Opportunity Rover Arrives at Endurance Crater 156
Mean_Nishka writes "After weeks of driving, the Mars Exploration Rover Opportunity has arrived at 'Endurance Crater.' It's a scientific treasure trove with an extensive outcrop of layered bedrock, and scientists will have to decide whether or not to send Opportunity inside for a closer inspection without getting it stuck forever - there's more information via a Monterey Herald/AP article."
Stuck Forever? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Stuck Forever? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Stuck Forever? (Score:3, Informative)
"That is like speaking of food so appetizing that no Frenchman would eat it." -- Mark Twain
And? (Score:5, Interesting)
On a side note, I don't understand the design of these rovers. Seems like they're dangerously flippable. If that happens, they're pretty much junk, right? Do they have any way of correcting themselves if one tread climbs up onto a rock and it tips over? Why not have 5 or 6 treads around the center and have the middle gyroscopiclly right itself?
Re:And? (Score:4, Informative)
Here's what I found earlier in the article:
Hope this helps.
Mycroft
Re:And? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:And? (Score:5, Informative)
Mycroft
Re:And? (Score:2, Interesting)
The conclusions from the first crater (Eagle) were mostly based on close-up images (AKA "microscope"), and "hands-on" spectrometer analy
Re:And? (Score:5, Insightful)
I think you've been watching too many episodes of robot wars where a robot gets flipped over and becomes helpless!
The rovers don't have a self-righting mechanism, but they might be able to do something with the instrument arm. NASA has done extensive testing of the rovers to determine the performance envelope.
The rovers don't move very fast, and with the cameras they can accurately map the terrain in 3D to avoid trouble spots.
Why not have 5 or 6 treads around the center and have the middle gyroscopiclly right itself?
They are limited by size & weight, and they want to carry lots of scientific instruments - that's the tradeoff they had to make. Given that the rovers have greatly exceeded their expected lifespan, I think the designers did a great good job.
Re:And? (Score:2)
Re:And? (Score:5, Informative)
I know the rover drivers etc, and am familiar with the hardware. The idea that the IDD could right the rover would get many a chuckle here at JPL, as the IDD is not load bearing, and has very slow motors.
The torques induced when spectrally imaging the magnets alone is enough to slow down the arm movements.
If the rover is flipped over, we lose all power but batteries, and probably break mechanical components in the process. Communications may become difficult or impossible. If/when that happens, it's over.
Would make one hell of a final pancam though, the ground a centimeter away from the PMA.
Cheers,
Justin Wick
Disclaimer: I do software engineering on the mission, I do not directly drive the rovers.
Re:And? (Score:5, Insightful)
On a side note, I don't understand the design of these rovers. Seems like they're dangerously flippable. If that happens, they're pretty much junk, right? Do they have any way of correcting themselves if one tread climbs up onto a rock and it tips over? Why not have 5 or 6 treads around the center and have the middle gyroscopiclly right itself?
Interesting point, and one which sendt me looking all over the web for pictures of planetary rovers. Seems like pretty much every rover we (ie, humans) have sendt out there is built on the same principles - wheels, no autoerect feature, seemingly hight center of gravity. So, I'm forced to conclude, they picked this particular design because it works.
It is, when talking about spacecraft, worth remembering that they are designed down - down to a volume to fit the launcer, down to a weight to be able to get where it's going, and down to a budget to get it of the ground in the first place.
Perhaps a tracked, selfrighting rover with wrap around tracks (like the early british tanks of WWI) would be a better design to use on Mars... but since it isn't used I'll hazard a guess that it's either not as suited as it may appear, or it may be too bulky, too heavy and too expencive.
Re:And? (Score:5, Informative)
Of course, this doesn't work if something unexpected happens like lots of soil slippage or a rock giving way (that would have to be one large rock). The rovers are programmed to go around rocks, not over them, so the chances of it tipping over are pretty low. Soil slippage like the type Opportunity saw at Eagle crater [nasa.gov] isn't going to cause the rover to tip. It was have to be a full-on landslide.
Re:And? (Score:2, Interesting)
I would imagine one of the reasons the rovers sit so high is ground clearance. It would be pretty inefficient to drive around every rock that was an inch high instead of going right over it.
Also, the wheels all sort of move up and down independently keepi
Re:And? (Score:2)
Where have you been? Other outcroppings had geologic features that showed that yes, water had been on the planet for some time.
On a side note, I don't understand the design of these rovers. .... Why not have 5 or 6 treads around the center and have the middle gyroscopiclly right itself?
The CG in relation to the support polygon defined by the wheels, doesn't appear to be too different than say
Stuck there forever? (Score:5, Funny)
I mean sure, its a long way to just put a multi-million dollar jeep, but damnit we came this far we might as well do a running jump into that thing!
Re:Stuck there forever? (Score:5, Interesting)
The rovers have a limited lifetime.
I leave it to the scientists to see this from their chair. They drove more than they expected, past the "warranty" of the rover, to get there. From now on, all is gravy. From their vantage points, they can figure out if there is anything even remotely around which would make it not worth the risk. You gotta die sometime. Might as well be doing something useful.
These ships were not made to stay in the harbor.
Re:Stuck there forever? (Score:3, Informative)
Don't worry, the scientists are well aware of the cost/benefit tradeoffs associated with this... They are all very excited about going into the c
Other targets to the south (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Stuck there forever? (Score:3, Funny)
I can just picture the rover screeming Yaaaahhhhhooooooooo!" as it plunges in or ramps out. Maybe we should let rednecks design probes
They've been there since Friday (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:They've been there since Friday (Score:2)
http://marsrovers.nasa.gov/gallery/all/opportun
The composites look so distorted and "fisheyed". The raws are just gorgeous. I hope they start taking some pics with different filters; if they take them but don't make color versions out of them... I will!
Re:They've been there since Friday (Score:2)
Spirit and the Columbia Hills (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Spirit and the Columbia Hills (Score:5, Insightful)
Ok, so maybe all you'd hear is incessant whistling of wind. Maybe Mars makes wierd noises, like the barking sands in the desert.
But for a $0.25 mic, we'll never know.
Re:Spirit and the Columbia Hills (Score:5, Informative)
BTW, in the spirit of great-minds-think-alike, the idea of sending a microphone to Mars was first suggested by the late, lamented Carl Sagan.
Mars Microphone (Score:5, Informative)
Of course, it's actually a $100,000 mic, but hey, that's pretty close to $0.25 in space dollars. :-)
Re:Spirit and the Columbia Hills (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Spirit and the Columbia Hills (Score:5, Interesting)
I'd like to see that, too. But unfortunately, the current thinking is that we won't be climbing the hills when we get there.
In fact, I just had that conversation with Larry Soderbloom, one of the top scientists on the mission. My side was, basically: "But, Larry, the view would be so cool." :-) He readily agreed, but unfortunately, there's just nothing scientifically compelling up there. (As best we can tell from orbital imagery, that is.)
However, MOC [msss.com] images (MOC is the camera system on the MGS spacecraft) show that there's a lot of cool stuff in the hills' vicinity, making them a worthwhile destination anyway. There are rock outcroppings on the hills themselves, which we'll be able to see fairly well even without climbing to them, and several geological features of great interest in the 500m or so around the hills. (Now that we've upgraded the rovers' flight software, we're regularly covering 70m+ per sol -- indeed, we just set a new Spirit single-sol record of 92m -- so 500m is roughly a week of driving.) As a result, that area is likely to give us our best chance of telling the "water story" we came to Gusev to find.
Incidentally, we're shooting for reaching the hills in about 40 more days (we're targeting sol 160; we just planned sol 119). Stay tuned.
FWIW, as spectacular as the view would be in other respects, I don't think the Gusev Crater rim would look any better from the top of the hills. It's faint because of the high tau (atmospheric opacity) caused by the global dust storm that preceded our landing, and which is still settling. Maybe the view would be better from a little higher, but I doubt it. The good news is that the rim is showing up better and better as the atmosphere clears, so we'll get better views of it over time even without climbing the hills. (If you've never noticed the rim in the images, you can see it in this image [nasa.gov] if you look carefully -- look to the right of the hills, at the right-hand edge of the image. It's faint, but that's the rim of Gusev Crater.)
Re:Spirit and the Columbia Hills (Score:2)
I was always curious about the heatshield or backshell sites. I doubt the backshell would be useful (due to chemical contamination of the surroundings due to residues from the backshell's engines), but the heatshield - an object with a known mass, known altitude at time of separation,
Re:Spirit and the Columbia Hills (Score:2)
No, I *don't* know how we'd power the drive system of a mini camerabot without a big plate of solar cells. Maybe you'll tell me. A long mylar tail with pho
My opinion (Score:5, Funny)
I am personally in favour of them sending it inside for a closer inspection without getting it stuck forever. Getting it stuck forever seems like it would be a bad idea...but maybe that's just short-term thinking on my part.
Re:My opinion (Score:2)
The 90 day mission is over... consider it the cost of doing business with Mars.
No seriously, if we consider the rover to be above the mission it was sent to do, then it will fail at the mission it was sent to do. If the crater looks awesome, then by all means send her in!
Nice MER Animation (Score:5, Interesting)
Mars Exploration Rover [maasdigital.com]
(requires Quicktime, me thinks)
Re:Nice MER Animation (Score:4, Informative)
Don't jump to conclusions... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Don't jump to conclusions... (Score:5, Interesting)
What would be interesting is knowing how far the rovers can go. Being robots, not humans there would be a fair few limitations in their exploration.
Re:Don't jump to conclusions... (Score:5, Informative)
Thier data indicates that at about 25 degrees an uphill climb becomes impossible because of the slippage. so all they need to do is find a usuable slope under 25 degrees in angle.
Mycroft
Re:Don't jump to conclusions... (Score:5, Interesting)
The robot platform that they were using had a styrofoam head mounted on top of a cylinder with a pair of treads. The head had two cameras mounted where the eyes would be and two microphones mounted where the ears would be. The idea was that the robot would be able to understand simple voice commands, be able to detect transient obstacles (mostly people) using the cameras, and be able to track its location using the cameras (landmarks) and treads (distance rolled).
By the end of the semester, we actually had it working halfway decently. One issue we encountered with tracking distance using how much the treads had turned was that the treads tended to slip when turning and also on dusty/dirty patches of the floor, so that over time the internal position diverged from the actual position (which is where the cameras came in).
Now seeing as how this was almost 10 years ago and it was just a bunch of undergrad and grad students, I'm sure that the specialists at NASA have been able to accomplish something truly amazing with their rover. My hats off to them.
Re:Don't jump to conclusions... (Score:4, Informative)
The rovers can reduce the angle of a slope by going diagonally up a slope. In a conical crater, a rover could traverse the sides in a spiral pattern to reach the top. Assuming it doesn't slip down as much as it is trying to move up.
The safest route is straight up and straight down. A roll over is more likely when going sideways on a slope.
Re:Don't jump to conclusions... (Score:3, Informative)
No Parking Sign (Score:3, Funny)
Re:No Parking Sign (Score:4, Funny)
Ah, but chances are they'd just clamp one of the Rover's wheels and then we'd have to call this guy [anglegrinderman.org] to bail them out.
Forever, or until the solar panels die... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Forever, or until the solar panels die... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Forever, or until the solar panels die... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Forever, or until the solar panels die... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Forever, or until the solar panels die... (Score:1)
You sound like you're talking about valve...
Re:Forever, or until the solar panels die... (Score:4, Interesting)
Surely at *some* point the dust deposition on your panels would balance out to the amount of dust being blown off them - whether it's at some useful percentage remains to be seen I guess.
When it gets real tough they could always turn it into a permanent station - just park up in an interesting (preferably high-ish) spot, change your firmware to boot up once a day and send an "I'm Still Here! Temp -30degC Pressure 6mbar location..... as before" message.... once a week or at local noon try and squeeze enough juice into (and out of) your fruited batteries to take a photo.
Re:Forever, or until the solar panels die... (Score:5, Informative)
You could always just (as I presume they will) slowly restrict operations as effeciencies wear down. (Nah, stay here today, charge batteries for a trip tomorrow)
The problem is that at some point the panels are not generating enough energy to keep the rovers hot over night, so the internal temperature of the components cannot be maintained at their operational level, and then NASA expects that they will start having component failures.
Wide tempurature swings the biggest buggaboo (Score:2, Informative)
Indeed. The swing in tempuratures is estimated to be the biggest risk. Electronic components constantly expanding and contracting due to day-to-night-cycle tempurature changes eventually works things loose and cracks stuff.
The sec
Re:Forever, or until the solar panels die... (Score:2)
This has already been covered to death (Score:2)
Wipers would have been too expensive, too bulky, too prone to failer, etc., etc. So they opted to have more instrumentation instead.
Next gen rovers sound more interesting since they will be all nuke from what I heard.
out of time, out of range (Score:2, Insightful)
Lomg time. (Score:5, Interesting)
"...decide whether or not to send Opportunity inside for a closer inspection without getting it stuck forever"
Whether it is sent into the crater or remains outside and nearby, what is the likelihood that the rovers will *ever* be recovered? Won't they then be "stuck forever" anyway? Also, they just sent the rover to this place over many days. If this wasn't the best place to get stuck, why did they bother?
Re:Lomg time. (Score:3, Interesting)
One would hope that eventually somebody will recover Pathfinder/Sojourner, Spirit, and Opportunity. Heck, maybe one day somebody will find the remnants of Beagle 2 and figure out just what happened.
The idea isn't unprecedented. Apollo 12 landed at the Surveyor III landing site. They didn't pick it up, but I supposed they could hav
Re:Lomg time. (Score:3, Informative)
Yes, in fact they did -- some bits of metal and fabric, to study the effects of radiation and micrometeor pitting over time.
Re:Lomg time. (Score:3, Funny)
Endurance crator? Who comes up with these names... (Score:5, Funny)
The crater has no distinguishing features!
You...
[x] descend and explore the surroundings
[_] circumvent the crater and continue your previous explorations
You are basked in a strange and comforting light!
+ Strength 1
+ Endurance 30!
+ Agility 2
+ Intelligence 1
You found a new item! Unremarkable Rock of Endurance (+14)
[x] keep
[_] drop
You leave the crater and continue your explorations.
You drive over a rock askew and fall onto your back, unable to right yourself!
> Cast Roll Over (level 2)
You must roll 14 or better to cast this spell.
> 1d36
Opportunity (level 3 Rover of the Martian Plains) has rolled a 08
You continue to lie immobile on your back in the cold Martian evening. Slowly, your batteries lose power and a darkness begins to come over you. As you desperately struggly against the dying of the light, your thoughts go back to your maladjusted childhood...
Chapter Two... (Score:1)
From The Sound of Music (Mars Edition) (Score:5, Funny)
Now THIS is an interesting picture: (Score:5, Interesting)
Take a gander at the center of the crater. How many folks familiar with wind eroded ice recognise that kind of formation?
Re:Now THIS is an interesting picture: (Score:2)
Just wish I could be there to take it!
Re:Now THIS is an interesting picture: (Score:2)
Grr, use html for links! :)
click for pic [nasa.gov]
Reason enough to change my desktop background (Score:2)
Sure there will be more to come, but that image alone is the best "WOW" I've had in a while, at least in the intellectually satisfying but not invented here category.
Thanks for posting it, and to the poster of the clickable link for lazy people like me.
Re:Now THIS is an interesting picture: (Score:3, Interesting)
What caught my eye was the 'tendrils' on the right that appear to be flowing down the crater. Could it be an underground water source spilling water into the crater whenever the temperature and pressure are high enough? I think so.
Re:Now THIS is an interesting picture: (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Now THIS is an interesting picture: (Score:3, Interesting)
And those tendrils, as someone else pointed out, look to be seepage flowing out onto the surface and freezing. Eventually it would work its way downhill (gravity and all) as the water continued to push out, the stuff coming later protected, even for the barest few moments, by the ice that was just formed. I
Re:Now THIS is an interesting picture: (Score:2, Insightful)
It is not really that different from other wind-blown dust patterns found elsewhere on the mission. Light-colored soil/dust tends to stick to parts that "stick up". For example, the edge of Eagle Crater had light dust at the crests. If you remove the light-colored tips, then they would look like regular dust dunes.
But, until you go, you don't know.
By the way, they could not recreate
Hey Dude... Surf's up... (Score:2)
Re:Now THIS is an interesting picture: (Score:3, Interesting)
I'll play killjoy here - and place 10 quatloos that the bottom formation is accumulated sand (possibly crusted up like some of the soil we've seen before), and the crater wall formations are indicative of a change in composition of the underlying bedrock.
But I'd really like to get that rover dow
How Endurance Crater Got Its Name (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:How Endurance Crater Got Its Name (Score:2)
Was Mrs Chippy [google.co.uk] considered?
Re:How Endurance Crater Got Its Name (Score:2)
Columbia Hills (Score:2)
News disappearance? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:News disappearance? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:News disappearance? (Score:2)
Once you get beyond "we sent robots to Mars and they worked!" you're kind of out of headline material for the average newspaper. Most editors will consider further results a yawn until we get the first pictures of something waving its claws at the rover.
Re:News disappearance? (Score:2)
Re:News disappearance? (Score:5, Interesting)
The rovers quickly became "old" news for most editors. How many pictures of rocks and sand dunes can the average public handle? Niche writers - the hardcore science writers - could be handled one on one. No doubt travel budgets were a factor. Even /. stopped covering it.
Besides, the daily press briefings were likely a real time sink for the rover teams, getting ready, attending and following up on the questions.
Besides, when the briefings stopped and the daily news articles stopped, the real science could start. The really great thing is while 15 years ago, we could have never followed what was happening day-to-day, these days, all you had to do was check the rover website.
But, I bet we see a flurry of articles Thursday/Friday as they release the color images of Endurance. But just for the day. Perhaps some more when Opportunity dives into the crater.
Re:News disappearance? (Score:2)
Re:News disappearance? (Score:2)
Frustrated at Denver museum (Score:2)
However my main complaint is that some of the curators truncate the Rover images and show the launch videos and animations over and over. This is because some patrons complain about the "bor
Re:News disappearance? (Score:2)
Harakiri (Score:5, Insightful)
If you look at the driving plan [nasa.gov] thus far and at the surroundings [nasa.gov], you see that endurance crater is pretty much the only big interesting feature in the area. Also, given the finite life of the rovers (extended design life is 180 days?) there must come an end some time. The rovers seem to operate perfectly right now, but i believe that the thermal cycling of the batteries is a definite show-stopper in a couple of months. Considering this, i think it is a fair gamble to drive into the crater with the risk of never coming out. If you do you might get some very interesting data on all the deep soil layers. By the time you would get out you are almost dead anyhow.
Re:Harakiri (Score:2, Interesting)
There are lots of whitish patches further to the south (outside of your images) that may be more rock flatbeds. But they may just be more of the same as seen already, from the same geological layer. Plus, they are a bit far. Thus, I tend to agree with you, Endurance looks like the best bet even with the risk because the impact that made the crater se
This looks familiar..... (Score:5, Funny)
Proof of Life (Score:2)
It's like a horror movie where you are yelling at the rover not go in there, but the dumb, clueless rover goes in there anyways, oblivious of impending doom.
why no audio recorder? (Score:2, Insightful)
seriously, nasa can probably produce a 'relaxing moments: sounds of mars' cd to fund the next mission.
ok, really seriously, i think it would be fun to 'hear' mars, assuming that the atmosphere is thick enough to have sounds. even if it's nothing but howling winds.
Wiggled! (Score:2)
Next time (Score:3)
an electrical motor with a steel wire attached to the axis and an anchor bolt to attach this to the ground. Any time the rover would have to descend into a crater like that it could attach the anchor to the ground and use the wire to get out of the crater later on.
Re:Next time (Score:4, Informative)
There is (Score:2)
2. Non nuclear bombs require oxygen to explode
Re:There is (Score:3, Informative)
As to the second, it's not entirely true. It is possible to make all sorts of explosive device that eigther don't depend on combustion (IIRC tnt explodes not by combustion, but
Re:There is (Score:2)
2. Non nuclear bombs require oxygen to explode.
Uhm. Wrong. Sort of. I suggest you find whoever told you that and ask them to bother learning stuff before opening their mouth. An explosive carries it's own oxidiser, just like a rocket. Thats one reason why a rocket can be considered a (barely) controlled explotion. Therefore a bomb (and a rocket) works pretty much anywhere - on earth, in outher space and on Mars.
However, to tackle the question asked by the grandparent; A crater that is natural may (or ma
Re:There is (Score:3, Informative)
I guess I was thinking you would ideally use a bomb that can use atmospheric oxygen, but maybe they don't really exist.
You can probably make a bigger crater by crashing the craft it came in anyway.
Re:There is (Score:2)
An example of a bomb that uses atmospheric oxygen is the FAE [fas.org] (fuel/air explosive).
Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
Um, some moderators are smoking crack (Score:2)