MagLev Trains Annoyingly Loud 251
crem_d_genes writes "You might hear that whistle blowing from that train coming 'round the bend, but tapes of the sounds produced by magnetically levitated and normal trains produced a result that was something of a surprise: Most people rated maglev trains as more disturbing than standard intercity trains. It had been previously known that the two types were about equally loud, but this study analyzed people's reactions to them. Since the effects on the environment will be part of the feasibilty studies for future development, acoustical engineers will have some new challenges. Some participants in the study said the sound made them 'feel insecure, some found it startling, and disliked the occasional shrill sound the maglevs produced.' The researcher postulated that unfamiliarity with the noise might be part of the problem."
Audio links (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Audio links (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.transrapid.de/de/medien/video.html [transrapid.de]
They're mostly commercials, but you can get an idea of how it sounds like (try the "Test Facility Emsland" video).
Re:Audio links (Score:3, Informative)
http://www.transrapid.de/real/mpeg/TR_TVE_en.mp
Noise Qualities (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Noise Qualities (Score:2)
Re:Noise Qualities (Score:2)
Re:Noise Qualities (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Noise Qualities (Score:3, Funny)
I can't wait 'til one of the X-Prize guys lands in a farmer's field... "Do'ya come in peace?"
Re:Noise Qualities (Score:2)
Re:Noise Qualities (Score:5, Interesting)
Maybe it's a Pavlovian response. The sound of an old Huey is basically that of a machine either coming to kill you or coming to carry you off to be killed.
The huge whirling blades are subliminal reinforcements of the motif of the 'grim reaper'.
Re:Noise Qualities (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Noise Qualities (Score:3, Insightful)
Some helicopters are engineered for noise.. (Score:3, Interesting)
Of course what helicopters sound like in movies is usually different than in real life. Friends of mine can tell you what chopper is coming just by the sound from the blades.
That being said, instead of masking the sound of the train perhaps they can tune it to sound more pleasant
Re:Some helicopters are engineered for noise.. (Score:5, Informative)
1. Planting heavy shrubs near rail lines. Plantings can be designed to absorb specific sound spectrums.
2. Sound blocking berms or fences.
3. Double foundation walls with an air cavity between which don't allow sound transfer through the ground.
4. Larger setbacks from the noise source.
Re:Some helicopters are engineered for noise.. (Score:3, Informative)
Seriously though, why don't they try using small speakers placed along the line of the train which project anti-soundwave patterns so the two cancel each other out. Like the devices now being put into people's homes? And for those inside as well. [soundcoat.com]
Here's another site about quieting down buses et al. [quietsolution.com]
Oh well. I looked and could not find the sound device (electronic) which matches incoming sounds and then creates the alternate s
Re:Noise Qualities (Score:5, Interesting)
In contrast, a running AC can make quite a bit of noise, but the sound is continuous and similar to white noise. Almost no-one has trouble falling asleep to the sound of an AC, in fact, if you are being kept awake by a dripping faucet or other noises, switch on the AC and its noise may drown out the rest, allowing you to sleep. (I know, not the most environmentally sound solution...)
That's the problem with sound pollution laws: they only take sound levels into account.
Re:Noise Qualities (Score:3, Offtopic)
If the wind is blowing continuously and the frame of your house is creaking continuously you'll probably fall right asleep. If the frame of the house creeks once every 15 seconds you'll think Jack the Ripper is out to get you...
Odd thing about trains... (Score:5, Interesting)
Can anyone explain this to me about um... "traditional" train sound, because I've always wondered: Why are they so loud at night? I know trains run through the city here regularly, and I can't hear the train whistles where I live during the day, even though I know they still toot them, but at night I can here the trains that have got to be at least ten miles from here. Why is that?
I would be curious if the sound of these kinds of trains carried in the same way. Normal train whistles aren't really unpleasant, but I wouldn't want to be listening to screeching noises from several miles away while I was trying to sleep. (The fact that I usually sleep during the day is irrelevant. =P)
Re:Odd thing about trains... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Odd thing about trains... (Score:2, Interesting)
In the middle of the night there is no solar heating.
Have you noticed that during the day there is almost always a breeze (which generates low levels of noise), but often on a clear night there is a dead calm.
Re:Odd thing about trains... (Score:2)
Interesting...!
I always thought perhaps there was some peculiar quality of train whistles, since I don't hear far away car horns at night, or things like that...
Re:Odd thing about trains... (Score:2)
(Train geekiness follows: Trains haven't normally had "whistles" since the age of steam locomotives. They were quite loud, and could range from pleasant to shrill. Some of the later steam locomotives actually had an air horn as well to use in populated areas. Steam whistles make a little bit of noise when used with normal compressed
Re:Odd thing about trains... (Score:5, Interesting)
White noise is a very good thing if you want to not hear certain sounds. In some doctor's offices they have little noisemakers that plug in and just make a little whirring noise. They serve absolutely no other purpose at all. They just obscure the conversations between the patients and the receptionists.
I employ a similar technique to reduce the apparent noise I notice from the dorm hallway. I don't actually buy special noisemakers though, instead I have several computers and lots and lots of fans. It works fairly well to drown out talking, but it doesn't get rid of the booming bass from the neighbors.
Re:Odd thing about trains... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Odd thing about trains... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Odd thing about trains... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Odd thing about trains... (Score:3)
'Keep your hands inside the train at all times' and
'Roollllll up, two tokens a ride, only two tokens a ride! Sit on the outside, the west side it's the best siiiide!'
Add to that the 10 year old techno music and it's a cacophony!
Re:Odd thing about trains... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Odd thing about trains... (Score:2, Informative)
To summarize, during the day the presence of "masking" sounds makes it more difficult to hear distant sounds. At night, fewer masking sounds are present.
Re:Odd thing about trains... (Score:2)
Choo-choo. Didn't your parents ever buy you toys?
Next!
Re:Odd thing about trains... (Score:2)
Just crayons and pencils. =(
Re:Odd thing about trains... (Score:3, Interesting)
If there is a large body of water between you and the train tracks, or if you're in an area with weird cooling characteristics, you might be hearing the effects of a temperature inversion.
Air temperatures right above large
Re:Odd thing about trains... (Score:2)
1) The air is cooler and stiller at night - which lets sound pass through more easily
2) The trains will toot there horn more at night, as the drivers can't see as far.
3) At least in the UK, there are relatively more heavy goods trains on the rails at night compared to during the day, which are way heavier and so take much longer to stop - hence they needed louder horns to warn people further away.
4) As other people have mentioned ambient noise is much lower at night, s
Re:Odd thing about trains... (Score:4, Funny)
So keep all of your white noise theories and I'll keep my "train engineers are assholes that just want to wake up all of the sleeping people at 3 a.m." theory.
Re:Odd thing about trains... (Score:4, Funny)
Maglev audio/video clips (Score:5, Informative)
Let the
Re:Maglev audio/video clips (Score:4, Informative)
Anyway, here's the easiest solution I can think of to this problem of the high pitched noise: Don't live near the tracks if it bothers you!
Also, they could construct a dome around the tracks... Though that would cost a lot of money.
For a real solution, perhaps they could also try that method [slashdot.org] the guy at BYU used to reduce noise from cpu fans.
White noise generators? (Score:4, Interesting)
Of course, if it works too well it'll sound like someone's letting the air out of every tire in the block...
Re:White noise generators? (Score:5, Interesting)
The same thing happens on airplanes. If you're ever flying somewhere, bring your walkman/mp3 player. Compare the volume you have it set to for normal use with what you have to crank it to when on the airplane. It's pretty disturbing how high the noise floor is on an airplane. (I wear earplugs on airplanes for just this reason.)
Re:White noise generators? (Score:3, Funny)
No, that's just the air conditioner.
I'd like to hear the sounds because ... (Score:5, Interesting)
The sound of a regular train (been a while since I've heard one) is rythmic, higher pitch clicking. I would guess that the maglev might be more lower frequency. Also, one might wonder if there's a sound beyond the range of human awareness that might be contributing to the feeling that the maglevs are "louder" or more annoying.
I dunno ... you tend to feel louder high pitched sounds in your ears, whereas the lower ones you might feel more in your body.
The author of this post would like to point out that unlike other posts, this one was more stream of thought, and less composed than his previous ones. In other words, he's talking out of his ass.
Re:I'd like to hear the sounds because ... (Score:3, Insightful)
The low sounds you can't "hear" are probably outside of your range of hearing. This is why you feel them instead. Sort of like a deaf person. They can feel the vibrations from music, but they can't hear the music.
Re:I'd like to hear the sounds because ... (Score:5, Interesting)
In my experience, high frequencies (maybe 1000 to 4000 Hz) are more sonically salient than lows. Thats why sirens and car alarms put alot of energy in those bands.
Re:I'd like to hear the sounds because ... (Score:5, Funny)
Dopeler Effect: Two similar comments from different ACs within 30 seconds of each other.
Re:I'd like to hear the sounds because ... (Score:5, Informative)
In your experience, and in everyone else's.
The Fletcher-Munson Effect [webervst.com] describes equal loudness curves - our ears are signifigantly more sensitive to tones between 1-6 kHz, with a peak sensitivity at 4 kHz. However, as SPL increases, those curves flatten out - at 0 phons, a 100 Hz tone has to be 10,000 times more powerful than 1 kHz tone to sound comparable in level, but at 90 phons, they can be the exact same power level.
Hypothesis for why this is is that it came upon us during our evolution to enable us to hear baby/animal cries from far away. The physical reason is that it has to do with the resonation frequency of the inner ear cavity.
-T
Re:I'd like to hear the sounds because ... (Score:4, Interesting)
Having heard the TR08, I tend to disagree - the suckers are just loud at top speeds (although at low speeds, say <100mph, they are almost whisper quiet).
One unanticipated effect is that at high speeds, the Maglev sound has a rapid onset, which causes a 'startle' effect. Basically, one moment your environment is quiet, the next moment it's very loud, and the moment after that it's quiet again as the vehicle recedes. This might be part of the problem.
The FRA high-speed train noise guidelines try to account for this.
Aerodynamic noise problem? (Score:3, Insightful)
Indeed, this was a major issue with the upcoming
Seems feasible to me. (Score:5, Interesting)
High-pitched mechanical sounds carry a connotation of machinery operating "out of control", or running faster than it should. I'll put it this way. If you walked into, say, a widget factory, and heard the machines cranking away with a low rumble, wouldn't you feel more comfortable than if they were generating a constant high-pitched whining? In which scenario would you fear, deep down in your gut, that one of those machines is about to go haywire, break down, and shoot a cog in your general direction? This is regardless of the actual speed of the machinery. Low sounds are just less unnerving in this case. (Or so I feel...)
Perhaps the sound of a maglev operating at 150mph would be more unnerving than that of an Acela train operating at 150mph since the nature of the maglev sounds would make it "sound like" it's more likely than the Acela to disrail (even though, as a maglev, it already is 'disrailed' in a sense
Never been in a paper mill, have you? (Score:4, Informative)
But I know exactly what its doing, so its not "out of control".
Re:Never been in a paper mill, have you? (Score:2)
Fun to watch, not to touch.
Another good one was the reversing exchangers in air separation plants (that technology is now obsolete) whereby the switchover would be accompanied by a thunderous boom. Quite unnerving unless you're used to it. Timing and careful listening could be used to predict when it would happen, so bringing casual visitors to the plant could be properly scheduled.
Re:Seems feasible to me. (Score:3, Interesting)
That's an interesting insight. (I don't have mod points, so I'm word-modding. Mod Nazis, bite me.)
The reason mechanical bits sound "wrong" when making high-pitched soun
The Acela train (Score:3, Interesting)
The loudest and most annoying are the dilapidated orange line subway cars, which are very old and make a lot of clicks and clacks and screeches. The commuter rail is definitely louder, but it is uch more pleasant - a bassy rumbling, depending ont he speed
Sample maglev sound (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Sample maglev sound (Score:2, Funny)
Um.... Syndey is that way. But what does that have to do with maglev trains?
Re:Sample maglev sound (Score:2, Funny)
"Don't want to meet your daddy... just want you in my caddy..."
Wait, this was an Outkast sing-along, right? ;)
-T
freight trains (Score:5, Informative)
Now... I'm used to it.
Remember how when trains were first introduced, cattle would freak out, and the farmers were pissed at the railroad companies ?
Nowadays, trains zip by cattle many times a day, and they don't even bother to look up anymore.
Yes - people would just have to get used to the sound.
Unfortunately, people are still afraid of change - even if it's just a change in the sound of a train.
Re:freight trains (Score:2, Funny)
Kinda looks like you're saying that cows are better than people, you woulnd't be from India huh?
Re:freight trains (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:freight trains (Score:4, Funny)
That's because when no one's looking they're standing up and drinking coffee. Cows. Is there anything they *can't* do?
The sounds of silence? Oh, planes, trains, cars... (Score:5, Interesting)
Where once upon a time new technologies were just introduced, we now run the risk of getting them bludgeoned to death by special-interest groups and environmental impact statements. There is no reason why in time maglev sounds should not become a familiar part of the soundscape, barely noticed if at all, and a realisation that people might be uncomfortable with something just because it is new may help us determine whether something really is damaging or if it's just a baseless case of NIMBY (as opposed to "it really is damaging, so get it the fuck away from me") when people oppose something new.
(aplogies if this is incoherent... it's been three hours since my last coffee)
Re:The sounds of silence? Oh, planes, trains, cars (Score:2, Interesting)
Edison marched men with lightbulbs on their heads through a parade in New York . . . this scared the willy's out of many people because they associated light with fire and thought that these mens' heads were on fire . . .
As new technology becomes familiar, these things become less disturbing and
Re:The sounds of silence? Oh, planes, trains, cars (Score:2)
a friend of mine had an apartment in Chicago where the trains ran 8 feet from his window. every 7 minutes you have a train running by.
he said it did not bother him... I about lost my mind staying there one weekend. with the window open in summer you cannot yell loud enough to be heard over the passing train.
We can decide what's okay and what's not (Score:3, Interesting)
You're so right. For example, I have a new technique for extracting gold -- GOLD, I tells ya! -- from common sewage. It involves simply blasting a stream of "quicksilver" through the municipal sewer once a night. The quicksilver bonds with the fluxion and good humors in gold that's suspended in the water as a result of toothbru
Re:We can decide what's okay and what's not (Score:2)
Re:The sounds of silence? Oh, planes, trains, cars (Score:2)
I understand your point, but at the same time I wonder if "resigned to" might be more appropriate than "comfortable with". Most of the time I never notice all the noise around me, but every now and then I stop and listen to the sound of the ventilation and the computers humming and the traffic outside and think how nice it would be to be able
It should read... (Score:3, Insightful)
Most of the articles I see about these (many of them here) are about how the projects are being cancelled, or there are problems that keep holding them back.
Like the noise issue. Current trains make a lot of noise... is this noise so bad that it outweighs the benefits of a MagLev?
Mag-lev's quiet? OR Don't believe eveything on TV (Score:2)
Re:Mag-lev's quiet? OR Don't believe eveything on (Score:2)
For a guess - big fast moving train causing atmospheric displacement resulting in vibrations and thus sound. Add to that inter-car vibration, maybe some hum (and harmonics) from the power supplies on the rails, and the fact that the trains are
Re:Mag-lev's quiet? OR Don't believe eveything on (Score:2)
I figure that most of the sounds that you cite are probably somewhat similar to the sounds of a conventional train . . . with the exceptions of power supply hum and perhaps the pitch as a function of speed . . . which leads me to exactly your same question . . . how fast was the mag-lev going with respect to the conventional train?
Re:Mag-lev's quiet? OR Don't believe eveything on (Score:2)
The rest of the noise is likely from the high voltages and speeds involved. Ever hear a transformer buzz? Or an old flourecent light fixture? Same idea really. The eerie buzzing noises are probably what freak people out.
=Smidge=
Different strokes (Score:3)
Many years ago I had a girlfriend who found the clickety-clack vibration of a train, well, exciting if you know what I mean. One of her fantasies was to spend a night in a sleeper car. Unfortunately the opportunity never came up, at least not with me (:
Duh. (Score:4, Funny)
At first the 'look and feel' of windows scared the hell out of me. While now it still does. Oh, wrong example.
Other ecample. At first ringtones used to annoy but now it just irritates me. Oh, wrong example again.
To eliminate this problem... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:To eliminate this problem... (Score:2)
Vacuum (Score:3, Funny)
maybe this thai guy can help (Score:2)
Primate sound response (Score:5, Interesting)
I wonder if it's perhaps as simple as our built-in responses to shrill sounds.
Primates tend to make more shrill prolonged sounds when in distress. We are likely hard wired to go on alert when we hear distressed sounds from another primate. That would explain uneasy feelings and rating the sound as more intrusive and objectionable than a rumble and clicking sound which would be fairly meaningless to the lower parts of the brain.
It's a two fold problem that will likely call for psychologists and neurologists to determine what is so distressing and annoying about the sound, and then accoustic engineers to figure out how to alter the sound so that it no longer has that characteristic.
Nothing more than a hypothesis here, but quite testable.
Screaming (Score:4, Funny)
Not much substance (Score:4, Insightful)
What about duration? (Score:2, Interesting)
Sure the sound is annoying, but if it is gone in 15 seconds as opposed to 1 minute, I think people would get used to it.
Well I heard ... (Score:2, Funny)
Test subject puts ear on rail road track, hears train, moves of track.
Test subject puts ear on maglev track, no vibration, doesn't move off track in time - no wonder they freak out!
While we're at it.... (Score:4, Funny)
My Slashdot submission about this will be enroute to the Slashdot rejected bin in a few minutes
Simply brilliant! (Score:2, Insightful)
<sarcasm>
Wonderful approach! Ignore it and maybe the problem will go away. Why would you actually want to try to eliminate the source of the noise?
</sarcasm>
Track Design (Score:2, Interesting)
like the jet-powered turbo train before it... (Score:3, Informative)
Lies Lies and more Statisitical Lies (Score:5, Insightful)
If they polled people living in a city with a lot of commuter trains, then these people might rate the mag-lev more annoying than the conventional trains that they are already accustomed to.
If they polled people living in an area without any trains and the people weren't used to conventional train sounds, perhaps they would rate the sounds of mag-lev's and conventional trains equally annoying or more close to equally annoying than the previous group.
Characterizing the difference between these two group may help identify how much of the results of this poll are due to people not liking the idea or sound of any trains near them and how much of the dislike is specifically due to the sound of mag-lev trains.
Additionally, I think that the results would be significantly different for those that may live in cities that would benefit from mag-lev's and those that live in small towns that high speed mag-levs may pass through without stopping (One may have a more negative opinion about the sound of a mag-lev if the sound does not have any associated benefit for the individual)
Perhaps the most impartial group to sample would be a group in a city with no trains and no plans to get a mag-lev in the future . . . but then who really cares about these people anyway (with respect to the sound of a mag-lev that they will never have to deal with on a regular basis)?
Unfortunately this article, like so many others, draws conclusions from the data without giving the reader enough information to draw his or her own conclusions or even agree or disagree with the author.
Maybe.. (Score:5, Funny)
Maybe they shouldn't have used magnetic tape around gigantic magnets.
flawed tests ? (Score:2, Insightful)
he played recordings and then asked subjects (presumably in his lab) which they disliked the most ?
anyone who lives near a train laine can attest comparing the real thing (and all its physical vibration) to one of a recording played through a 100w labs hifi is laughable, really. if he had about a 50k rig he might get close to the physical vibration and noise factor , ever notice anything is annoying if its not
I've been riding a MagLev train... (Score:4, Informative)
The Maglev is definitely NOT loud, nor does the sound make you feel uneasy (you could barely hear a train passing at 100mph, and a full-speed maglev was not at all annoying either!). Plus, there are no vibrations - a little different from conventional high-speed trains.
The top speed was 430kph (almost 270mph, on tracks initially developed for a maximum speed of 100mph - the tour guide claimed).
just my 2 cents
the noise is likely caused by the chop frequency (Score:4, Interesting)
Efficiency and Noise Levels. (Score:3, Interesting)
Beats the sounds of modern warfare. (Score:3, Insightful)
Once I'd seen what they were capable of (you'll have to imagine a hundred 20mm rounds per second hitting a soldier; I'm intentionally not seeking a link), that sound took on a whole new meaning.
There's a whole ethical debate on this sort of imagery: can national security be weakened by US citizens being repulsed by the carnage our weaponry is capable of? Imagery impacted US public perceptions of the war in Viet Nam, and we've advanced a lot technologically since then.
I realize I'm off topic by here, but whining about maglev (pun intended) seems silly in comparison. As with jets and computer fans and traffic noise, maglev's purpose is considerably more benign. We can work around or get used to the sound.
Not surprising (Score:5, Informative)
Now lets apply this to trains. Normal freight trains generally produce a lot of low frequency sounds. Generally around 300Hz and below. Now the maglev trains could be a lot quieter, but if they make higher frequency sounds, even at lower dB levels, the sound will seem a lot more annoying than freight trains.
Did people like steam engines when they came out? (Score:3, Interesting)
Apples and oranges comparison (Score:3, Informative)
The maglev goes faster and when it does it pushes more air than a regular train.The power to move the train increases with the square of the velocity due to air friction. That power is what bystanders are hearing. I couldn't read the study but I'd be curious to see how people rated two trains moving at the same speed.
In any event, if maglev is ever going to prevail, noise is going to have to be dealt with. It can be done either by encasing the train in a tube to isolate the noise or better yet, encase the train in vacuum tube and then really crank up the speed since you're not shoving air out of the way. The inventors of superconducting maglev which uses repulsion instead of attraction like Transrapid figure that a train could go coast to coast in under an hour using the equivalent of about 20 gallons of gas. The cost of course is in building and evacuating a 2000 mile long tunnel.
About MagLev (Score:3, Informative)
Re:About MagLev (Score:5, Informative)
Umm, no it isn't. A German company [transrapid.de] has already built a maglev route in Shanghai. BTW, the things you see in animes are not real. The Japanese don't really have battle robots and stuff like that.
Re:About MagLev (Score:3, Funny)
The Japanese don't really have battle robots and stuff like that.
But Americans sure do! [wizkidsgames.com]
Re:Familiarity? (Score:2)
FTFB: The researcher postulated that unfamiliarity with the noise might be part of the problem.
OK, and it even got an insightful mod...
Re:Familiarity? (Score:2, Funny)