EPA Fuel Economy Myth: Too High, Too Low? 1378
ThosLives asks: "I have seen here on Slashdot , and just about every other publication, numerous articles about fuel cells, hybrid vehicles, and the inaccuracies of EPA fuel economy stickers. For instance, today there is a review of the Toyota Prius that had the famous line 'Since no car really achieves the EPA estimated mileage...' I happen to drive a car with an EPA sticker of 21 city 25 highway (all figures in miles per gallon). I've driven the car for 47000 miles and the lowest I've ever seen is 23 and some change; the highest, 36.3 (I'm probably about 60% highway 40% stop-and-go and yes, the high was on a long highway trip). My all-time average is about 28.5. As most people get less than the EPA mileage, how does the Slashdot readership fare when it comes to EPA sticker vs actual experience, and on what type of vehicle?"
"Am I a rare breed that can drive my car (2.0L I4, 170 HP, 6-speed manual) aggressively (I've had coworkers and friends say 'woah!' more than I'd like to admit *grin*) and still stomp the EPA sticker? Did I get lucky with a phenomenal car? Am I enough of a counter-example to thwart the belief that the EPA figures are 'too liberal'? Are fuel economy issues just FUD from [insert lobby group of choice]? Or is the answer simply 'it depends on how you drive, what you had for breakfast, and the color of your neighbors' cat?'"
I drive a 2000 Chevy Lumina. (Score:3, Interesting)
For some reason I seem to get reasonable good mileage regardless of what I'm driving. At one time, years ago, I had a 1976 Mercury station wagon, totally a battleship with a 460 V-8 and managed to average 14 mpg with that boat hauling my 5 kids and wife. Again, I emphasize that I'm not an economy minded driver. I am a "Get from point A to point B" with a minimum of fuss and delay sort. I never get more than 10 mph over the posted limit, so I mostly go with the usual flow out here in the plaines. A little over a year ago I drove my mom's Buick to Arizona for her. It's got that nice 3.8 liter engine and is not a light car. I drove 1,750 miles in two days and got 28 mpg, but admittedly it's all Interstate driving, but out West traffic moves at 80+ mph. I was reall surprised. I've also driven some larger Chrysler products on long trips with mileages that were similar. I've concluded that modern cars do a pretty durn good job of fuel economy even in some of the larger configurations.
"Do the Right Thing. It will gratify some people and astound the rest." - Mark Twain
EPA fuel mileage is a scam... (Score:5, Interesting)
A healthy car means good milage (Score:3, Interesting)
I'd have to say that the biggest part of keeping my fuel economy up is keeping my car in good shape though. I had the muffler on my car die recently, the pipe basically decided to rust off the muffler body. I noticed a little bit of noise, but the pipe was still in the muffler and they were both connected to the car so nothing looked out of place. The big tip off that something was really wrong was the reduced fuel economy. Took it in to a trusted mechanic, got it fixed, and the mpg was back to where it should be.
Also, keep your tires inflated to where they should be. I'm told this is the best way to increase fuel economy.
93 vs 02 EPA mileage (Score:5, Interesting)
Reading some of the other posts, it seems that older cars beat the EPA mileage and newer cars do not. Is it possible that the EPA changed their methods for estimating mileage?
Side note: I sure miss my '93 Probe. Sniff.
Re:EPA fuel mileage is a scam... (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm surprised a GM gets the guzzler tax, I thought they had a corporate edict to not sell cars that are hit with it.
Unfortunately, I hate SUVs, but when you have a situation where the politicians are inundated by the UAW and the big three to not enact higher economy standards on trucks, that's what you'd expect.
It's funny that you mention the GTO. Right after the Big Three won their stay from fuel economy on trucks so they can "protect" American workers, GM announced that they'd import their GTOs from their Australian branch.
Re:About what I'd expect... (Score:2, Interesting)
I'm not a car guy (as I live in Manhattan, I don't even own one), but I was always under the impression that an engine with a turbo would always use it, regardless of engine RPM; difference being, at higher RPM's, it would be far more effective.
Since the turbo compresses air prior to intake, shouldn't the engine always use it, even if only minimally?
50 MPG Jetta TDI (Score:5, Interesting)
MILEAGE DEPENDS ON FUEL QUALITY!!! (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Gas (Score:1, Interesting)
While I don't doubt this, there must be something wrong with the car if it takes almost twice as much gas to go the same distance with 87 instead of 91 octane.
Does your car specify higher octane fuel?
My Jetta TDI gets 54 MPG on the highway (Score:4, Interesting)
Before people start to complain about environmental concerns, do the research first.
http://www.tdiclub.com/
http://www.biodiesel.o
I did a lot of research when I bought, due to my long commutes (150+ miles/day), and I save, on average, between $250 - $300 per month, which essentially paid for the monthly payments.
Great car. They also have Diesel Golf, Beetle, and Passat models, if the Jetta doesn't float your boat. Worried about not being able to find diesel? When my low fuel light comes on, I still have a 2 gallon reserve, or about 80 miles in the city, but in reality, it's not that difficult to find diesel.
They're definitely worth checking out. I plan on being able to keep the car for a number of years, as the engines last forever. Sorry to sound like a diesel advocate, but it's a great, comfortable car.
Re:Thus the phrase... (Score:5, Interesting)
http://www.hybridcars.com/oil.html [hybridcars.com]
Re:Not a scam, just outdated (Score:5, Interesting)
The station wagon was a standard staple of middle America for many years, and helped haul millions of children to football and baseball practice. If a car company wants to sell them in America, they are forced by regulations to sell several cheap cars (like the Geo Metro). SUVs don't have this same restriction. Mini Vans also help cover some of this, but even a Mini Van doesn't deal with everything you could haul in an old fashion station wagon. That's why I drive an SUV right now.
Try the WUSS test (Score:2, Interesting)
Hybrids are interesting, but the economics are not there yet. I calculate that if a Hybrid Civic (epa 51 mpg) costs $4900 more (after rebates & incentives) than a standard Civic (epa 38 mpg) and gas is $2.10/gal, you'd have to drive it over 300K miles to break even. Anybody who is buying these cars deserves an attaboy for being a brave pioneer and donor to developing technology.
I drive a 1994 Audi 12V V6 (Score:3, Interesting)
Everyone that's driven this car is very surprised because it doesn't look like much but it can handle the rice boys fine. If it's in anything except clear conditions, don't even try. You've never lived till you spin all 4 wheels on gravel or ice while it gets grip. I can't imagine what putting a supercharger on there will do. I've had the car for over 2 years and I still get goosebumps from the performance.
Re:Thus the phrase... (Score:4, Interesting)
Speed limits were designed way back when you could reduce your gas intake by slipstreaming off your buddy (the guy in front of you). Same idea as geese flying in formation (reduces drag).
Nowadays, speed limits serve a different purpose: adding money to the state's coffers (in the name of education, social security, etc.). A friend of mine works with the cops (state & local), and yes, they do have quotas. Twice a month, cops are everywhere, then they disappear for a few weeks.
I do not condone doing 90MPH+ in a population center (i.e. center city Philly), but once you're out on the highway or the backroads, let loose. If your car has the speed and breaking distance, you have nothing to fear.
As an aside, under all circumstances, I obey the yellow speed signs (speed limits or otherwise). They actually serve a purpose (if a sign says 15 MPH, you bet that I'm going to abide by it).
I'd like to see the cops chase after those who impede traffic (30MPH in a 45MPH zone). Course, we can't have that in PA, as it would offend all those older voters (I think they outnumber everyone else). Grannies, wearing coke-bottle glasses, out driving their Buicks. Left-blinker, for 2 1/2 freaking miles.
Re:Thus the phrase... (Score:2, Interesting)
Possibly the best post on /. (Score:3, Interesting)
I think an invenstigation needs to go underway, it is, or should be, illegal for this kind of law to be put in place.
I am shocked that this hasn't been a source of massive outcry, and protest, but hey, you don't want to be anti-patriotic.
Thanks for posting this, the fact that it hasn't been modded up, and the only AC reply is you are jealous of car sizes, shows what kind of a sick and twisted world this is!
So what's the secret? (Score:3, Interesting)
You got me interested. Care to share a few tips with the
Re:Thus the phrase... (Score:1, Interesting)
Yet again, we come across the idea that people who don't know something (like, for instance, how to drive a 4000 lb truck and make it be fuel efficient) are morons, whereas you who sprang full-formed from the womb of a carbureted V8 know how to drive a 4000 lb truck to make it fuel efficient.
Okay, Truck God, I submit my puny moronic brain to your tutelage. How do I drive a Suburban and get good fuel economy?
Bonus points if you can tell me how to drive one where it's not three times as likely to murder other drivers on the road in the event of an accident. (Be ready to lay some serious engineering knowledge on me for this one. I will call bullshit.)
Re:Not a scam, just outdated (Score:2, Interesting)
A minvan such as the Espace or Chrystler Voyager has MORE people/cargo capacity (both seat 7), but people do not buy them because of the macho factor. Minivans are family trucksters for soccer moms. SUVs are (or used to be, but the image remains)all about strength and capibility. Most people prefer that feeling, so they buy a poseur SUV that gives them the capable feeling. It is simply a penis extension.
If you need to tow stuff or go off road, get a pickup. If you need to haul a bunch of people, tow stuff and go off road, then you are stuck with a Suburban. The people that need this are the same ones that needed it 20 years ago and there were not ery many SUVs on the road then.
Re:Thus the phrase... (Score:4, Interesting)
Which is extremely scary. I have a Class C motorhome with an engine that make's the hummer's look like a economy-car engine. It's a Ford 460 gasoline engine with a Holly 4bbl big-bore carb on the top of it. I pull a 30 foot camper body that is over 10 feet tall and have 2 extra tires hitting the pavement. and I get BETTER gas mileage than the hummer.
There is something really wrong where a vehicle that is 4 times the size and more than twice the engine AND using older non fuel injected fuel technology that is significantly less efficient than the new and supposedly high-tech Hummer.
What are they doing so wrong on the hummer?
Re:Thus the phrase... (Score:1, Interesting)
its not about driving slow either.
I live in the EU, you insensitive clod! (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Thus the phrase... (Score:1, Interesting)
Very simple. Give the test model to a dozen different testers for week or two each and have them drive it as they drive any other (their own) car. Then they just report the mileage and gallons of gas pumped at the end of the period. Average it...voila! Real-world numbers.
It could probably be even broken down into City-only drivers, highway-only etc..
That being said, you can do this with your own car too to roughly determine your gas mileage (an amazing amount of people have no idea how much gas they really use in MPG's. Usually they know "I put in 20 bucks and it lasts a week"
1. Fill up your tank all the way (really all the way)
2. Reset your manual mileage counter to 000 and drive off to whatever you do
3. Drive until tank is almost empty
4. Fill up tank again all the way
5. Divide mileage on your manual counter (ex.: 374 miles) by the gallons (ex.: 14.6) you just put in for a pretty accurate miles-per-gallon number (using our examples it'd be 25.6 mpg's)
If you do this every time you'll also spot any mechanical issues right away if all of the sudden you get much less than usual.
Re:Thus the phrase... (Score:3, Interesting)
EPA Mileage (Score:2, Interesting)
It doesn't matter (Score:1, Interesting)
Let me repeat that for those with poor reading comprehension: It makes next to zero difference where US imports originate! The world market for oil is just that, a world market. Reducing US imports by the fraction coming from the Middle East would not reduce Middle East production by that amount; it would just cause the total pool to shrink slightly and each producer's output to be distributed a bit differently.
It would actually cause slightly greater cuts in production in the west, because shipping costs from Mexico, Canada and Venezuela to alternate destinations in Europe and the Far East are higher than from the Middle East. On the other hand, it would cause world oil prices to fall and decrease the profits of all oil producers.
Re:Thus the phrase... (Score:2, Interesting)
Pardon my ignorance, but what incentive does the auto insurance industry to perpetuate this fallacy?
They perpetuate this fallacy by running ads on TV that state that speed kills. They buy speed detection equipment and give them away. They add surcharges to drivers that receive speeding tickets and claim that it is because "faster drivers are less safe" (a lie, in my opinion). What they are really doing is weeding out inattentive drivers. Most people speed. Most are not ticketed. So who gets ticketed? Those that are inattentive and those that speed inappropriately. It is not the speed that makes them unsafe. It is a correlation between those that get caught and those that crash that give you the "statistics" you refer to.
I tend to believe that the actuarial tables do not lie.
"Actuarial tables" sounds a lot like statistics (insert obligitory "lies, damn lies, and statistics" quote). First, you don't state what they say, only that they don't lie (and the not lying part of statistics is evidently debatable). Second, have you ever actually spent a brain cell on the subject? Where are most fatal crashes? On urban streets, generally intersections. Where are the fewest fatal crashes? Oh, why that would be the roads with the highest speeds. If "speed kills" was the most important factor, then the faster people would crash more. Since that is obviously quite false, "speed kills" must be false as well. But rather than come up with something more accurate ("excessive speed kills" or "inappropriate speed kills" or "inattentive driving kills" or "speed does not kill, but if someone screws up, it is better if they are going slower"), they go for the convenient lie.
But then, this subject, like religion, is one where most people have made up their minds and refuse to actually discuss the facts in a rational manner. So I'm sure this post is falling on deaf ears.
Re:Thus the phrase... (Score:3, Interesting)
Hey, maybe instead of whining about the choices people make based on your guesses about what they need, you should complain to your state and federal legislators about their failure to apply fuel economy standards to this class of vehicle (or otherwise deal with the problem you perceive of too many SUVs).
Or you could thank those SUV drivers for helping to drive up the cost of oil, which will make alternative fuels and/or more efficient options such as hybrids more attractive and cost effective sooner.
Driving styles and the gas cap influence... (Score:2, Interesting)
When my wife drives, she gets about 38 miles per gallon consistently. The strange part is that I drive faster than she does. However, I think I "optimize" for the hybrid more. I ensure that I roll as much as possible with the engine off, I take off slower from stops (usually), and I try to keep the engine RPM below a certain level.
We also noticed that if you accidentally un-seat the gas cap a bit you can get better mileage. Something about the fuel pressure putting less fuel in the engine. It was good for about 3-4 more MPG.
TTFN
Re:Thus the phrase... (Score:4, Interesting)
I wish gas prices were lower, but if prices were $5 a gallon, it would not affect my driving habits. I know lots of people who complain about gas prices, gas mileage, etc. but the majority of the complainers I know make more than $100k a year and still drive cars that get less than 20mpg. I finally showed the boss the math, and he quit bitching about it.
A vivid example: 50 miles per day at 20mpg = 2.5 gallons per day x 20 days a month (1000 miles typical) = 50 gallons per month. The price difference of $1.50 and $2.00 comes to $25 per month. For someone making $100k a year, this difference represents a grand total of
Most of the users on slashdot spend more than this on porn.
*(Based on income of $100k, tax of $20,000, [typical] 52 weeks / 4 = 13 cycles x $25 per cycle = $325 yearly / $80,000 bring home = 0.0040625)
Re:Thus the phrase... (Score:3, Interesting)