Should SETI Be Looking For Lasers Instead? 694
colonist writes "Frank Drake, creator of SETI's famous equation, says the detection of extraterrestrial radio signals won't work, because Earth's own radio signal will only be around for 100 years. More and more of Earth's communications use cable and satellites, with no radio-frequency leakage to space. Instead, we should be looking for intentional signals in the form of high-powered lasers that could 'outshine the sun by a factor of 10,000'. Meanwhile, Paul Davies writes that we should be conducting SETI in our DNA. In turns out that an alien message designed to last millenia should be 'inside a large number of self-replicating, self-repairing microscopic machines programmed to multiply and adapt to changing conditions', otherwise known as living cells. Are we the message?"
Optical SETI (Score:5, Interesting)
Optical (ie: laser detection) SETI has been up and running for a while now (see Optical SETI overview [seti.org] for example). Drake ought to declare an interest though, since he's one of the investigators on the project.
It's a reasonable argument, but it's far harder to set up optical "listening" posts than radio ones. It cost me about 1000 uk pounds (WHY is the pound symbol banned from
The counter argument of course is that to detect laser light, the remote civilisation have to be pointing their laser at us, whereas with radio it doesn't matter since it's not a directed beam. Against that you have to offset the time-period over which transmissions of either kind could be made...
The chances of getting a radio contact may be a few orders of magnitude lower than getting an optical contact, but since the chances of me setting up an optical SETI station are precisely 0, the chances of getting 'the' signal with radio is infinitely greater than with optics, at least for me
Simon
Are we the message? (Score:5, Interesting)
We should decode viruses too (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Optical SETI (Score:5, Interesting)
The real alien DNA (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:We should decode viruses too (Score:2, Interesting)
We don't need to search there.
Quoted from the article: The cargo would be designed to infect, without harm, any DNA-based life it encountered.
There, they KNOW that we are a DNA-based life form, universally sprung from a watery solution, the salty sea. Like we all know, that harmless DNA can be engineered quite easily. That's why I don't understand that all the rocks from the moon (and mars) are in quarantine
I had an idea like this a while back. (Score:3, Interesting)
I think we would probably be able to program organisms from scratch by that point, so what kind of organisms would you send to establish life on a distant planet? It would probably start off small, or virus like, but would need to be preprogrammed to evolve into something more complex. Since the evolution would be random, you really couldn't determine the outcome after billions of years.
Then it occurred to me that if we were going to go through all this trouble for a slight chance that these packets of life might just thrive and grow some brains, we would probably put some kind message in there. Then it occurred to me that we could possibly be the product of such a plan.
It is possible that the structure of the genetic code itself is an artificial creation of an advanced race. Maybe we should examine the fossil record to look for patterns in the earliest life on the planet. Maybe humans got an evolutionary speed pass to intelligence. Who knows? At any rate understanding the underlying structure of genetic programming would be necessary for understanding the rational behind choosing one structure over another. Just like programmers develop an understanding of the language they program in, perhaps we'll see some calculated order to it all.
Re:We are the message. (Score:3, Interesting)
Simple, regardless of whatever else has gone on there; they have developed some really cool technology that has kept our country safe and free.
The U2, SR-71, F-117A and B2 were all flown at Area 51 during tests. Who knows what other cool shit [abovetopsecret.com] is out there. Guess we'll find out in 40 years.
LK
Re:A different mode of life. (Score:3, Interesting)
As for the other gasses we don't know here - we know all the elements that exist and many that don't exist (ones that we created in labs but don't exist in nature) so we have a pretty solid idea of what possible gasses there are out there. Oxygen breathing, carbon based, water dependent life is possible since we've seen it (us). Carbon and water have special and unique properties that make them ideal for creating life as we know it. If we start looking for "whatever" how will we know we've found it?
Quantum SETI (Score:5, Interesting)
Anyone know about beam splitting entangled pairs etc. Many moons ago, Einstein, Podolski, and Rosen carried out there unusual experiment whereby the they observed what is now known as quantun weirdness. A photon in an entangled state could be split using a sophisticated 50:50 beam splitter. Each split photon could travel off in opposite directions and appear to be twins, in the sense that any change in behaviour of one would instantly (exactly synchronized regardless of distance!!!) be felt by the other, its twin.
Evidence that this was no fluke is gathering thanks to continuing experiments, yet it is still not in stone.
My reasoning is that if this phenomenan is genuine, it could be one way extraterrestrials would chose to contact us. Why not. They send a conventional optical signal, only this time encased in a surrounding cylindar of light, thus allowing for the entangled photons charateristic properties to be influenced only by this cylinder of light. Allot can till go wrong so conceivably, the 'ET's' would send a large stream of such light cylinders- the centre of which is a stream of entangled photons. That way any measurement of the entangled photon would cause an immediate change to its twin (The twin photon - of entangled pair)would presumably be archived on the alien world bouncing back and forth in a cavity (not unlike the cavities we use today - only presumably far more advanced.) So, once change is observed, an immeditae alarm bell is triggered. The ET's can know instantly someone/something has comeinto contact with their signal. Just like Earth SETI, the ET SETI would categorise all their findings and have mant false positives. They would probably already have chartered the area of space to which they send a signal. They may know the only objects (meteorites, stars, planets, commets...) that are likely influences over the transmitted light signal. Hence, if we Earthlings intercept the light in a very manufactured manner (i.e fire a encoded light signal of our own into theres, they are likely to get some unusual data back at there end - instantly.
Anyway, lets face you can't have an interest in SETI without being imaginative.
All Im tring to say is.
1) If I were a highly advanced ET, I would use Quantum entaglement (if it is indeed feasible) to transmit photons of light.
2)I believe we should start sending entangled photons of light, encased in our own manufactured cylinders of background light, out into space.
3)I hope SETI read this.
Should SETI Be Shut Down Instead? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:This reminds me of a saying... (Score:1, Interesting)
Perhaps.. but I think the point you were trying to get at is that there most probably is e.t. life out there..
If you take the size of the universe into consideration, then the probability of life outside earth becomes much higher. It's the religious types that believe that we are some sort of special-case that only happened because of god. A more scientific treatment would lead one to realize that there's nothing particularly special about our existence or our home planet.
Just another ordinary planet in the middle of an ordinary galaxy. Since we can only measure time as a function of light-space since the last big-boom, then we can't really know if there's been several or an infinite number of big booms/implosions before us. We just don't have the capacity. Yes, the thought of aliens is pretty silly if you think of little green men. But if you think of it as the probability of life existing, then it should not be surprising to find that it is so.
Mod me -1 nutcase, but I have a photo of a UFO that was taken @ machu picchu, peru, a location which is known for its UFO sightings. Thing is, I would have been a total skeptic if this photo was never taken. The photo was actually supposed to be just a normal run-of-the-mill portrait of my uncle and his wife (this was back in the 70s). Once they developed the photo, though, low and behold there was a UFO hanging out between the mountains.
Since you might want to see this picture, here it is. I'll take the link offline if it gets tremendously slashdotted, but here it goes: ufo picture [justroots.com]
YOU FUCKING RETARD!! (Score:2, Interesting)
It just so happens that part of maintaining a credible threat is to make it difficult for the ones enemies to precisely ascertain one's capabilities. This is why places like area 51 are necessary. That people watch Independance Day (OF ALL THE FUCKING STEAMING LOADS!) and think that "Hey, if Randy Quade plays a character who says he was ass-raped by aliens who are we to say it didn't happen..." is proof that a program of euthenasia tied to intelligence testing isn't entirely without merit. Why the hell you people can't satisfied with rubbing quartz on your chakras and keeping your retardation to yourselves I'll never understand.
And the moderators. What the hell. "Yeah, maybe there are aliens who traveled a million trillion miles to scare farmers shitless and turn cows inside out. Who's to say...?" GOD DAMMIT!
Ever seen Casshern? (Score:3, Interesting)
That's almost exactly what the movie suggests: that we are a message and we can pass the same message onward. Won't say too much lest I ruin the movie for yall though, as much as I realize it has but a small chance of ever making it to the states. (wonders about the prospects of Cutie Honey in the same vein.)
Absolutely absurd! (Score:2, Interesting)
The beauty of this scheme is that ET wouldn't have to visit Earth to implant the message. A lot of junk DNA consists of genomic fragments inserted by viruses over the course of evolution. An alien civilisation could, for negligible cost, dispatch tiny packages across the galaxy, loaded with customised viral DNA. The cargo would be designed to infect, without harm, any DNA-based life it encountered.
It's patently foolish to believe an intelligent species would try to write a message in the genes of a developing species remotely from another star in the blind hopes that the virus doesn't wipe out the entire population instead. It's just silly. And who's to say which species the super intelligent shades of blue wrote the message in? Perhaps they thought another species altogether was bound to become dominant on this planet instead of man.
Wait! Could THIS be the real reason the dinosaurs went extinct! (^_-)
Re:Are we the message? (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:Optical SETI (Score:2, Interesting)
Come to think of it, this may be a very viable option for sending a "hello universe" via optical means.
Heck, maybe pulsars ARE hello world messages.
Find omnidirectional source, send directional (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Optical SETI (Score:2, Interesting)
currency symbol.
The Euro currency is already officially in use in 12 countries and
over the next few years more countries in Europe will adopt it as
their official currency. It is also used unofficially in several
other countries.
The Euro is increasingly the preferred currency for
international travellors. For example coming to Ireland via
China in 2001 we converted money into US$, but now we are
advised to carry Euro.
-Nivag
Zindell's Neverness & Requiem for Homo Sapiens (Score:3, Interesting)
Rather than humans being "Children of the Gods", Zindell has a few of us becoming "gods" and makes an almost convincing case that it would be an inescapable development in a universe with FTL travel.
Paul Davies usually does a pretty good job of representing the perspective of mainstream physics, even adding a few details from his own work, but this time he really seems to have gone out on a limb. While it's a great idea for a SciFi plot, it isn't going to take too many more species' genome maps to make the null hypothesis look very safe.
Re:Optical SETI (Score:5, Interesting)
Actually, condition 3 is the only one that is necessarily true of all lasers. There are solid-state lasers with very wide bandwidths, thereby violating condition 2, and it is easy to expand or diffuse a laser beam, thereby violating condition 1.
To be honest, there is little point in creating an omnidirectional laser source, at least for SETI purposes, because that only degrades the signal-to-noise ratio. However, if you want to do so, it's pretty trivial: shine the laser beam into a high numerical-aperture microscope objective, and the wavefronts that emerge beyond the focal point will be an excellent approximation of ideal spherical waves.
who goes first? (Score:2, Interesting)
It could be we have a host of semi advanced civilisations like ours, all sitting around in passive reception mode, waiting for someone to contact them.
Re:Optical SETI (Score:4, Interesting)
Hmm, not actually sure if this is correct. This is going back a bit but I think:
Laser stands for Light Amplification by the Stimulated Emission of Radiation.
A LASER doesn't produce light because of waves contructively interfering. The light is amplified by the absorbtion and emission of photons at specific wavelengths.
There are two types of photon emission, spontaneous and stimulated.
Spontaneous emission occurs when an electron in an atom "jumps" from a higher quantised state to a lower one giving up energy. This energy is emitted as a photon. This is what happens in street lights, electrons fall back to a lower energy level and that corresponds exactly to the wavelength of the orange light we see. The photon can be emitted in any direction.
Stimulated emission occurs when an atom absorbs a photon causing an electron to move to a "higher" state but in this case the electron can immediately jump back to it's lower state. This causes two photons to be emitted in exactly the same direction as the original photon was travelling.
Essentially a LASER works by putting mirrors round a cavity and multiplying the photons by bouncing them back off the mirrors and into the emitting atoms thereby causing a "chain reaction" to take place where two become four etc.
The reason that you get monochromatic light (normally) is that the wavelength of the photons produced is exactly related to the energy levels in the atom producing them. The reason you get coherent light is because the photons are travelling in the same direction.
IWAPIU (I was a physicist in Uni) and built a Nitrogen LASER for my final year project. That was a good 8 years ago now though.
Replicators (Score:3, Interesting)
If we were the message, it would have long ago mutated as to be undecipherable. The message was destroyed by SG-1 and the those gray aliens in last seasons Stargate. Seriously, DNA wouldn't be my choice, but a self replicating nanobot designed to reproduce with extreme fidelity would be more suitable for a message. Unfortunately, uncontrolled replication could have disastrous results.
Re:Are we the message? (Score:4, Interesting)
A comment on the intro bit... Searching for an easily controlled and powerful phenomenon, like electromagnetic radiation, is a smart tactic at least for starters. As the tech gets more sophisticated in terms of control and detectability (LASERs), the challenge is greater.
But who is this Paul Davies guy, and whose ass did he pull the SETI-in-DNA idea from? SETI has always been on the edge of SciFi-fringedom, but the jump from that to finding encoded messages in DNA leaves no shred of credibility. Here's why:
"The Bible Code". What the Bible Code showed us is that given a sufficiently large text, you can pretty much find anything you want. Your birthday, apocolyptic predictions, SETI-in-DNA ideas, etc. By changing the search algorithm (ignoring punctuation and vowels is the equivalent method used in the Bible Code for searching Hebrew IIRC) you artificially expand the chances of finding a self-confirming data sequence.
This isn't science -- it's a parlor trick.
Interesting.... (Score:3, Interesting)
How would we know if there was a message in our genomes? Presumably ET would make it easy for us to spot. Some sort of in-your-face pattern would be best, something that stood out from the random scatter of genetic letters.
I would posit that an ET intelligence smart enough to create a pattern in our DNA would also be smart enough to make the evidence of their existence readily apparent to even those without the ability to decode DNA. I mean, if the point of sending a message is to communicate, why would you require such sophisticated techniques to understand it, with the attendant risk of misinterpretation?
Replace ET with God, and you've got a good paraphrase of the "intelligent design" argument for God's existence.
I think what irks me the most is the assumption that aliens are trying to contact us. When we think about communication, there are some interesting principles:
- The sender of a message fulfills some need in sending the message. Perhaps it is a call for help; perhaps "they" need some more friends.
- A message is always sent with a reasonable expectation that the recipient will be able to understand it.
- The sender usually wants some sort of response from the recipient, even if it is merely an acknowledgement.
This leaves us with some fundamental problems regarding ET's contacting us with "sophisticated" techniques:- An alien intelligence seeking to make contact with other civilizations would probably choose the most easily recognized form of communication, not one which required sophisticated technology or a considerable degree of intelligence to decode.
- What purpose would such a message serve? If they are more advanced technologically, why would they contact us - we don't have anything that they need? If less so, then we would be able to decode their messages with ease.
- If "they" are sending messages, then surely they must already know, or strongly suspect, our existence. If this is the case, then why don't they already know how to communicate with us?
It would seem to me that if aliens were trying to contact us, we would have known it by know. I suspect that if SETI discovers any "intelligent signals", we'll come to discover that they were not intended for us to decode. Perhaps some alien military communications, or ARIA (Alien Recording Industry Association) encrypted music broadcasts, etc...Just a rhetorical exercise here: Would God qualify as the sender of such a message?
With what we know now, only our Creator would possess the knowledge of our existence, the desire to communicate, and the means to do so. I wonder if this occurs to the SETI team, or if they are trying to find God in outer space...
Caveat: Matter dispersion in the universe (Score:3, Interesting)
Maybe the universe isn't old enough. Seriously! Stuff like carbon, iron took multiple generations of stars (birth-to-supernova) to produce. Intelligent life that appeared approximately before the existence of Sol/Earth would have lived and died without the means to forge swords, much less spaceships. I believe our star is a fifth-generation, although my head is fuzzy on that number.
Human beings may just be the first creatures who have the chance at interstellar civilization. Either that, or we are going to be part of the first wave, developing simultaneously.
Re:Quantum entanglement does not allow FTL comms (Score:4, Interesting)
"Confirmation?" asks the observer, "I haven't sent you anything yet!" After all the light has not yet reached the observer, so how could he have sent the communication?
You're assuming there's such a thing as absolute time, which Special Relatively disproved.
So there is no such thing as T time. There is O(T) - Observer time. And R(T) - caR time. Let T0 be the time when the car flashes its headlights, and T1 be the time when the light from this flash reaches the observer.
So the car flashes it's headlights at R(T0). The observer sees the flash at O(T1). The observer then immediately sends an instantaneous message to the car, which is recieved at R(T1).
To both parties, at the time T1, the light ray from the headlights has reached the observer. The difference is that (R(T1) - R(T0)) > (O(T1) - O(T0)).
Your thought experiment assumes that there is a "universal time". So that one minute for the car is the same as one minute for the observer. This is incorrect.
Re:This reminds me of a saying... (Score:3, Interesting)
From an SF writer's viewpoint, this doesn't led to very interesting stories, so most of them have assumed some solution to the FTL problem. A few, such as Ursula LeGuin, have written stories in an "Einsteinian" universe, but have added the gimmick that FLT communication turns out to be possible. This does lead to more interesting universes than the one that we appear to live in, but even she does eventually give in and have someone discover FTL travel.
But it's quite likely that FTL travel or communication will never be possible in our universe. This does rather limit the possible contacts that we will have with any aliens. Some of the closest stars might just be possible, but with ping times measured in decades, travel isn't really practical, unless you accept the idea that when you get back home, everyone you ever knew will be long dead.
It would be interesting if we found that FTL communication but not travel is possible. Then we could have a galactic "network" and share ideas, but we couldn't go out conquering (and they couldn't conquer us). I think that if I were a cosmic engineer, that's the sort of universe that I'd build. Then a marginally intelligent but aggressive species couldn't wipe out all the other promising species in their neighborhood. How would you behave toward someone if you could exchange messages with them, but neither could ever reach the other physically?
Re:Quantum SETI (Score:3, Interesting)
So, having said that, history is filled with theories that are very accurate within their intended scope, but fail when applied to a different or expanded problem space. For example, when masses, distances, and speeds get astronomically large, Newton's mechanical theories need correcting.
As a quirky aside, IIRC relativity does not rule out faster than light travel. It does forbid acceleration to and beyond the speed of light, but that all hinges around mass. What about the possibility of massless phenomena? If photon entanglement doesn't involve the transmission of mass for communication, there's nothing in relativity that would prevent the communication from happening faster than light. The fact that we currently base all of our physics on mass movement may be limiting our imaginations here. (Or I may be full of it. I'm not a phycisist after all.)
~~Galen~~
Re:The real alien DNA (Score:3, Interesting)
Or, could it be that they thought some sort of DNA-based lifeform was out there somewhere, whatever nucleotides it was using. They could then send out their own self-replicating, very friendly, single-cell organism, which happens to have the incredible ability to create its own energy (given certain chemicals) all across the galaxy, knowing that a very simple DNA-based organism, if placed next to their designer bug, would eventually wind up incorporating it into its lifecycle such that it's permanent. We call them mitochondria. They made us a deal we couldn't refuse.
It kind of all fits (in a very sci-fi way) because mitochondria are not DNA-based, and their genome is incredibly well-preserved from generation to generation, with a very very slow mutation rate (we use it to date the spread of mankind from various ancestors). Perhaps their message isn't really a message like "Hi, we are your alien neighbors, look us up when you can read this" but is instead simply that they wanted to assist the development of life in the universe. Knowing that random nucleotides bumping into each other could eventually form life, but knowing that if they had a little mitochondria there it increased the chances and rate by 1000%, they seeded the galaxy with it as some way to put money in the bank. Maybe they eat brains of sentient beings, so they're "gardening". Maybe they just want some friends, or are very scientific and this is a grand experiment.
Re:Optical SETI (Score:2, Interesting)
man-made elements in the sun (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:What are we really hoping for? (Score:4, Interesting)
Unless the first ETs we encounter live in a different time dimension. What we consider couple of thousand years, might be a few minutes for them, who knows?
Re:DNA = Evidence of God (Score:2, Interesting)
1. The "creative intelligence" you speak of could just as easily be the blind process of natural selection. Just add a couple DNA pairs every 50 million years or so and you've got more than enough time to come up with a 6 billion-bit quaternary code, more or less optimized for the present, with a nice long "history of our evolution" message attached to it. This process requires no supernatural forces.
2. Depending on how you define God, it would seem exceedingly unfair for him/her to reveal themself through sub-microscopic code. There are millions of people living today who have no clue what DNA is, and BILLIONS of people who lived in ages past before DNA was even discovered. While the argument you post may hold true for some weird alien race or unthinking/uncaring God, it definately cannot be extended to any worshippable, caring, and fair Creator of sorts, having excluded the vast majority of humanity thus far with the choice of how to deliver the message.
To me, the idea that any kind of supernatural forces are in a dramatic ballet with mankind is the epitome of aristocentrism.
If it hasn't already been mentioned... (Score:3, Interesting)
The Law of Accelerating Returns by Ray Kurzweil [kurzweilai.net]
It offers a very well reasoned argument as to 1) why the technological singularity must occur, and 2) why SETI is likely a failure. Actually, I would suggest reading Vernor Vinge's writings on the singularity, then read Kurzweil's work above.
One should then read the story (posted at k5?) called "The Metamorphisis of Prime Intellect".
Finally, read Albert-Laszlo Barabasi's book "Linked" (network theory), Kevin Kelly's "Out of Control" and Steven Johnson's "Emergence" (emergence theory), and Stephen Wolfram's "A New Kind of Science" (The Principle of Computational Equivalence).
There are many more references, both fictional and non-fictional (for entertainment purposes only, I also suggest the anime "Serial Experiments: Lain") - but these which I have listed detail a staggering breadth of information which, after you have digested it and left it to simmer in your mind, just might change your opinions and worldview in radical directions.
Lastly - a plea for help: Does anybody here know of any papers or references from reputable sources which discuss why the singularity can't occur, or is wrong in some manner? I have only read one side of the debate, and I would like to hear the other.
Re:who goes first? (Score:2, Interesting)
With that said, I think they already are here,as in *here*, to me the point is moot, and one of the main reasons I know the government is a big fat liar in public. In private,I have had too many guys who would be in a position to actually know what they are talking about, off the record of course, clue me in. If it was just one, I'd say "eh, no way, war stories like fish stories", but several now,quite startling really, and besides what I saw when I was a teenager. One of the main reasons I am so much an "honesty with government please" ranter. Not the only reason, but a main reason.
Now I know I'll get ranked by the trolls, but oh well, it's real.