NASA's Finances in Disarray 234
mwolff writes "Yahoo News has an article about the 'financial disarray' NASA seems to be in after a recent audit showed horrible documentation of funding. 'As NASA sets course for the moon and Mars, the space agency's finances are in disarray, with significant errors in its last financial statements and inadequate documentation for $565 billion posted to its accounts, its former auditor reported.'"
How do we get $565 billion with a small budget? (Score:4, Insightful)
Where does the $565 billion come from?
$565 billion an overestimate? (Score:5, Insightful)
If I understand it correctly, that paragraph would make it seem that the number $565 billion actually double- or triple-counts the amount of money that is poorly accounted for. Of course, $200+ billion is still not pocket change...
I'm wondering though - they don't actually say what part of that process was the problem. Making appropriate debits and credits to correct errors seems reasonable to me, but all I have to balance is my checkbook. Is there some other way to correct errors in the books? Or should NASA presumably have not been making errors to begin with?
Maybe they should have been using some of that $565 billion to hire better accountants?
Re:this isn't suprising (Score:3, Insightful)
If their MONEY is in such condition... (Score:3, Insightful)
If their MONEY calculations are in such condition, how do their spaceships even rise off the ground?
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
4 of 5 orbital mechanics disagree... (Score:5, Insightful)
This is completely impractical for everything except Geosynchronous satellites. Most satellites' orbits are designed to accomplish specific mission objectives, and if they happen to fly directly over (say) Burma, North Korea, or Zimbabwe that's just how it works. If you are interested in general orbit mechanics, you could consult Bate, Mueller and White's Fundamentals of Astrodynamics [doverpublications.com]. More specifics about orbit mission design are in Wertz and Larsen's Space Mission Analysis and Design [astrobooks.com]. Each is a classic.
Political problems: This would give every 2-penny tinpot dictator in the world license to put up a tollbooth in space. Should a scientific satellite that measures worldwide ocean wave heights have to get permission from said dictators to fly over their countries? How about search and rescue satellites? Telecommunications? GPS?
As to the issue of Moon resources... well I'm not too sure what sorts of treaties have been ratified, but I think it's a little early to worry about it. Even if there are tons of He-3 on the Moon we have no way to make use of it. Just about every other material resource on the moon (Al, O, Mg, etc) is in abundance on Earth. These resources will be useful for in-situ manufacturing, but economically not worth the candle here.
Re:compared to? (Score:5, Insightful)
An error of this magnitude is inconceivable. It really makes me think the figure must be $565 million, in which case this is pretty small potatoes for a big organization that's been around for a long time. (Lose track of $28 million a year - 0.2% of your budget - for 20 years and there's your number.) It certainly reflects inefficiency at NASA, but is there anyone, anywhere, who would be surprised by inefficiency at NASA?
Re:this isn't suprising (Score:2, Insightful)
"It figures a bunch of backwoods hicks living in the asshole of America (Alabama) couldn't add and subtract numbers correctly. They get lost after they count to 20 and exhaust the number of fingers and toes they have so it's understandable that figures like $2 billion here or $3 billion there would utterly confound them."
This is not an accurate characterization of the whole state, nor of all it's citizens. While there is alot about this state that I don't like (ex. I'm agnostic and none too happy over this crap Roy Moore is trying to pull) it's not all bad. As evidence that your assesment might not be fair I submit check the following:
http://www.bizjournals.com/birmingham/stories/2
http://www.waff.com/Global/story.asp?S=1863478&
As further evidence, I've got a pair of shoes! They're hanging from the power lines outside.
I'll grant you there is a lot of hicks here but Alabama hasn't exactly cornered the market. I've seen or seen pictures of (courtesy of friends in bands - and no not friggin country) poor crappy towns in almost every state in the continental US (and some in Canada).
Aside from that, not everyone that works at MSFC is a native of the state. If your going to assert hick management, you should at least be fair and blame it on the hicks and not necessarily the state.
I will admit however, that since NASA is a government agency, the IMF would be much better managed if it was handled in D.C. oh wait...
the moon is -not- on the way to mars (Score:1, Insightful)
The usual. . . (Score:2, Insightful)
NASA has been under funded since the NIXON administration. Every year since the last of the Moon missions NASA has been yoked to the Albatross of politicians who demand more and more from smaller and smaller budgets. Remember Senator Garn hitching a ride?
What? A short list:
Spacelab - allowed to drop from a decaying orbit in 1979 - but the budget cuts made it apparent in 1977 that the station was doomed.
Spacehab, gravity & solar probes failed littering Near Earth Orbits with debris - in fact, the problem of tracking debris has become a major project for NASA and the DOD. Of the space going powers we, alone, are responsible for more crap in orbit than any other nation by at least an order of magnitude.
The Shuttle project has killed two crews and the hopes of many veteran staff. Attrition of experienced staff has hit a new high while budget constraints gut the applicant pool.
Just do a search for the term, "mission" at http://kscsearch.ksc.nasa.gov/ to see the last 30 years for yourself.
What does Bush do in the wake of the latest shuttle disaster? He cuts funds for the Hubble and calls for a manned mission to Mars. The mere pennies to save Hubble he denies because his "core 'Christian' constituency" has issues with the idea of cosmology. Destroy one of the most effective deep space imaging systems ever and mandate manned missions to Mars! All of this must be accomplished with ever-decreasing budgets.
NASA in financial disarray? How could it be anything else...
Re:The usual. . . (Score:1, Insightful)
Um... Based on the results of Mars Express, there's probably some kind of life to be found on Mars. Wouldn't people who have problems with cosmology also have problems with that?
And if Hubble fails tomorrow, that's not going to destroy already-existing cosmology. And (useful as it is) Hubble's demise would not stop the work going on with Chandra and WMAP... Nor would it prevent the work which will be done with future observatories like GLAST. And the work being done on the surface of the Earth with neutrino astrophysics and very large telescopes only continues to ramp up.
Bush and NASA may have made some bad decisions. But the way that you choose to complain actually hurts your argument. Your post spends more verbage describing your personal dislike of the man than it does on the effects of current US policies.
Re:A government agency with financial discrepancie (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not sure which is more easily and quickly held responsible, but I'd still rather have NASA around, trying to do the job. I'd explain further, but my mind is all discombobulated from lack of sleep.
~UP
Re:faith-based accounting (Score:3, Insightful)
I think it would be hard to argue that our current recession is larger (or worse) than the great depression. Perhaps if you look only at the raw number of layoffs it could look as bad, but obviously that is not an accurate representation.
I was working at Intel from 2000 - 2003, and can remember exactly when the economy started to go south. It was in the fall of 2000 (only 7 months after Bush took office)... We had just posted record earnings for the last quarter of over 8.7 Billion... and yet the same day our stock plummeted... and so did everyone else's. All of the sudden everyone realized that all this "infinite growth" crap that was flying around wasn't true. The bubble began to burst...the Do-com's began to fail... causing problems with all traditional Hi-tech companies such as Intel. It then spread into the telecom... because now nobody wanted to buy all that newly available bandwidth. Since the dot-comers were all broke now after being so overpaid... it began to have a peripheral effect on the economy in general, from food service and parking lots, to cars and housing. Then came September 11th... bringing the airline and tourism economies to their knees. Even though we have a fairly resilient economy... there were just too many sectors struggling now... and we entered a good sized recession.
Now I don't see George Bush directly involved in any of the events that caused the recession. I think it's a safe bet to make that even if Gore had been in office, the tech bubble still would have burst...simply because it was not based on sound economics. 9/11 may or may not have happened if gore were in office...I don't know if the extremists who carried out that mission would have been "appeased" in time to make a difference (I say appeased because that's the only thing that might have made a difference, If say Gore decided to pull all troops from Saudi Arabia, which is what UBL was really so pissed off about in the first place... but anyway Clinton didn't want close that Saudi base to the best of my knowledge, so I don't see why gore would want to)
( Side note: one could argue that Iraq was indirectly responsible for 9/11... UBL offered to defend the Saudis from Iraq when Iraq invaded Kuwait, and was eyeing Saudi Arabia... but his home country shunned him...especially since he had already been kicked out if the country by his own people at that time. The Saudis and Kuwaitis then ASKED for our help... so we came and kicked some Iraqi ass. Ya... the main reason why we helped was to protect our oil supply... but geewiz... its sure too bad that your country looks out for you and TRIES to keep the gas prices from getting out of control.
Anyway...UBL was now thourghly pissed at the US... not only because we were a non Arab country in a Holy Islamic land... but because he had been shunned by his own people... And the US had been the heroes rather than him and his band of gorilla fighters.
Hence... if Iraq wouldn't have invaded... UBL wouldn't have a reason to be quite so pissed off.)
All in all... I think the evidence points towards ourselves (especially the IT crowd) as the reason for the tech slump, and the following recession. How many of you knew that you were being overpaid for your work in the tech heydays... and yet you took the job anyway??? I know I sure did! Why would I turn down the extra cash?!?! After all I was a tech... Not an economist. And sure we liked to complain about our pointy haired bosses who made really dumb decisions... but hey... if they were dumb enough to pay us so much... we would be dumb enough to stick around. We were all guilty by association.
Ill I ask is that people TRY to be reasonable... I don't think GWB is the greatest prez... but it seems foolish to try to paste all blame on one man (or party).
Re:Perhaps militarization is the solution (Score:2, Insightful)
The US isn't a colony because the former colonists kicked the British out... twice. The rest was taken from Mexico in a war, bought from Russia and Spain, and taken, by treaty, purchase, and war, from the Native Americans. (We only bought the right to obtain the land from the French, not the land itself.)
As for the idea about putting the area above a country within the definition of that country's borders, I think there may have already been a treaty signed and passed. Or perhaps it was a U.N. resolution... either way, space is (and should be) apolitical. If the situation were to happen where borders extended for (in example) three hundred miles above the surface, then the terrestrial international situation would worsen, because it then really would be (technological) might makes right in space.
As for the "wild west" analogy, I suggest reading Ezra Meeker's Personal Experiences on the Oregon Trail Sixty Years Ago, which is the 1912, 5th edition of the book. There was surprisingly more (and more democratic) justice in the American West than one might otherwise assume.
Closing note: Be patient, for we may yet achieve our dreams of mastering space. All progress takes time.
~UP
Re:faith-based accounting (Score:3, Insightful)
But to go after Bush Sr. shows that you are simply hitting a bunch of republicans. Poppa Bush was handed an irresponsible deficit that was on its way up. By the end of his 4 years, He had started the turn in the deficit, which was the hard part. In particular, he started the budget cuts and raised taxes (which actually cost him the election). This did slow our economy, but it allowed Clinton to balance the budget. Fortunely, Clinton had the forsight to follow what poppa bush started and worked hand-in-hand with Greenspan.
Poppa Bush actually has shown that he has many times risked it all to help our country. He is a true patriot and was a great leader.
yet again, private industry does better! (Score:3, Insightful)
yet again gov't fails to lead the industry. look at the accounting issues in tyco, enron and worldcom. looks like nasa is just trying to play catchup to private industry!
Isn't that correct behaviour? (Score:3, Insightful)
> a debit to delete the error, then as a credit in
> the correct column.
Although this makes more entries, the end result is correct. In fact, GNUCash (http://www.gnucash.org) does this for ALL your entries, and calls it double-booking or something. Maybe they just need to upgrade to the latest build?
Re:$565 billion an overestimate? (Score:3, Insightful)
For example, I generate a report at the beginning of the month: A $100 + B $200 + C -$100 = $200
The next month, we discover that product B didn't wasn't $200, it was actually $300. Whatever. The point is, that the total as of now is $300, except that I have all these old printouts up till today that say it was $200.
If I go back in my ledger and change "B" with no audit history, then what happens to all those hard copies that were distributed? I can now never go back and reproduce those documents for what the budget was on a given day. And that gives auditors the heebie jeebies.
And all those managers that made project decision.. what if they looked at the first budget and thought they wouldnt be able to fund a project. If the budget is changed with no history tracking, then someone could go back and say "why did you cancel the project when there was all this money available?". At the time, it didn't appear that way.
Now, we all understand that you have the "actual" cash, vs the "perceived" number with errors. However, let's say that I purchased "C" for $100, and I send them my check. The company cashes it, and at the end of the month realizes they overbilled me by $20. "C" only cost me $80, but money still changed hands and needs to be tracked. Sure, we know what the final cost was now, but for a period of time that $20 was inaccessable, and needs to be represented.
Re:Obligitory NASA Joke (Score:1, Insightful)