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Space

Genesis Capsule Crashes; Chutes Blamed 656

Cyclotron_Boy writes "The Genesis probe (reported here) has crashed to the ground, near a road in the Utah desert. The stunt chopper pilots were not to blame, though. The drogue chute didn't open on re-entry. NASA TV is covering it currently. The choppers have landed near the probe, but no word yet as to the condition of the space dust." Many readers have also pointed to CNN's coverage. Update: 09/08 16:39 GMT by J : MSNBC has more coverage and a sad photo of the half-buried capsule: "The capsule broke open on impact. It was not yet clear whether the $260 million Genesis mission was ruined."
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Genesis Capsule Crashes; Chutes Blamed

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  • On MSNBC Too! *sigh* (Score:2, Interesting)

    by darth_MALL ( 657218 ) on Wednesday September 08, 2004 @12:36PM (#10190718)
    A tad depressing to see the story posted to MSNBC [msn.com] with the headline OOPS. I'm sure the engineers are glad to see their multi-million dollar failure taken so lightheartedly.
  • by Buran ( 150348 ) on Wednesday September 08, 2004 @12:37PM (#10190746)
    I also have to wonder about the pyro heaters for the chutes. If you've seen Apollo 13, you know there was worry that the heaters, which had been turned off to save power, might not have been able to heat the chutes enough before re-entry to keep them functional.

    That mission defied the odds, the chutes deployed (all of them!) and it landed. Looks like fate may have finally caught up.
  • Who? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by solarlux ( 610904 ) <noplasma@@@yahoo...com> on Wednesday September 08, 2004 @12:39PM (#10190784)
    I recognize that Lockheed Martin was the prime contractor on this project, but anyone know who built the parachute subsystem?
  • by smooth wombat ( 796938 ) on Wednesday September 08, 2004 @12:42PM (#10190857) Journal
    While CNN and others are now posting pictures of the mangled capsule partially buried in the Utah soil, does anyone know if there is footage of the whole event? By that I mean seeing the capsule hurtling through the atmosphere and then impacting?

    Would be interesting to see from a physics standpoint how something looks impacting the earth when travelling at high speed.

    And please, let's dispense with the "It looks like a blob going SPLUT! How do you think it looks?" comments.
  • Hilarity ensued. (Score:3, Interesting)

    by AtariDatacenter ( 31657 ) on Wednesday September 08, 2004 @12:45PM (#10190903)
    I have to say, this has all of the elements for a funny story. You've got NASA, you've got a probe named Genesis [for your Star Trek Genesis Device reference], you've got sand [for your Star Wars reference -- sand people, probe looking like Luke's home from a distance, etc]. You've got space dust [for your Andromeda Strain reference]. You've got helicopters [for a military reference]. You've got an impled "mission accomplished!" presidental reference.

    I think the people at fark.com [fark.com] have all the angles covered.
  • by BTWR ( 540147 ) <americangibor3@ya[ ].com ['hoo' in gap]> on Wednesday September 08, 2004 @12:45PM (#10190904) Homepage Journal
    "Genesis" projects... they always seem to fail...

    NASA's attempt this morning

    Star Trek II

  • by Samurai Cat! ( 15315 ) on Wednesday September 08, 2004 @12:51PM (#10190994) Homepage
    I'm admittedly largely ignorant of the Genesis project and the issues recovering it, but...

    Couldn't they have possibly gotten that probe into an orbit that a shuttle could have matched, and recover the probe that way?

    Granted, it could be a while before a shuttle could be tasked to such a recovery, but one could think they could put the probe into a reasonably stable orbit to wait until that time.
  • Re:Failure timeline (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 08, 2004 @12:55PM (#10191045)
    A very likely cause is that the tumbling cause the decelleration sensor to be incorrectly oriented. The trigger for the parachute sequence is almost certainly a single-axis accelerometer, and if the capsule is not aligned properly, it will never see the proper acceleration, and this never trigger the sequence.

    There is absolutely no indication that the sequence ever started. The heat shield is still attached, and none of the recovery system covers separated before impact.

    Brett
  • by ARRRLovin ( 807926 ) on Wednesday September 08, 2004 @12:59PM (#10191121)
    Is anyone else surprised at how slow the probe was traveling when it hit the earth. That "tumbling/rotating" did a good job of slowing it. Maybe next time they can try an airbag system or something else that is less problematic than a mortar fired parachute system.
  • by Dr. Zowie ( 109983 ) <slashdotNO@SPAMdeforest.org> on Wednesday September 08, 2004 @01:12PM (#10191316)
    The reports that the re-entry vehicle was seen to be tumbling rather than spinning properly makes me wonder if sloppy thinking about rigid body kinematics [csuchico.edu] came into play yet again? Spinning objects often behave in tricky, counterintuitive ways, and even in a mission of this scale it would not be too surprising to find that the spacecraft tumbled when the engineers intended it to spin smoothly.


    If true, it would not be the first time -- by a long shot -- that the strange behavior of spinning objects caused trouble for a spacecraft. Some of the early three-axis-stabilized satellites were made into inadvertent spinners after their launch stabilization spin made them flip upside down (so that their de-spin rockets made them go faster instead of slowing them down!). SOHO [nasa.gov] was nearly lost in 1998, in part because rotational precession rotated the craft so that the solar panels were in long-term twilight.


    Here's hoping there's something left for the team to analyze. Three years in space plus ten years of planning and lobbying is a long time to wait.

  • Re:Failure timeline (Score:5, Interesting)

    by RobertB-DC ( 622190 ) * on Wednesday September 08, 2004 @01:16PM (#10191365) Homepage Journal
    A very likely cause is that the tumbling cause the decelleration sensor to be incorrectly oriented. The trigger for the parachute sequence is almost certainly a single-axis accelerometer, and if the capsule is not aligned properly, it will never see the proper acceleration, and thus never trigger the sequence.

    I thought it was interesting that the acceleration has to go past 3 gees to *arm* the device, then back below three gees to actually *deploy* it. Miss #1 and you don't get armed, and you leave a crater. Miss #2 and you get armed, leave a crater, *and* a little surprise for the recovery crew. Is this a new design, I wonder, or is this a tried-and-true method that's worked better than anything else so far?

    By the way, "Brett", why not go ahead and log in? It's (virtually) painless!
  • by strictfoo ( 805322 ) <strictfoo-signup AT yahoo DOT com> on Wednesday September 08, 2004 @01:25PM (#10191495) Journal
    Poor planning: priceless

    Another NASA probe named Stardust is due to return to the Utah Test and Training Range in 2006, bearing samples of cosmic dust from a comet's wake. Stardust uses a similar parachute system to brake its descent. However, the Stardust capsule is designed to be cut loose from its parachute and survive impact.

    "Yeah, let's just put that failsafe on one of the two probes." - Good call NASA
  • Re:Failure timeline (Score:5, Interesting)

    by autophile ( 640621 ) on Wednesday September 08, 2004 @01:26PM (#10191508)
    Starting about 1045 GMT, the spacecraft spins itself up to 10 revolutions per minute. The spinning will provide the unguided sample return capsule with additional stability during entry. The spacecraft then rotates to the proper orientation for release and spins up to 15 revolutions per minute.

    When I was watching the thing via the long-range camera on NASA TV, it looked to me that, even when the capsule was just a bright dot with changing luminosity, it was spinning at much higher than 15 rpm. More like 60 - 80 rpm. At that point, I figured what I'd see next...

    I'm just surprised the crater wasn't bigger, and that the impact was at only 100 mph. --Rob

  • by JUSTONEMORELATTE ( 584508 ) on Wednesday September 08, 2004 @01:38PM (#10191711) Homepage
    I watched it on nasaTV's webcast, and there wasn't a shot of the ground as it hit, more like this:
    Shot of sky. They're saying there's a dot in the sky, but it just looks like sky to me.
    Shot of sky. One of the static bits seems to stay put more that the rest of the static.
    Shot of sky with dot.
    Dot becomes triangle thingy, looks like it's spinning
    Spinning thing gets bigger, more in focus.
    Spinning thing has a saucer-ish shape, is now seen to be tumbling, not just spinning. (voice over at this point is saying something to the effect that the parachute hasn't deployed.)
    Bigger, better focus.
    Even bigger, still better focus.
    Ground.

    It was obvious that the camera operator was focused on the craft, getting the best shot possible of it for as long as possible. As a result, the ground was very surprising when it flashed into the frame. :(
    --
    GMail invites for iPod referrals [slashdot.org]
  • Re:Hold off on blame (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Performer Guy ( 69820 ) on Wednesday September 08, 2004 @01:40PM (#10191735)
    No, let's blame.

    This mission was NOT cheap, it was infinitely expensive on the cost/benefit scale. That is NOT a good thing, it's a bloody tragedy.

    Having accountability is a good thing. How tricky is it to deploy a frikin parachute? Missions been doing this for years on all sorts of craft, I do it a dozen times on the weekend, and NASA can't get this right? I'm frustrated and annoyed. A quarter of a billion dollars down the Swanee because they can't get a frikin pyro to fire. Damned idiots, what happened to checking/testing mission critical systems?

    NASA seemse to be continuously outdoing itself these days in it's level of incompetence.
  • Re:Failure timeline (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Afrosheen ( 42464 ) on Wednesday September 08, 2004 @02:13PM (#10192180)
    Makes perfect sense, but also makes you wonder just how difficult it would have been to install an "Oh Shit" remote trigger, just in case. I mean, a 200+ million dollar project might need a little manual intervention.

    The stunt team could have hit a big red button, causing the probe's parachute to deploy, then swoop down for the capture. The whole mission seemed kinda wacky in the first place, with the helicopter and all. I wonder who sat down and decided it'd be a good idea.

    Also you have to wonder HOW the damn thing hit land to begin with. Isn't 70% of the Earth's surface covered with water? You have a 3 in 10 chance of hitting land if this is true.
  • by Overzeetop ( 214511 ) on Wednesday September 08, 2004 @02:17PM (#10192241) Journal
    From the medial package:

    "Lockheed Martin Space Systems, Denver, Colo., designed, built and operates the spacecraft, and is overseeing the capture and return of the Genesos sample capsule."

    I say that, since we're all about accountablity, that Lockheed Martin pony up the cash they lost through insufficient engineering. It doesn't matter whether is shipped on time, in budget, with purple wings, whatever - the fact is that it failed. If we pay L-M, it will be an indication that the Federal Government is simply handing checks over to corporations.

    On a side note, I happen to know both Alphonzo Diaz and Orlando Figueroa, though I was sufficiently separated from them by management layers that I'm sure they don't remember me. They were both pretty nice guys. It's a shame this didn't work out for them.

  • missing money (Score:4, Interesting)

    by rkanodia ( 211354 ) on Wednesday September 08, 2004 @03:03PM (#10192911)
    The organization hemmorrhages millions of dollars and they don't know where.

    Compared to the 2.3 trillion dollars that the Pentagon can't find [cbsnews.com], I'd say NASA is one of our more efficient agencies.
  • Re:Failure timeline (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Illserve ( 56215 ) on Wednesday September 08, 2004 @05:00PM (#10194468)
    There's a good reason people are upset.

    It's because of Apollo.

    Even without considering the technology difference between now and 1960's, this is a relative cakewalk to the miracles they performed in getting Men to and from the moon several times without a single fatality.

    And when you consider the difference in materials and instrumentation, it's an even worse comparison.

    NASA maybe be underfunded, but they are still screwing up on the things they are doing. We are beyond the point at which bringing an unmanned satellite down from orbit should be troublesome.

  • by rtboyce ( 145916 ) on Thursday September 09, 2004 @09:59AM (#10200021)
    Slowing the craft into orbit would've required a rocket and propellant, and therefore a much bigger and more expensive spacecraft. Fetching it from orbit would've required an expensive operation, with risks. Far cheaper and simpler to have the craft bring itself straight in. And that worked except, critically, for the chutes.

    I wonder if someone forgot to remove a safety device? It could be something as absent-minded as that. What's worrying is that that the Stardust mission has the same chute system...

    The only thing to do now is to build Genesis II. It will cost less than the first.

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