, a Concord...)
Re:Funny... (Score:5, Interesting)
It looks like the US shuttle on the outside, but inside it is totally different. Interestingly enough, in many ways it is superior to the US space shuttle - for example if could do everything automated - including the landing.
Re:Funny... (Score:5, Interesting)
What the Russians didn't publicize (Score:3, Interesting)
Of course, there's no way to prove that one way or the other but it does illustrate the fact that the soviets didn't have the "burden" of a free press to publicize when things went really haywire as this shuttle seems to have.
Re:How did I get here? (Score:5, Interesting)
Buran in Sydney (Score:5, Interesting)
The Buran in Sydney lacked the navigation avionics, leaving a rather large empty space in the deck below the cockpit. The Russians removed that before they exported the shuttle. The guide claimed the avionics were heavily borrowed from Russian ICBMs and had even included targeting data for U.S. sites.
It's sad that Buran failed as a tourist attraction.
Re:Funny... (Score:4, Interesting)
All the things that fly require a great deal of design "inside" to work well with what "outside". Similarities in COncorde and Tu144 and in Buran and "classic" shuttle are caused by aerodynamics. Both machines had to perform in identical environments so no wonder they come out looking the same. Kind of mechanical darvinism at work.
The only exception I know of is the B-29. Soviets got hold of several shut down over Europe and replicated it bolt-by-bolt (Tu-4?).
Re:What the Russians didn't publicize (Score:2, Interesting)
This would be a significant change to our established history of space exploration.
Re:What the Russians didn't publicize (Score:3, Interesting)
Even if it were true, the Soviets would have kept it under wraps. NASA underwent a lot of public crap whenever something blew up on the launching pad. In Soviet Russia all they had to do was tell Pravda to shut up and their space program looked flawless. If it never got out of Russia, how would we find out about it?
Re:Funny... (Score:5, Interesting)
The OP's examples (F-15/MiG-29 and Shuttle/Buran) are pretty poor; they look similar only to one who is not familiar with them.
Re:Grain of Salt (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:What the Russians didn't publicize (Score:3, Interesting)
Because all the proofs are burried deep in the archives of the KGB.
However, the Russian media wrote about this [pravda.ru] (in English)
Re:Funny... (Score:4, Interesting)
Corrections welcome of course, but it's been 20 years & you'd have thought that someone would have turned up a picture if buran had really made it to orbit.
Re:Funny... (Score:5, Interesting)
This is true. The Russians has NASA's 10+ years of experience behind them when they were working on the Buran. As such, they avoided several points which made the shuttle such a difficult craft. A few items:
- The Buran had no launch engines. All lift power was provided by the Energia it was strapped to.
- The Buran had more advanced computers with real-time control abilities instead of the "key in the program" design of the shuttle.
- The Buran stack was lighter due to the single-booster design.
- The complexity lost in the single-booster design meant that turn-around times would have been far faster than the shuttle.
- Future versions of the design would have made the Energia booster able to fly back to Earth and be reused.
All of this did come at a price, however. IIRC, the Russian program was about twice as expensive in R&D as the US program. As for the aerodynamics, my understanding is that the Russians did have stolen shuttle specs as a reference. Even if they didn't, they still had a large collection of photographs from which they could divine the areo-shell design. As a result, the Buran was nearly an exact aerodynamic copy of the space shuttle.
And for anyone who thinks that may have been a coincidence, think again. There was no need for the Russians to have built a large cargo craft. They already had excellent cargo boosters, so they could have built a man rated vehicle for much less. They built the Buran to compete with the shuttle on every point, but did it in such a way as to show that Russian design was "better".
That being said, I'd love to see the Energia program revitalized. With those rockets, we could have cut the costs of ISS construction several fold!
Re:it goes back in time awhile........ (Score:2, Interesting)
see also this: http://www.astronautix.com/craft/dynasoar.htm [astronautix.com].
by the time the soviet union was developing the buran, these designs were well known in their basic terms; they might as well have obtained some classified data by the usual avenues.
THe key issue tough, and one that plagues the shuttle as well to this day, is the thermal shock of reentry and the cumbersome combination of tiles that covers the whole surface. in the article, it is stated that this, apart from the sensor tecnhology required, was the major anticipated obstacle to a full development of the Dynasoar military lifting body.
Re:What the Russians didn't publicize (Score:3, Interesting)
Leonov is very frank in talking about the censorship that occurred during this period and has no reason to perpetuate any lies.
Re:Funny... (Score:1, Interesting)
Come on, every launch by one side is tracked by another side. Buran flew to the orbit once allright. Landed automatically, too. No people onboard though.
Is the Russian gov making good money? (Score:2, Interesting)
revolutionary WIKIPEDIA! (Re:Funny...) (Score:2, Interesting)
PAT
Re:Funny... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Buran in Sydney (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Funny... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Funny... (Score:3, Interesting)
1. The work was based in part on non-classified US shuttle information that was publicly available.
2. The US design was already tried, tested, and known to work. Why do something new when you can duplicate? The Soviets were very good at this; e.g. quickly copying the jet engines they were given during the 1950s, even going so far as to secretly collect metal shavings dropped on the floor by machining tools at the engine factory in England to find out what thte turbine blades were made from.
3. Convergence. This is an evolutionary principle which states that often, recurring similar solutions will arise spontaneously when two different organisms evolve to fill the same niche or accomplish the same goals, even if they evolved in separate parts of the world with no genetic exchange taking place. In other words, what engineers find works for a given goal in country/company A will also often come up as the best solution selected by engineers in country/company B. The principles of science and nature are absolutes the world over.
More on the history of Buran:
Buran - In Depth History [astronautix.com]
Re:Funny... (Score:3, Interesting)