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Space

SpaceShipOne Flight Not as Perfect as it Seemed 609

ArbiterOne writes "SpaceShipOne's flight wasn't as perfect as it seemed, according to Burt Rutan and New Scientist. Apparently, at one point in the descent, the pilot completely lost attitude control. According to him, "If that had happened earlier, I would never have made it and you all would be looking sad right now." Could this pose some problems for the X-Prize contender?"
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SpaceShipOne Flight Not as Perfect as it Seemed

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  • by Dagny Taggert ( 785517 ) <hankrearden AT gmail DOT com> on Tuesday June 22, 2004 @10:55AM (#9494906) Homepage
    ...the pilot's skill. However, this is to be expected with any prototype. It's always the early pioneers who take the risks; I guarantee that Rutan and crew are working on fixing the attitude problem as we speak. And, knowing those guys, the next flight will be perfect.
  • Re:Attitude? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by PFactor ( 135319 ) on Tuesday June 22, 2004 @10:56AM (#9494922) Journal
    Sure. They can roll the vehicle until its upside down if they want. In space, I think they have even more control - even being able to point the nose of the craft AWAY from the direction of travel or straight up (subjectively speaking, of course).
  • by johannesg ( 664142 ) on Tuesday June 22, 2004 @10:57AM (#9494939)
    The poll indicates 62% of the /. crowd would happily fly in that ship on monday. It would be interesting to repeat the poll now and see if it is still this high.

    And despite this: it *is* rocket science, and an experimental vehicle to boot. It isn't surprising there are some problems. Let's all be happy the pilot actually survived.

  • by mykepredko ( 40154 ) on Tuesday June 22, 2004 @11:03AM (#9495011) Homepage
    This is something that has always impressed me with Rutan; he has always been pretty honest with regards to the performance and safety of his designs.

    He could have just as easily hid the issues and blamed the time to fix the problem on the FAA or a vendor (like the rocket motor supplier).

    The attitude changes on motor light are significant problems that will have to be addressed although I wonder if it is due to center of gravity changes caused by the fully fueled motor. The big bang and deformed panel is a potentially bigger problem and may require significant changes to the structure.

    myke
  • by EssTiDee ( 784920 ) on Tuesday June 22, 2004 @11:08AM (#9495079)
    While i'm sure this will get a -1 Flamebait, i have to at least start by expressing my dissapointment with the vast number of "attitude" jokes so far...

    That said, I'm surprised the development team isn't more concerned with the extreme instabilities reportedly experienced while firing the engines. Seems to me that such a huge misalignment of thrust is a much greater problem than a "slight glitch in the attitude controls"

    Perhaps Jon Carmack's team still has a shot at the big bucks.... Even without bothering to make any cash from finally releasing Doom3.
  • Amateurs (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Hiro Antagonist ( 310179 ) on Tuesday June 22, 2004 @11:10AM (#9495094) Journal
    There's an old story from Analog (a science-fiction magazine) titled 'Amateurs' which reminds me quite a bit of the guys at Scaled Composites, except in 'Amateurs', they didn't have a government prize to spur them on, just a drive to get into space, and a willingness to ignore and/or bend a few laws, such as re-using the ID of a salvaged Lear jet for their experimental SSTO vehicle[1], called 'Dervish Also', because the original, titled 'Dervish', blew up.

    On the top of the hatch that led into the interior of the ship was stenciled the words: "Experimental Space Rocket -- Dangerous As Hell"

    [1] Probably one of the funnier points in the story is during a radio exchange between the pilot of the Dervish Also and the ground, where the pilot requested clearance to take his "Learjet" to a flight level of 600. *grin*
  • by antdude ( 79039 ) on Tuesday June 22, 2004 @11:13AM (#9495144) Homepage Journal
    The part where Mike Mevilla opened a bag of M&Ms and the candies went flying? I saw it on news, but it was freaky short! Do you know where I can watch the whole video online?

    Thank you in advance.
  • Not surprising (Score:5, Interesting)

    by haplo21112 ( 184264 ) <haplo@epithnaFREEBSD.com minus bsd> on Tuesday June 22, 2004 @11:15AM (#9495167) Homepage
    Seing as they are the first to exit the atmosphere in the way that they did it. Its not entirely unexpected that the ship would encounter things that it had not previous to this. The stresses (and lack of conversely as atmospheric pressure lessens) required to do what it did are hard to calculate and test. I wouldn't even count this as a set back...my bet is that they will take June and Most of July to figure out what was up during this flight make design changes and do another single pilot test flight in Late July Early August. And then another in September, the winning flights will probably take place in late October early November...just my guess...
  • by WormholeFiend ( 674934 ) on Tuesday June 22, 2004 @11:21AM (#9495229)
    news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3829489.stm
    Th ey quote Rutan:
    "The fact that our back-up system worked and we made a beautiful landing makes me feel very good."

    I find it quite insightful of Rutan to have designed a backup system into his space-plane. And it did work as designed... a clear demonstration that should win even more future safety-weary customers/passengers.
  • Is it true? (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 22, 2004 @11:31AM (#9495324)
    Your attitude and not your aptitude determines your altitude? Turns out it's grounded in reality, not just a squishy Oprah-esque platitude. Woah.
  • Re:Accept the risk (Score:3, Interesting)

    by iamacat ( 583406 ) on Tuesday June 22, 2004 @11:35AM (#9495369)
    I believe there were quite a few laws passed against early cars, on the grounds that they scared the horses.
  • by Mulletproof ( 513805 ) on Tuesday June 22, 2004 @11:37AM (#9495412) Homepage Journal
    I'd have to say that number would be even greater now, actually. Think of it this way-- 62% of /. were willing go with a total unknown, where the chance of failure was just as high as the chance of success. Now you not only have a successful return, you have some major issues brought to ligh that will undoubtably be corrected before the next flight that will only raise the chances of success.

    I'd vote yes again :D
  • by Hays ( 409837 ) on Tuesday June 22, 2004 @11:40AM (#9495475)
    20 million is about 1/10th the cost of a 747 according to boeing :

    http://www.boeing.com/commercial/prices/
  • by richmaine ( 128733 ) on Tuesday June 22, 2004 @12:04PM (#9495785)
    Surprised nobody yet has cited the old pilot saying...

    "Any landing that you can walk away from is a good landing." :-)
  • by citabjockey ( 624849 ) on Tuesday June 22, 2004 @12:04PM (#9495792) Homepage
    I would love to see this too.

    When learning aerobatics I used to place my wallet on the dashboard above the instrument panel. I would dive the airplane, pull up, then nose over with forward stick to follow a parabolic curve to achieve near zero observed gravity. By pushing the stick a little further forward I could lift the wallet off the dash. By adding some throttle I could bring the wallet back to me. It was a fun exercise to fly the airplane around a falling wallet.

    I wonder if Melvill had a similar plan with the M&M's?
  • by at_kernel_99 ( 659988 ) on Tuesday June 22, 2004 @12:07PM (#9495820) Homepage
    That is the very reason SpaceShipOne cost $20 million instead of $2 billion. If we ever want space flight to be within the reach of the average person, NASA is NOT going to get us there. It's private programs like this that will make the cost reasonable.

    To expand on your point, that is the way it should be. Governments should not be spending tax dollars on building amusment rides for the public. How much did whats-his-name (tito?) spend to ride on Soyuz up to the space station? Not enough, if you ask me, the the Russians apparently disagree. If the common man is going to space, it is private enterprise that should get him there.

  • by notestein ( 445412 ) on Tuesday June 22, 2004 @12:14PM (#9495917) Homepage Journal
    You know what we call almost late?

    On time.
  • by MrBlue VT ( 245806 ) on Tuesday June 22, 2004 @12:39PM (#9496205) Homepage
    Actually, it's kind of funny that they encountered this issue. John Carmack predicted it last week in his weekly update [armadilloaerospace.com] (second to last paragraph):

    Speaking of next week... I think Space Ship One has good odds of success in the single-person-to-100km flight. I only see two real issues they may hit: The extended burn above the atmosphere may run into some control issues as the nozzle ablates, which will be hard to correct with only cold gas attitude jets. This would be a fairly benign failure, with the pilot just shutting off the main engine if he can't hold the trajectory.
  • Re:Yeager (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Doubting Thomas ( 72381 ) on Tuesday June 22, 2004 @12:55PM (#9496413)
    Yeah, and that was when the -real- fun began. His surgeons put him on a program of PEALING THE SCABS OFF OF HIS FACE on a regular (daily?) basis, to keep the scarring to a minimum. Apparently it worked (he ended up with a little bit of chicken neck, but most of his face looked fine), but man, you couldn't pay me enough or give me enough drugs to go through that.
  • Re:Indeed (Score:3, Interesting)

    by kahei ( 466208 ) on Tuesday June 22, 2004 @01:05PM (#9496581) Homepage
    SpaceShipOne and Scaled Composites are very good, but they are like the japanese entering the car market.

    You mean, they're producing a better solution for less money on an otherwise level playing field -- and making it look shiny too?

    Actually, although I'm not sure you could declare SS1 'better' than the shuttle, it's a pretty interesting analogy, with NASA in the role of Detroit.

  • by Doubting Thomas ( 72381 ) on Tuesday June 22, 2004 @01:16PM (#9496718)
    It was pretty obvious that the folks doing the reporting hadn't been briefed at all into what exactly was happenning, and that was a damned shame.

    My clearest moment of "damn, did these guys do ANY research before showing up??" came when SpaceShipOne was on descent, followed by two chase planes, and the CNN cameraman got confused as to which one was SpaceShipOne, and zoomed in on one of the chase planes for about ten second, before finally panning over to SSO for the rest of the shot. Uh, wrong plane, bucko.
  • by advocate_one ( 662832 ) on Tuesday June 22, 2004 @01:44PM (#9497097)
    considering the number of aircraft that have been lost to loose articles in cockpits/control runs etc. If an engineer loses a tool or whatever in the cockpit, there are a heck of a lot of checks that have to be gone through before the aircraft can be cleared for flight. [the-statio...fice.co.uk]

    "I will explain in aircraft engineering terms how critical loose components are in flying control systems. If on an RAF aircraft we lose a washer or a nut the size of my little finger nail in an engineering procedure, that aircraft is grounded until the component that big (indicates) is found, even slightly smaller than that, or the most thorough engineering examination, often lasting about three days, is carried out before that aircraft is allowed to fly again."
  • by Ungrounded Lightning ( 62228 ) on Tuesday June 22, 2004 @02:29PM (#9497635) Journal
    In space, I think they have even more control - even being able to point the nose of the craft AWAY from the direction of travel or straight up (subjectively speaking, of course).

    You can do that in the atmosphere, too.

    It's just that some attitudes have consequences, and (at flight speeds) sometimes the consequences involve sudden disassembly of the airframe, so you can't maintain certain attitudes for very long. B-)

    Of course if your airframe is strong enough, some of these unusual attitudes can be useful. For instance: In WWII it was a real bitch if you got an enemy on your tail. If his craft was roughly as manouverable as yours he could just follow you through all your manouvers and keep shooting at you, while you mostly got to run. (I never DID figure out why they didn't mout a rear-pointing machinegun on fighters.) That's why fighter craft worked in pairs and the pairs worked in groups (so you had a spare "buddy" if yours got shot down.

    Nowadays fighter jocks can just nose-up suddenly and fly belly first for a couple seconds. It's like hitting a wall of pillows in the air: Airspeed drops abruptly, and now YOU'RE the guy at the rear of the parade. (But try that in a WWII craft and you're likely to find it only worked for the wings...)

    I hear one of the common models of the learjet gets significantly better mileage flying upside down.

    Story goes this was discovered by a three-man consulting firm of autopilot-programmers, who bought one that had had a fire wreck the cabin furnishings at scrap prices, had it redone by a van conversion outfit, and used it for recreational cross-country flying. Of course it costs a LOT to do that, and this was limiting their recreation. So they tried different things to reduce fuel consumption.

    After discovering they saved about 10% flying upside down, they rehacked their autopilot to fly it that way if desired, and played cards sitting on the ceiling.

    Well one day they were flying near a military base and NORAD got a bit concerned: Seems the radar signature of a lear flying upside-down wasn't in the database. Oops: UFO. Did the Soviets come up with something new ala the U2? Up go a couple fighters to check it out.

    They look out the window and see a fighter pacing them. Fighter jock points up. ("Are you aware you're flying upside down?") They nod and point up, too. ("Yes, we are. This is intentional.") (Sometimes pilots get disoriented and fly upside down. This can lead to crashes if he doesn't get it figured out in time.)

    So fighter pilot flips over so HE's upside-down, too, paces them a moment more, then flys away, still upside-down.
  • by igny ( 716218 ) on Tuesday June 22, 2004 @02:34PM (#9497692) Homepage Journal
    100km is defined as space...

    When they change the definition (and they will eventually), can they revoke the astronaut status?

  • Re:Yeager (Score:3, Interesting)

    by justins ( 80659 ) on Tuesday June 22, 2004 @03:01PM (#9498056) Homepage Journal
    Enough out of the atmosphere for the aerodynamic controls not to work, but not enough into space for the peroxide jets to function either.

    Why wouldn't the peroxide thrusters work? All the thruster needs is for the peroxide to pass through the catalyst, right? That's going to happen at sea level just as well as in space.

    I'm talking out of my ass but I'm guessing the peroxide thrusters didn't get the nose of that F-104 down because of some other severe aerodynamic thing the plane was experiencing. But the thrusters fired and exerted their pressure - it just wasn't enough. But maybe that's what you meant. :)
  • Re:Weightless.... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by SuiteSisterMary ( 123932 ) <slebrunNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Tuesday June 22, 2004 @03:41PM (#9498525) Journal

    Microgravity [reference.com]:An environment in which there is very little net gravitational force, as of a free-falling object, an orbit, or interstellar space. (emphasis mine)

    Weightlessness [reference.com]: Not experiencing the effects of gravity.

    Gravity is still very significant at those altitudes.

    Therefore, you're not weightless.

    because he was coasting freely along with it.

    In other words, he was in freefall, and experiencing 'microgravity.'

    Gravity is still very significant at those altitudes.

    And you're right; in orbit, you're still very much affected by gravity; an 'orbit' is simply 'falling towards, but keep missing' sort of thing. You're not weightless, you're in freefall, and therefore experiencing 'microgravity.'

    From a howstuffworks.com [howstuffworks.com] article:

    Weightlessness is more correctly termed microgravity. You are not actually weightless, because the Earth's gravity is holding you and everything in the shuttle in orbit. You are actually in a state of free-fall, much like jumping from an airplane except that you are moving so fast horizontally (5 miles per second or 8 kilometers per second) that, as you fall, you never touch the ground because the Earth curves away from you.
  • by Ungrounded Lightning ( 62228 ) on Tuesday June 22, 2004 @09:50PM (#9502338) Journal
    I think that yaw does not count as attitude, because it does not change the relationship between the wings of a plane and the plane of the Earth. This relationship stays the same when the plane spins around its vertical axis.

    Yes, that definition excludes yaw - at least when the craft is wings-level and nose-level. But it also excludes pitch when the plane is wingtip-straight-down, and roll when the plane is nose-straight-down or nose-straight-up.

    I've always understood attitude to include all three. And I've seen other definitions referenced on /. that include all three. So I'm assuming the definition cited in this thread is defective.

For God's sake, stop researching for a while and begin to think!

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