Scientists Create New Form of Matter

soren100 writes "Yahoo News has a story about scientists creating a sixth form of matter. They are calling their new state of matter a 'fermionic condensate.' Somehow they got potassium atoms to form pairs similar to the 'Cooper pairs' that make superconducting possible. Maybe any quantum physicists around can tell us more about this, but it certainly sounds pretty revolutionary. The scientists are predicting that this will lead to 'room temperature solid' superconductors, which in turn will enable us to have better electricity generators, more efficient electric motors, and (our favorite) cheaper maglev trains."

Sixth form of matter?

[JessLeah]

Okay, what was the fifth? Solids, liquids, gases, plasmas, ???

Un-scientific questions

[CGP314]

So... quantum whatever... can I touch it? Without massive pain? What's it feel like?

--
In London? Need a Physics Tutor? [colingregorypalmer.net]

American Weblog in London [colingregorypalmer.net]

Look at Europe, Asia

[nniillss]

You can order a maglev from Siemens, Germany, at any time. Provided you have a deep pocket.

This is news?! :-)

[ylodi]

Croatian scientist Danijel Djurek discovered superconducting ceramic that works reliably at room temperature. Danijel says that current will flow without resistance through the material, which is a mixture of lead, lead carbonate, and silver oxides. Here is article in today's croatian daily paper (sorry, there is no translation). [vecernji-list.hr] Old news on you.com.au [you.com.au].

Re:Sixth form of matter?

[jochietoch]

Frankly, I wish they would stop claiming every phase transition to form 'the n-th state of matter'. There are literally hundreds of phase transitions in nature, especially at low temperatures. If you start calling every sector of the phase diagram 'a New State Of Matter (tm)' on an equal footing with gases, liquids and solids, you can't stop at Bose-Einstein condensates and these fermionic condensates. What about superconducting metals, vortex lattices, liquid crystals, flowing sand, and what have you. All New Forms Of Matter. That is to say, it's completely arbitrary. Sure it's cool what these guys have done, but they deliberately misrepresent their result to make a catchy headline. A scientist has a responsibility not to do that.

Re:Superconductor hype

[Anonymous Coward]

Well that's not exactly true. It's at the extremes that it is simplest to see where our models break down, so we might learn more, adjust our thinking, an make the incremental improvements to what we know well.

I think room tempeture superconducting is probably outside the scope of possible. But that doesn't mean I don't think there are tangible rewards to be had from double checking, even if my guesses are ultimately vindicated.

In a way, I lament those who share your lament. Denis Miller (I'm morbidly curious at times) thinks Mars rovers, and NASA in general are a waste of money. What's ironic is he says this on a program bounce off a satellite; proving, once again, it doesn't hurt to have an education to go together with a vocabulary.

Maglev trains are nice but...

[timepilot]

Okay, I'm all for more efficient generators and maglev trains, but I'd really like to see transporters, warp drive, photon torpedos or at the very least a good tricorder.

Any chance the *next* form of matter can help here?

Cooper Pairs

[verloren]

I'm sure there's a superconductor engineer reading this somewhere, but in the meantime I'll point out that we don't really know what causes superconductivity. Cooper pairs are a good theory, but haven't been proven to be the cause. So coming up with a substance that is similar to a thing that might cause superconductivity is hopeful, but let's not get carried away.

Cheers, Paul

Re:Practical application

[danila]

First of all, let me just say that in some way they are correct, since we can expect their work to eventually have some practical applications. But this is not terribly relevant today. What is relevant is that scientists are forced by our society to lie about these uses to get public support and public funding. Read any press releas? and it will claim the invention/discovery will help fight terrorism, fight SARS, bring fusion to reality, save people from falling skyscrapers, save soldiers' lives in the battlefield, or at least create faster computers and more effective batteries.

Here is a relevant quote from the adorable Feynman:

I would like to add something that's not essential to the science, hut something I kind of believe, which is that you should not fool the layman when you're talking as a scientist. I am not trying to tell you what to do about cheating on your wife, or fooling your girlfriend, or something like that, when you're not trying to be a scientist, but just trying to be an ordinary human being. We'll leave those problems up to you and your rabbi. I'm talking about a specific, extra type of integrity that is not lying, but bending over backwards to show how you're maybe wrong, that you ought to have when acting as a scientist. And this is our responsibility as scientists, certainly to other scientists, and I think to laymen.

For example, I was a little surprised when I was talking to a friend who was going to go on the radio. He does work on cosmology and astronomy, and he wondered how he would explain what the applications of this work were. "Well," I said, "there aren't any." He said, "Yes, hut then we won't get support for more research of this kind." I think that's kind of dishonest. If you're representing yourself as a scientist, then you should explain to the layman what you're doing--and if they don't want to support you under those circumstances, then that's their decision.

I used to have a room temperature superconductor

[panurge]

I actually had part of a sample on my desk at one point in the early 90s. It was about 3/4 of a turn from an experimental helix, and the reason that it was 3/4 of a turn was that when the current had been put through the helix it had abruptly stopped superconducting and broken up. As I understand it, this is the big problem with superconductors: the runaway thermal destruction the moment the combination of temperature and field strength exceeds the superconducting envelope.

It's interesting how all the big ideas of the 1940s and 1950s have come to nothing: no people walking around on the Moon or Mars, no widespread personal jet aircraft, no fusion reactors, nuclear power limited by safety concerns and the availability of cooling water, limited use of superconducting magnets, lasers being used in CD players rather than as enormous weapons. Fifty years later, most research seems to be into making things smaller and smaller, or making tiny quantities of exotic things (as in this case.) Surely the remaining proponents of the Big Ideas should have learned to stay quiet by now?

Trying to understand what occurs...

[GameGod0]

Ok, so we've got Potassium atoms forming Coopers pairs. In a normal Superconductive state, Coopers pairs are electrons which have opposite spin, thus resulting in a net spin of 0. Because this is a whole integer spin, they behave like bosons (according to Bose-Einstein statistics) rather than fermions. In short, they behave more like photons than electrons.

Now, according to this more informative article that someone already linked to,

"Interestingly, the constituents of matter - protons, neutrons and electrons - are all fermions, whereas a composite particle, such as an atom, is a boson if the total number of protons, neutrons and electrons is even, and a fermion if the total number is odd."

Is it that simple to make a whole atom behave like a boson? Weird.

(One more thing... According to somewhere [wikipedia.org] on Wikipedia, a proton's spin is 1/2... So if you have (-?)1/2 spin from the proton, and (?-)1/2 spin from the electron in a Hydrogen atom, how DOESN'T it behave like a boson?)

Fermion pairing was observed in superfluid He-3.

[poszi]

These are nice experiments but definitly not "a scientific breakthrough in providing a new type of quantum mechanical behavior".

Yes, fermions (particle with spin which is an odd multiple of 1/2) are different beasts than bosons (with integer spin) and fermions cannot form Bose-Einstein condensate but fermions can form pairs that are bosonic. It has been observed in many cases. Superfluid He-3 (which is fermionic) requires fermion pairing and it has been observed quite long ago (and given 1996 Nobel Prize in physics). So getting Bose-Einstein condensate from rubidium atoms is interesting research but this is not a breakthrough and not a "sixth state of matter". This is still Bose-Einstein condensate but made not from atoms but pairs of atoms.

It shouldn't be necessary

[Per Abrahamsen]

Research as fundamental as this should be funded, with no regard to practical applications. These scientists shoudn't be forced to think about practical applications, that is the job of other scientists, later in the process.

Re:Connective tissue

[Anonymous Coward]

It said a billionth of a degree C above absolute zero. Scalawag.

Re:Privatize Education

[TGK]

Are you out of your mind? The only one of those that has the slightest prayer of working is private school.... and even that will only provide an education to those who can afford it.

Argue all you like, there is a fundamental truism in Education. Those who can do, those who can't teach. The reason is simple, teaching doesn't pay shit. The related catch 22, which is that if you pay teachers more you'll attract some decent teachers but a lot of people who are just looking for job security and a nice salary, is also pretty much inescapable. Again, argue all you want, at this stage it's about what you believe about human nature.

So moving on, if the basic problem is that teachers (as a whole, there are of course individual exceptions) are some of the least qualified people in their fields. We are confronted with the problem of how to get good teachers into the classroom while introducing a minimum number of disinterested individuals. Let's examine how the three methods you advocate do that.

Private Schools -- Have the option of paying more, but frequently don't. They do have the advantage of being more or less immune to the completely insane federal regulations (such as No Child Left Behind) and therefore able to operate within the bounds of reality, but will ultimately fail the American People because we need to educate more than just the children of the wealthy. Higher scores? Of course, most standardized test scores can be expressed as a function of socio-economic status

Home schools -- Again, a problem of who can get into it. Most American families require two incomes to survive, and that's not addressing those with only one parent. How can you home school these kids?

Community Schools -- Here you encounter many of the same problems as public schools (in terms of teacher pay and regulations). This isn't solving the problem, it's shifting it off onto a community with fewer resources less able to deal with the it.

So what can we do? Well a big part of the problem is funding. Michigan has boosted test scores through the roof by socializing their education across the state. No longer is the funding of a school tied to the taxes generated locally, rather all those taxes are thrown together and applied to all schools across the state. The result is the application of funds where they are needed the most.

Another part remains the ability to attract good teachers to bad areas. Wealthy school districts with well behaved kids and lots of resources will never have problems attracting teachers. Ask at your local college's education school... most of the applications go to the ritzy 'burbs. So how do you get teachers into the inner city? The rural backwoods areas? You pay them for it of course, and you pay them in the best way possible.... student loans. Granting temporary licensure to BA and BS holders to teach for three years is fairly easy to do in most states (No Child Left Behind will make it all but impossible). Let these young graduates teach the next generation, let them emerge from those disadvantaged schools debt free and able to enter the professional world with solid experiance and confidance. The forgiveness of tens of thousands in debt will draw graduates to these jobs like nothing else and will allow these underfunded schools some of the nations brightest minds, if only for a few years.

What we're doing now doesn't work. You're right, we need real change, but not the kind of change that only benefits the few. Public education must benefit all. Should we fail even a few, we have failed the community as a whole. Education is the silver bullet. Crime? Hunger? Even longevity is beneficially affected by education. We don't need "No Child Left Behind" or school vouchers, we need to actually leave no children behind, and we need to do it be strengthening the public schools.

Re:Fermion pairing was observed in superfluid He-3

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly. At low enough temperature spin 1/2 particles (fermions) - like He-3, potassium or even electrons - can "pair off". The resulting composite particle is called a "Cooper pair". It has integer spin and may therefore condense into a Bose-Einstein condensate.

I'm not sure who is responsible for this hyperbole about "creating a new form of matter", but it is shameless. But hey, it made the news...

how is this related to this year's nobel prize?

[sluke]

This year one of the nobel prizes in physics went to Tony Legget who explained experiments over twenty years ago in which Helium 3, when cooled low enough exhibited superfluidity. In this scenario the Helium 3 which is a fermion pairs up much like low Tc cooper pairing (except in a p-wave state). This allows it to flow without resistance in addition to giving it interesting magnetic properties. What I would like to know is how this experiment is different from the experimental work on Helium 3. It seems that both involve pairing of fermion atoms to form bosons, except that somehow in this example there are charge carriers... Does someone have a reference to the article at the preprint archive (or in a journal)?

Re:This is news?! :-) - Looooose translation

[ZackStone]

I finally get to use my croatian knowledge for something ....

Here we go:

Huge Discovery

Danijel Djurek manufactured a techologically revolutionary material that helps conserve energy.

Croatian physycist discovered a conductor of electicity without resistance. Even though results are verified additional investigation is still needed according to Mladen Prester from the Physics Institute

Conduction of electiricity without loss and vehicles which with their small electrical motors travel thousands of kilometars [without recharching i guess] will soon be an everyday occurance. This revlutionary discovery, a material composed of led, silver, oxygen and water [maybee hydrogen], surounded by [i think] copper, performs as a superconductor, insists the croatian physisist Dr. Danijel Djurek. The global independant labaratory already verified this croatian scientists discovery and have announced a new technological revolution.

Some are skeptical

The quest for superconductivity, transfer of electricity without loss resulting from resistance, lasted 15 years. Massive production of wires and the installation of new materials in various compontens, ie. speakers and electrical motors, should begin in the upcoming months in Croatia and should expand throughout the world afterwards. If it suceeds, a new industrial branch should make a contribution to croatian economy.

The world acknowledges

In order for a scientific discovery to be acknowledged and subsequently published in various journals it has to be verified by independent labaratories whose members are secretely selected by teams of particular journals. Dr. Danijel Djurek's discovery has been given the green light by the independant labaratory. As a result of which an article in The Economist, Scientific American, New Scientist and a scientifict brach of New York Times, about the new superconductive material has been published. This is a landmark discovery for technology and [maybee economy, not sure]. With current techniques, transmition over high power electrical lines, results in a loss of 30% of the manufactured power. An additional 20% is lost at the consumer level. The new material is not only ecologically acceptable and will save electrical energy, time and money - said Dr. D. Djurek. Despite the support of coleagues and scientists from other parts of the word and a despite a worldwide [maybee global] ackowledgment many remain skeptical becuase Djurek's material does not emit a magnetic field. More correcty, Meissner's [something maybee work] which was though to be required in order for a material to be superconductive.

I will continue in next post as it is not relevant to discussion any more but will be there in case you want to read.

should called it "nobelium"

[peter303]

When you see hype like this, they are gunning for the Nobel prize. I doubt they'll grant one for fermiotic matter, since it is an extension of the efforts that creatic Einstein-Bose matter and won the nobel in the late 1990s.

Re:Quandry

[Noren]

"I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics." - Richard Feynman, Nobel Prize winner for his work on Quantum Electrodynamics.

It is said that in order to teach a subject well you have to understand it well- this is likely one of the reasons it's so hard to teach or explain Quantum.

When trying to explain a complex subject simply, there comes a point where the only way to simplify a subject further is to either miss the point entirely or to get something drastically wrong. Quantum mechanics really can't be well described without lots and lots of math- the point where further simplification makes the explanation wrong happens when the 'simplified' explanation is still very complicated and hard to understand.

Plus...

[DarkMan]

"sixth form of matter"

So, let's count, shall we - we have:

1. Solid.
2. Liquid
3. Gas
4. Plasma
5. Bose-einstein condensate
7. Nemetic liquid crystals
8. Smetic liquid crystals
9. The other type of liquid crystals whoes name escapes me
10. Glass (Arguable)
11. That funky stuff that neurtron stars are made of
12-15 truely wierd QM stuff, like charmonium

And now, the newest member: 6

Maybe, just maybe, that's an over hyped term. There are lot's of states of matter. I've probably missed some.

Can we please kill the meme that there are only a very small number.

Yours, a miffed quantum materials physicist

Re:Sixth form of matter?

[kevininspace]

How about the condensed matter that white dwarf stars are made of? Nuclei bouncing about in an electron soup. Heat it and it shrinks! This stuff is held up by the Pauli exclusion principle for crying out loud, it has to be another form of matter

How about neutronium? this stuff is weird, governed by the strong force.

Re:the Pauli Exclusion Principle...

[geekoid]

"yeah, I've got a degree in it. But engineering pays better."

unless you invent a room temp. super conductor...