Lawyers In Space... 553
colonist writes "The Christian Science Monitor presents an interesting overview of space law. Some want space to be shared by all: 'Outer space is a province of all mankind. There is not, and should not be, any privatization of outer space. It is a common thing that should belong to all.' Some people have claimed parts of the moon or Mars. In response, a lawyer has claimed the sun, 'to show how ridiculous a property-rights system in outer space would be if it were based solely on claims unsubstantiated by any actual possession.' The Space Settlement Initiative wants official recognition of land claims made by those who establish human settlements on the moon or Mars."
Possession != Right (Score:4, Interesting)
Even actual possession does not give you a right to anything. Someone else may come along and kick your sorry ass off the land (or your space rock), as history has shown time and time again. These planets and stars have been around for billions of years, how can any Johnny-come-lately dare think any of it should belong to him?
Star Registry (Score:3, Interesting)
For those who want to claim the SUN and charge the rest of us an energy bill - well as long as you can build an office on the sun, you can have it
-A
"Lawyer has claimed the sun..." (Score:3, Interesting)
Space Law (Score:2, Interesting)
Heinlein/Roddenberry Did It! (Score:4, Interesting)
Heinlein's 'The Man Who Sold the Moon' [amazon.com]
TOS' 'Court Martial' [startrek.com].
A la Kubrick (Score:2, Interesting)
Space and commerce (Score:5, Interesting)
Until and unless a legal framework for ownership of assets (perhaps by being the first to land on them and remain for a period of time) exists, space will remain the preserve of a self-perpetuating government-academic elite and a dream for the common man - but that common man's taxes are what'll pay for it all still. Once space is opened up to industry, then ordinary people can move there, and only then.
Re:Headline dissappointed me.... (Score:2, Interesting)
I think it should be a constitutional amendment that Lawyers are not allowed to hold public office. If you pass the bar you have to sign something that says you will never be allowed to run for public office. Or at least have a restriction that you have to give up your certification for 10-20+ years.
Property rights in space (Score:2, Interesting)
a)Either humanity gets their asses kicked and the laws and laywers go down with the rest of the system
b) humanity adapts to the race and therefore stops landgrabbing, there goes capitalism as well in the long term These kind of things only can be applied as long as we run into no or technically and socially less developed civilizations. Therefore landgrabbing might be possible in our own solar system but can proof fatal in the long term future. Im pretty confident that a socially higher developed civilization would see our system of landgrabbing lawyers primitive and would try to influence us in the long term to get rid of it, onw way or the other. (The indians were socially much more advanced in this regard, but did not have the technical means to defend their points)
Re:So can I sue (Score:2, Interesting)
Sorry your argument doesn't hold up.
Re:Paradigm shift (Score:3, Interesting)
Government-based, private corporation colony-based, commune-based...doesn't matter. The principle is exactly the same. Can the entity wishing to be independent enforce that indpendence against the home power? FutureCorp may well have paid for the development of that project, but as coups followed by state takeovers here on Earth have already shown, the private company doesn't necessarily get to keep those assets in the case of political upheaval.
It purely comes down to whether the originating entity can exert enough force (armies, sanctions on food etc.) to bring the rebelling entity back to the fold. If it can't do that, and in space the distances and expense could make it a real problem, then FutureCorp's colony just became a formerly FutureCorps's colony and is free to strike out on its own.
Cheers,
Ian
Lawyers or Morons? (Score:2, Interesting)
Laws are based on structures built around the application of force (hence the phrase "force of law"). You just can't dream up a bunch of silly utopian-sounding dim-witted platitudes and have that become some sort of interstellar law.
One of the laws mentioned in the article was signed off by only five countries.
I'm afraid that this well-meaning, yet groundless search for universal fairness will only do harm -- as many posters have pointed out, why seek to commercialize space if there is no ownership?
Look. I want to live in a world where there is no war, everybody loves one another, and we all sing kumbaya -- but that ain't going to happen. Economic progress is built on the chaos of individual freedom and property. That means along with nice TVs and BMWs we get greed, wars, and lawyers. That's just the nature of commerce. And by golly, I want to drive a new BMW spaceship before I croak!
Government: Reinsurer of Last Resort (Score:3, Interesting)
People get all confused about the role of property rights and governments because the tax base has shifted from assets to income.
If the tax base were on assets, where it belongs, it would be much more intuitive to people that government, when functional, provides an insurance service: it insures that property rights are protected.
The simplest way of envisioning this is to imagine a reinsurance network where the reinsurer of last resort is what we call "the government". Where "citizen franchise" comes in is in the fact that during times of emergency, "governments" have historically conscripted able-bodied men (and to some degree and in some roles women) to enforce the property rights insured by the government. This citizen franchise is in the form of votes on things relating to the conscription of citizens but it also is in the form of exemption from certain other duties or taxes -- which would otherwise be paid in the form of insurance premiums.
Imagine a situation in which if you declare something to be insurable, you do nothing more than pay your insurance premiums and that's the end of your tax liability. Certainly, the guys who run around the globe tormenting Muslims wouldn't like this -- since they would have to actually end up paying for the risks they bring upon themselves and others in places like the US, but really -- do the rest of us need atavisms like the World Trade Center that much?
similar scenario in Antarctica (Score:4, Interesting)
From an antarctic website:
In 1961, the Antarctic Treaty took effect with signatures from the twelve countries who participated in the IGY. The treaty is a surprisingly short and simple document, but it is one of the most successful international agreements ever made. It deals with issues regarding the future of Antarctica and recognizes that:
The Antarctic Treaty guarantees four things: "Antarctica will remain open for scientific research to nations who agree to the treaty. No military bases can be built on the continent. There will be no testing of nuclear weapons or dumping of nuclear waste in Antarctica. No claims of ownership are recognized or denied, and no new claims of ownership can be made. Since the treaty took effect several additional countries have signed on and members have added laws to protect Antarctic plants and animals. In 1991, the treaty was further strengthened by the Protocol on Environmental Protection which defines Antarctica as a "natural reserve devoted to peace and science." Today, scientists maintain year-round research stations throughout Antarctica but it remains an untamed wilderness.
Re:Headline dissappointed me.... (Score:2, Interesting)
It is a fucking joke.
Jewish law (Score:1, Interesting)
Jews... In... Spaaaace... [blogspot.com]
Re:Your Sig (OT) (Score:2, Interesting)
Yes, but in this sense, "execute" does not mean "end his life." It's "execute" in the sense of "allow to run". I agree in this case it should be 'rm -rf /bin/laden' or perhaps 'killall laden && rm -rf /bin/laden' in case /bin/laden is already running.
R.A.H. (Score:2, Interesting)
I have no
Re:Headline dissappointed me.... (Score:3, Interesting)
Property Taxes??? (Score:4, Interesting)
If these people say they own the sun / moon / other celestial objects.
Let's start charging them property taxes.
Sun Example:
6069871166000.84 square kilometers of surface (Approx)
x $200 / square kilometer
= $ 1,214,000,000,000,000 (Approx)
+ Processing Fees (Lawyers love them.. so they would be happy to pay them.).
Of course the fees would be charged yearly... And interest would be charged on missed payments!
After something like this, lets see how fast they give up these celestial objects!
Homesteading requirements (Score:1, Interesting)
If you want to claim it, you have to live on the property for at least 5 years and improve it.
Perhaps instead of 100 acres, we should go for a territorial limit of 12 miles, or more reasonably the 200 mile economic zone many countries use, as territory.
Now -that- would provide impetus to space exploration!
Own the sun - Sue him for melanoma! (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Planetary settlements probably never happen (Score:2, Interesting)
Would there even need to be a law allowing settlements? If Joe Bazzillionaire decides to retire to Mars, is it really going to be worth the tax bill to fly out there and bring him back?
"Nothing is more destructive of respect for the government and the law of the land than passing laws which cannot be enforced" -Albert Einstein
the origin of property ownership (Score:3, Interesting)
I don't think the concept of property ownership or "common rights of humanity" will really mean much of anything unless and until we actually have people up there representing themselves or a government to assert a property claim.
I prefer private ownership, nobody is going to put their own investment into a piece of property they do not have a legal right to, and if there is no private investment, there is no space colonization or industrialization.
As to why this issue is likely to become a "live" one long before the lawyers expect it to, follow the link in my sig.