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Science

SELEX at Fermilab Discovers New Particle 259

sellthesedownfalls writes "Scientists at the Department of Energy's Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory will announce on Friday, June 18 the observation of an unexpected new member of a family of subatomic particles called 'heavy-light' mesons. The new meson, a combination of a strange quark and a charm antiquark, is the heaviest ever observed in this family, and it behaves in surprising ways -- it apparently breaks the rules on decaying into other particles. See the Fermilab Press Release."
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SELEX at Fermilab Discovers New Particle

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  • Rules (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 18, 2004 @04:07PM (#9466478)
    Many things will end up breaking the "rules" before it's all over.
  • Stupid question! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by saderax ( 718814 ) on Friday June 18, 2004 @04:10PM (#9466514)
    IANAP(hysicist) ... Do these mesons occur in nature? If not, how can it be claimed a new "discovery." In the same manner, I can glue a poptart to a can of coke and "discover" a new product that has the edible goodness of poptarts and the drinkable properties of coke.
  • by p3tersen ( 227521 ) on Friday June 18, 2004 @04:16PM (#9466593)
    Do these mesons occur in nature?

    Doubtful.

    If not, how can it be claimed a new "discovery."

    They "discovered" that nature behaves in a certain way. How is it not a "discovery"? You can't call it an "invention" because it's not like they're designing these particles before creating them.
  • by swagr ( 244747 ) on Friday June 18, 2004 @04:19PM (#9466621) Homepage
    ...it apparently breaks the rules...

    Because it couldn't be that we've made a mistake. It was the naughty meson's fault.
  • Re:Johnson Rod (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 18, 2004 @04:23PM (#9466667)
    Stuff like this is utterly fascinating. It's another way to examine the universe and try to figure out how it works. Trying to figure out the strong force will help with figuring out nuclear properties. And since everything has nuclei....

    Also, experiments like this might poke holes in the Standard Model, which could lead to new area to explore in High Energy physics. Who knows what nature has hidden at the fermi level?

    And yes, I used to do particle physics, so this immediatly caught my attention.
  • by G4from128k ( 686170 ) on Friday June 18, 2004 @04:26PM (#9466693)
    If the data and rules disagree (and the data is valid) then "the rules" were never ever really correct. This is the most interesting and cognitively confounding element of science. So many experiments cause the perceived "rules" to change when in fact the true rules of the universe never change, only our approximations and estimations of them. This is why I wonder if so much of science is really just curve-fitting (F = m*a + delta, where delta contains relativistic effects, quantum effects, etc.) Similarly, I wonder if E = mc^2 + delta, where delta includes effects unseen because we haven't tested the formula over the entire span of possible conditions (energies, distances, mass concentrations, etc.)

    As an aside, a friend in college was religious because of this very issue. He hated the fact that science couldn't "make up its mind" abut what was true or not -- for him, an erroneous certainty was more comfortable than a changing, but progressively more correct uncertainty.
  • Re:Johnson Rod (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Billy the Mountain ( 225541 ) on Friday June 18, 2004 @04:34PM (#9466788) Journal
    I think this stuff DOES actually matter, I mean, physicists discovered quantum entanglement and now there's a the tantalizing possibility of the development unbreakable cyphers, quantum computers etc. Who knows what magical technology will come from these seemingly obscure discoveries. And I dare say that it doesn't take a physicist to come up with ways to harness these technologies, all it takes is a curious mind.

    BTM
  • by Theovon ( 109752 ) on Friday June 18, 2004 @04:39PM (#9466829)
    ... quantum physics would start to get pretty boring after a while.

    It's always fun to find a fault in the theory and then find a way to fix the theory, especially when that fix is elegant and makes all sorts of really cool predictions that you could not have made before.
  • by Richard_at_work ( 517087 ) * on Friday June 18, 2004 @04:49PM (#9466925)
    I have mod points, but im going to set them aside to say this: They DO occur in nature, as seen in this very experiment. If they didnt exist, or they were forbidden from existing, then we would never see them in any experiments we conduct. Just because we are causing them to appear by doing various things doesnt mean that the products of such an experiment is outside the scope of nature, and by saying "They dont occur in nature" simply ignores the fact that we are part of nature. If nature didnt want something to happen or occur, we would know about it.
  • by erice ( 13380 ) on Friday June 18, 2004 @05:09PM (#9467220) Homepage
    There have been times where the best fitting equations were just like you say. They had parts that didn't correspond to any real understanding. They just made the equation work. Those are emperical results.

    Much science is about taking those emperical results and coming up with theory that explains what they mean.
  • by Hard_Code ( 49548 ) on Friday June 18, 2004 @05:29PM (#9467429)
    It gets stranger. It may be that the "constants" and rules we observe in the universe have not always been so, and might not be so in the future. Godel's incompleteness theorem also gives us an inkling that there may indeed be truths that are unprovable.

    Note however, I am completely NOT religous, and despite their only shortcoming, I think science and reason are the only feasible tools we can use to understand the universe. Or said in another way, for things which are knowable and understandable, science and reason are the best way to find them.
  • by Cecil ( 37810 ) on Friday June 18, 2004 @05:33PM (#9467475) Homepage
    By your definition, I'm not sure that anything at all can be called a discovery. That would make it a pretty meaningless and useless word, wouldn't it?

    If no one has ever seen a meson like this before then -- regardless of whether they've been flying around the universe for billions of years -- I consider it a discovery, because we (humanity) have never noticed it before now. It's new. It's a discovery.
  • Rules (Score:3, Insightful)

    by phorm ( 591458 ) on Friday June 18, 2004 @05:37PM (#9467522) Journal
    That's because the "rules" are bounded on our existing knowledge. Way back when the rules stated that if you sailed for too long, you'd fall off the edge of the (flat) earth, or that the sun orbited around the earth.

    I'd expect that in the future, what we take for granted as a rule will be stretched, shrunk, or even broken. I'm not sure when it will be "over," but chances are that we'll be over before we learn all we could about the universe (possibly due to misunderstanding how it works).
  • by glitch23 ( 557124 ) on Friday June 18, 2004 @06:24PM (#9468003)

    Scientists are on a quest for truth, using solely that which we have actually observed (as compared to that which was written in a large book thousands of years ago) as their guide.

    Ever consider that your interpretations of your observations are incorrect? We are human afterall. We do make mistakes. Don't believe everything you see.

    And as for the large book written thousands of years ago, it was at least written by people who knew what they were talking about and witnessed various items that were then included in that large book. They were around when some of those events occurred and for the events they weren't around for they were told by a higher power what had transpired. I guess it's up to you to decide to believe a higher power that created the universe and then told others about it or to believe people who were never around during that time testify as to how things came into being and want us to believe they know what what they are talking about when they can only guess.

    When a higher power creates something as complicated as the universe it might tip you off that just maybe it is too complicated for mere humans to comprehend and although we can reach a partial understanding we will never reach a full understanding because our minds are human and we think like humans...and have biases and agendas to fight for. We are already getting to a point where thinking about black holes and other related items is a realm only a few thousand people can comprehend and the math required is only for the elite. It may be only a matter of time before no level of human intelligence can unravel everything about the universe. But even then I know some scientists will still dismiss any higher power being involved in the Creation.

  • by JessLeah ( 625838 ) on Friday June 18, 2004 @06:36PM (#9468128)
    Yeah, so God did these amazing miraculous things thousands of years ago, then conveniently stopped. Where are the burning bushes today? Where are the cities being smote? Where are the heretics being turned into pillars of salt? Where are the booming voices of God from the heavens? Oh yeah, and don't forget... the Universe was created a few thousand years ago, too. Uh huh... RIGHT. Fucking idiot.
  • by bware ( 148533 ) on Friday June 18, 2004 @06:53PM (#9468295) Homepage
    It's true, it's not as easy to make discoveries as it used to be. This experiment for instance has 125 co-authors and finished in 1997, so it had to go on for years before that. And it's a small experiment by comparison. So perhaps it's not as easy for an individual to make contributions as it used to be in these fields. But you could probably still do a lot on a (relative) table-top with things like Bose-Einstein condensates, atom interferometry, etc.

    That said, there's plenty we don't understand about the big issues. We don't know what most matter is. We don't know why the universe seems to be expanding faster than it should. We don't have any theory of quantum gravity. We don't know why galaxies formed, and why they formed so damn fast. We don't really seem to completely understand the strong force - and it's prying the lid off things like this that will get us there.

    So, as a physicist, I'd say there's still cool stuff to be done. You just might have to work hard in a lab or behind a desk for years and years to do it.
  • Re:Rules (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Tyler Durden ( 136036 ) on Friday June 18, 2004 @07:33PM (#9468661)
    I'm not sure when it will be "over," but chances are that we'll be over before we learn all we could about the universe (possibly due to misunderstanding how it works).

    Or even, maybe it never can be "over". Perhaps there will always be weaknesses in theories to explain weaknesses in older ones, ad infinitum. All theories are simply models to reduce the workings of the universe to a form we can make sense of. There may be no perfect model.

    I forgot who said this, but there's a quote that reads something like, "Not only is the universe stranger than we imagined, but it may be stranger than we can imagine."

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