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Space Science

Nuclear 'Asteroids' Due In A Few Hundred Years 589

easyCoder writes "In this space.com article, it mentions a RORSAT satellite that has been leaking radioactive coolant, leaving little droplets of it in orbit around our planet. However, further down, it also mentions this, quoted here for maximum impact: 'After a RORSATs tour-of-duty was over, the reactor's fuel core was shot high above Earth into a "disposal orbit." Once at that altitude the power supply unit would take several hundred years before it reentered the Earth's atmosphere.' Wow. So ... our great-grandchildren can expect a lovely day, partly cloudy with the occasional nuclear reactor plummeting down from outer space."
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Nuclear 'Asteroids' Due In A Few Hundred Years

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  • I doubt it. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Skynet ( 37427 ) on Tuesday March 30, 2004 @03:13AM (#8711741) Homepage
    I would hope in a few hundred years we have the technical expertise to do an "orbital cleanup" job and get rid of all the crap floatind around the Earth.

    Maybe zap them with laser beams!
  • by Phoenixhunter ( 588958 ) on Tuesday March 30, 2004 @03:14AM (#8711753)
    Well we've invested in the laser technology haven't we? And those things were designed to cook nuclear missiles...
  • by RollingThunder ( 88952 ) on Tuesday March 30, 2004 @03:15AM (#8711754)
    How much material are we talking? Will this be a major event to the earth, or will the upper atmosphere just shrug and eat it up?

    It's a pretty freaking big planet. If we're talking about 5kg of fissionables, that seems pretty small to me compared to the daily dosage the planet gets from the sun - although I do understand there's one hell of a difference between solar radiation and vaporous uranium - the latter's toxic as well as radioactive, iirc.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 30, 2004 @03:15AM (#8711756)
    "I mean we're meant to be progressing in our knowledge and abilities, no?"

    The environmentalist, anti-nuke, anti-industry, anti-technology groups are going to do everything in their power to see that we don't.
  • by ForestGrump ( 644805 ) on Tuesday March 30, 2004 @03:18AM (#8711775) Homepage Journal
    we would have blown ourselves to bits with our nukes anyway.

    So who cares about a nuclear reactor floating out there somewhere in earth orbit?

    -Grump
  • by phonex98 ( 686395 ) on Tuesday March 30, 2004 @03:22AM (#8711796)
    that seems pretty small to me compared to the daily dosage the planet gets from the sun - although I do understand there's one hell of a difference between solar radiation and vaporous uranium - the latter's toxic as well as radioactive, iirc.

    However.. the earths magnetic field, stratosphere and all of that other junk up there in the sky protects us from most of the most harmful damage of the sun, whereas 5KG of fissionables wouldnt be Dilluted by the earth's atmosphere!
  • by core plexus ( 599119 ) on Tuesday March 30, 2004 @03:30AM (#8711824) Homepage
    In my thinking, this statement from the article suggests a very serious problem: ""We are on the threshold, if we have not already exceeded it, of reaching a 'critical density' of objects in low Earth orbit, where collisional fragmentation will cause the debris environment to slowly grow even if all other sources are eliminated.""

    All our plans for regular space travel, not to mention all kinds of other space uses, will be in jeopardy. Paint chips, bolts, pieces of wire, etc. We need some really smart people thinking about a solution to this.

    Alaska Village invited to test cheap, clean nuclear power [alaska-freegold.com]

  • Two conclusions: (Score:5, Interesting)

    by gad_zuki! ( 70830 ) on Tuesday March 30, 2004 @03:33AM (#8711840)
    Our grandchildren will be living in a new stone age after WWIII and this won't really matter or they will have the tech to take care of this long before it becomes a threat.

    The above blatantly stolen from Einstein
    "I don't know how the third world war will be fought," Albert Einstein once remarked, "but I do know that the fourth one will be fought with sticks and stones."
  • Re:Ah yes... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by onnel ( 518399 ) on Tuesday March 30, 2004 @03:42AM (#8711891)
    You're right, they were looking for U.S. missle silos...strangely portable ones called submarines. there's a very good reason they were/are snooping the oceans!

    Onnel
  • by bm_luethke ( 253362 ) <luethkeb&comcast,net> on Tuesday March 30, 2004 @03:53AM (#8711942)
    It is also possible that there is no current solution. Especially given that the sattelite was launched in 1967 I doubt they even in a position to know what the future problems would be. In fact they may have thought that plunging into the atmosphere was a good way of disposing the sattelite

    Grabbing the debris with a space shuttle right now (and in the time frame before it become dangerous) isn't going to politically fly. Not sure how much I agree with it given that the *should* be safe but the recent explosion doesn't really instill confidence. I don't know if any other countries orbiter has the capability to do it.

    While I agree we have *many* shortsighted push it off to our great-great-grandchildren this may not be the case. If it can safely be pushed off until a good solution (not just a solution) is found then that may be the best answer. Without more information I wouldn't rule out either reason.
  • by Phil Karn ( 14620 ) <karnNO@SPAMka9q.net> on Tuesday March 30, 2004 @04:15AM (#8712012) Homepage
    The article correctly emphasizes the hazard (from collisions) to orbiting spacecraft, and (correctly) says very little about the radiation hazard to us on the ground.

    In no way will I excuse the extreme sloppiness of the Russians in all things nuclear, but the radiation hazard from these things has been greatly exaggerated to sell newspapers, books and TV spots. Several of these orbiting Soviet reactors failed to go into their disposal orbits and have already fallen back to earth -- and we're still here. Yes, you could say we were lucky that they fell in relatively remote areas. But most of the earth's surface is still sparsely populated (such as the 70% that's covered by water).

    Another thing to remember about spent reactor fuel is that its radioactivity falls rapidly with time. While a reactor operates, a significant fraction of the generated power comes from the decay of short-lived fission products. This radioactive decay heat continues even after the chain reaction has been shut down; that's why emergency core cooling is so important in terrestrial reactors. Depending on the reactor design and the fuel, a few hundred years may be enough for its radioactivity to decay to that of the uranium ore from which it was originally made. This point is often lost in the shrill criticism of permanent high-level waste disposal sites.

    I do have one question about the physical properties of the NaK coolant: what is its vapor pressure? This particular alloy was chosen partly because it's a liquid at or just above room temperature, so it must have some vapor pressure that would cause it to slowly sublime in the vacuum of space. That sublimation would occur much more quickly for small droplets than large. Anybody have numbers?

  • by core plexus ( 599119 ) on Tuesday March 30, 2004 @04:31AM (#8712065) Homepage
    I'd like to agree with you, but the way it looks is this:

    The more crap we send up using our current technology, i.e. painted surfaces, fragile ceramics, bolts and wires, etc, etc. = the more crap we have to deal with, which hits something else we sent up and makes more of the same, and so on. Consider that a chip the size of a grain of sand is a serious hazard, let alone a sphere 2 inches in diameter. I've seen firsthand what a lowly 12.7 mm round can do here on Earth.

    We (The citizens of Earth) have very few people looking for or otherwise working on such problems, or should I say solutions, just as we have very few resources dedicated to the problem posed by catastrophic events such as asteroids (NEO not withstanding-a valiant effort). I guess the general populace is conditioned to accept their eventual demise, and in the meantine the drugs flowing freely from everywhere will make them docile as lambs.

    Jack O'Neill and the SG1 Team ain't gonna save us. There ain't no tomorrow land. The pocyclypse got rid of that. If you want to live, you need to learn how to find shelter, food, water, barter, and medicines from your environment. And we will need some geeks to survive, else we truly will be sent back to bone knives and sticks. For all we know, that has happened before.

    -cp-

  • by pe1chl ( 90186 ) on Tuesday March 30, 2004 @05:35AM (#8712236)
    Please note that the primary concern is not that the droplets (as a non-native English speaker I wonder if there would not be a different word than "droplets" to describe 1 to 3 inch bubbles) are radio active.

    The primary concern is that they are space debris and might hit other spacecraft.

    Now you should consider that these droplets are accidentally released (maybe by a badly designed spacecraft, but certainly not on purpose).

    Then look at the USA.
    They PURPOSELY released a load of needles in space, with the naive idea that they would remain in a small cloud and could be used as a reflector for radio signals. This is also briefly mentioned in the article.

    If anything can be called a mess, it was this "experiment". It has been a large contribution to space environment pollution.

    So before you call the kettle black...
  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 30, 2004 @05:55AM (#8712277)
    What makes you think that poster is referring to the Marines? "Semper Fi" is Latin (short for "semper fidelis") which means "always faithful" as you undoubtedly know. Universities, churches, service organizations, etc. also use Latin as their mottos, and perhaps the original poster isn't even American but... just perhaps... the "down unda" part refers to an Australian origin? There is a church in Australia which uses "semper fidelis" as their motto, but I suppose that's of no interest to your apparent American-centric worldview.

    You may also wish to consider your manners. Telling people not to speak again until they meet some arbitrary condition imposed by yourself is generally considered to be rude and, not to mention, oppressive. People in most nations these days enjoy what's known as the freedom of speech. The Marines you hold so highly are charged with, among other things, upholding these freedoms which you so easily discard. Your perceived offence at something as trivial as a username has no place in a public forum unless you actually enjoy embarassing yourself by airing all your insecurities.
  • Re:why this is hooey (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Gordonjcp ( 186804 ) on Tuesday March 30, 2004 @06:02AM (#8712292) Homepage
    Yes indeed. Even now, consider that you can run diesel engines on straight vegetable oil (as long as you keep it all warm and the seals aren't attacked). You can use washing soda and a tin bucket to crack waste veg oil down to the same carbon chain length as ordinary mineral diesel, and run it in an *unmodified* diesel engine. You can run petrol engines on practically anything that you can turn into inflammable vapours, alcohol, LPG, methane from your septic tank, whatever.


    I already run biodiesel in my car. It goes better than it does on the gunk they sell in petrol stations, and it's closer to carbon-neutral than fossil fuels. So, it's win-win. Only drawback is that when you sit for a minute to let the turbo cool before you switch off, the smell of chips, or popcorn, or pakora, or whatever was cooked in the oil, makes you *really* hungry...

  • by vandan ( 151516 ) on Tuesday March 30, 2004 @06:31AM (#8712374) Homepage
    You've seen that article too, eh?
    Yeah it's pretty scary stuff.

    I found it interesting that all of the energy sources that we currently preceive as being 'alternative' are actually dependant on oil for a number of reasons.

    I actually haven't seen a decent rebutal for it yet, and I'm looking for one - mainly to calm my nerves. So anyone out there who has a rational rebutal - not just a "he's a crank" jab, please either post it here or post a link to it or something.

    Trouble is, deep down, I know he's right. Many scientists have been warning for decades now that we simply can't continue our dependance on oil and expect to come out on top. I believe one of the US's presidential candidates ran a whole campaign around the issue - and lost by a landslide. Sad.

    Anyway, bring on the rational, critical analysis, all you right-wing bomb-dropping hippy-whipping gun-toting bastards!
  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 30, 2004 @09:12AM (#8712849)
    Satellites use plutonium cause uranium reactors are too damn huge.
  • Do The Math (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Ancient_Hacker ( 751168 ) on Tuesday March 30, 2004 @09:40AM (#8713058)
    Ok, this Excel thingy must be good for SOMETHING, let's do the math on this huge leeakage problem: Assumptions: 100 liters spread out in a shell 30 miles thick, 200 miles up, each droplet one microliter: earth radius 4000 miles distance up 200 miles orbit distance 4200 area 221670590.4 sq miles thickness 30 volume 6650117712 cubic miles coolant amount 100 liters microliters 100000000 microliters microliters/cubic mile 0.015037328 microliters/cubic foot 1.02157E-13 -------------------- So there's less than a millionth of a tenth of a millionth of a microliter per cubic foot up there. Left for the reader: how many of these droplets will a satellite with say 10sq feet of cross section intersect per year? BTW if the coolant is a liquid, isnt it likely to evaporate into individual molecules (unless it's soemthing with super low vapor pressure, like mercury) ? Regards, Ancient_Hacker
  • by jadenyk ( 764614 ) on Tuesday March 30, 2004 @09:47AM (#8713095)
    I don't see this as anti-nuclear propoganda at all. It's not the existance of this material that causes the issue. The issue stems from the dolt who decided to dispose of it by launching it out of site/out of mind. That's probably one of the most moronic things I've ever heard. (And yes, I'm sure it happens pretty regularly.)
  • I'll bite ... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Flambergius ( 55153 ) on Tuesday March 30, 2004 @10:04AM (#8713201)
    I actually haven't seen a decent rebutal for it yet, and I'm looking for one - mainly to calm my nerves.

    I don't know if the following will be much of a rebuttal, but it might calm your nerves a bit.

    To the key to understanding the article is this paragraph:
    The human spirit is capable of some miraculous things. We need a miracle right now, so the human spirit had better get its' ass in gear, pronto.

    The author is trying to shake us up into action. That doesn't mean that the science behind his polemic is necessarily incorrect, but it does mean that scientific correctness isn't his priority.

    On the whole I do agree with much of what he says. Concept of Peak Oil is credible, that's how finite resources and geometrical growth work. The world economy is based on oil and oil shortage in inevitable.

    What I don't agree is the decree to which we can cope with the depletion. The author calls alternative energy sources a hoax. According to him, for various reason, alternative energy sources aren't practical replacements for oil. I don't find his arguments convincing.

    I won't suggests that there is a single solution, like going all-out nuclear, but I will suggest that there doesn't need to be a single solution. Rather there will a whole host of solutions, competing but at the same time complementary.

    The author suggests that oil is necessary predicate for all the other energy sources. This is not true. Oil just is the cheapest energy source currently, so it is used in all manufacturing extensively. There is nothing to prevent us using, for example, electrical energy from a nuclear reactor to build solar panels or to operate a thermal depolymerization facility to "recycle" oil for the uses that oil is essential for.

    The author does not factor in increased efficiency in, well, just about everything. We can do more with less and the evolution will not stop.

    Also written off is voluntary conservation of energy by, for example, speeding limits that are build into cars.

    I think the author underestimates our ability (as a species) to adept. I don't buy the part that oil depletion will devastate our economy and cripple our ability to implement renewables (that is build the infrastructure for harvesting and distributing the energy for alternative/renewable source). Have you ever considered how much dead weight there is in our economy? How much untapped economical potential there is even in the most advanced western societies? What is the portion of workforce that are involved in fields essential for survival (agriculture, energy supply, industry and manufacture (including distribution))? I'm not saying that our society will not change, but I'm confident that in a pinch we will be able to tighten our collective belts. A new Great Depression maybe, massive die-off very unlikely.

    --Flam
  • by gewalker ( 57809 ) <Gary.Walker@AstraDi g i tal.com> on Tuesday March 30, 2004 @10:40AM (#8713593)
    Actually, there is scientific evidence that not only is low-level radiation exposure harmless, it is actually good for you, and the optimium level is well above the normal background radiation.

    Here [8k.com] Here [imakenews.com] and here [vanderbilt.edu] for example.

    It is true that any ionizing radiation can damage cellular material, but the human immune system seems to derive benefit from practicing fending off such low-level damage.

    The evididence is not conclusive for low-level radiation benefits, but there are several good studies that suggest that it is, and not one scientific study that suggest the opposite as far as I know. If so, I would like to see it. Nearly all nuclear radiation threat assesments is based on extrapolation from high-level radiation exposes.
  • Re:why this is hooey (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Minna Kirai ( 624281 ) on Tuesday March 30, 2004 @12:36PM (#8714975)
    So, it's win-win. Only drawback is

    Funny, I thought the real drawback was that producing an organic oil takes more energy than you'll recieve from burning it...

    Until we have lunar fusion plants beaming us energy on giant lasers, the production costs of artificial oil won't be worth it.
  • Re:why this is hooey (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Minna Kirai ( 624281 ) on Tuesday March 30, 2004 @12:42PM (#8715051)
    Not only that, but it is a fallacy that the earth will ever "run out" of oil.

    No, you're the one stating a fallacy. By oversimplfying to an incorrect definition of "run out", you have twisted the meaning of a claim. "Earth running out of oil" doesn't mean there are zero petroleum molecules left on the entire planet! It means we humans won't be able to acquire oil to use.

    Consider a single modern automobile. As you drive it, petrol is used up. Does it ever run out of petrol? According to your argument, it never does, because there's always some miniscule amount left in the tank, even if it can't be reached for use.
  • Re:Insignificant (Score:3, Interesting)

    by khallow ( 566160 ) on Tuesday March 30, 2004 @02:20PM (#8716537)
    It really makes me laugh when people talk about how bad mankind is to the environment, when eruptions like Mt. St. Helens released more carbon dioxide into the atmospehere in a day or two than humans have created since we started making fire. Not to mention all the nasty sulfur and nitrogen based compounds that went with it. And that was just ONE volcanic eruption. Think about Krakatoa in 1883 or even the constant eruptions that go on all over the world.

    No that's incorrect. According to the UN, the US pumped [un.org] 5.8 billion tons of CO2 into the atmosphere in 2000. Volcanism is a huge contribution to CO2 production, but the human race produces more. The US in the above report increased its CO2 production rate by roughly 15% from 1990 to 2000. Alternate sources peg the CO2 release in the same neighborhood [gcrio.org] (estimates 5.5 billion tons of the carbon portion of CO2 released into the atmosphere - that's roughly 20 billion tons of CO2 released globally per year. In comparison, natural volcanic activity [usgs.gov] releases around 130-230 million tons of CO2 per year on average.

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