Could Broadband Over Power Lines be Dangerous?

falconfighter writes " Broadband over Powerlines, once touted as the solution to many internet problems (developing 3rd world countries, etc.) has a new hazard. The system basically involves putting high amounts of modulated RF on a power line. The Amateur Radio Relay League has the most informative page on the topic. The hazards include exceeding MPE (maximum permissable exposure), RF burns, and disrupting the HF bands of radio. This last one would also work in reverse, meaning hams, airplanes, or the military keying up their radios could take out large areas of internet service (with airplanes, potentially over several hundred miles)."

3rd world?!?

[prufrax]

How can broadband over powerlines be a solution for the 3rd world? Surely you need most people connected to mains power first!

Neighborhood popularity of amateur radio

[rharkins]

Having an amateur radio antenna is like a lightning rod for neighborhood electronics problems. I've not transmitted for a couple of years now, but that has not stopped neighbors from blaming me for every glitch that occurs with their electronics. I can imagine what will happen if I key up my transmitter and disrupt every internet connection for a couple of miles....

"Dangerous" is overstating it

[robslimo]

Hams are more concerned about the interference issue than the health risks, and rightly so. The potential health hazards created by modulating the power lines should be minimal, assuming the level of modulation is kept reasonably low.

The interference caused to more traditional RF communications is likely to be significant because you are, in effect, stringing miles and miles of antenae across the countryside. The best bet might be to modulate on bands that are presently home to digital communication and in coordination with those present modulation schemes such that they don't interfere with each other.

I suspect the whole issue may be moot, as I doubt that BPL will ever see a largescale rollout for other technical reasons besides these.

Re:3rd world?!?

[grub]

Exactly.

Considering that they have yet to get power to so many of these areas, wouldn't it be wise to run fiber optic at the same time as they run new powerlines? The fiber could handle all their telecom and network traffic. Even TV, etc.

New radios for everybody!

[mr_mischief]

Yes, it's great policy to make people who buy their own equipment, pay for their own training, pay for their licenses, and must agree to use their own time and own private equipment for public service when necessary go out and pay for new training, new licenses, and new equipment just to keep the privileges they now have.

Re:New radios for everybody!

[Zondar]

And the rest of the world, since it's hard to talk to someone on UWB who still has old equipment...

Re:Solution?

[Zondar]

What about those spider-web of antennae known as house wiring?

You can't realistically shield everything in the current state of the power distribution network...

I wish

[Anonymous Coward]

I wish we would stop throwing all sorts of half-assed technologies at the problem. Simply dig a hole, put some fiber in it and drown people with bandwidth. Yeah, it's going to cost more and it'll take longer, but it will also LAST us longer. I am typing this on a collaboratively installed 100 MBit/s ethernet which is attached to other similar networks via a city-wide gigabit backbone. We did a lot of digging and paid thousands, but it was so worth it.

Re:First, and...

[BoldAC]

What the heck? I know St. Louis-based Ameren has been testing this for over a year. [wired.com]

I have seen a lot of data and reports on the interference problems which I think we all expected. However, I have not seen anything that this would be actually dangerous. Surely with the testing somebody would have noticed if people were getting zapped.

I would like to see some data before labelling this as potentially dangerous to one's health.

AC

What?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hams are "set against this PLC thingie" because it would basically wipe out our service. The ARRL has fought encroachment onto our allocationtions for seventy-five years, and rightly so: ham radio trains young people in electronics and provides a free, emergency communications service that works even when "the grid is down." Ironically, my first exposure to IRC was on a ham TCP/IP packet network.

As far as "no clear TV or radio signal for you" goes, interference cases almost always trace back to poor shielding on consumer electronics devices, not dirty ham transmitters. If your TV can't deal with 1500 watts next door, I'm sure your local ham would be glad to put a passband on it. Which, as a result of ham radio, he knows how to do.

KB3CAX

Re:3rd world?!?

[77Punker]

Right on! Furthermore, when these people have power, they still won't have computers. Even if they got computers, they'd have bigger problems on their mind.

Re:3rd world?!?

[vidnet]

You're underestimating 3rd world countries. When National Geographic shows people living in trees or mud huds, it's because they document tribal people, not because it's representative of the population. 3rd world countries have buildings, cities and electricity like other places, only perhaps a bit less of them.

Just raining money over there...

[Valdrax]

Considering that they have yet to get power to so many of these areas, wouldn't it be wise to run fiber optic at the same time as they run new powerlines?

Oh, how Insightful. I mean, when wiring the third world, obviously money is no problem!

Reality check -- the reason why this is suggested as a solution for the third world is that all they have to do is just run the power cables instead of running the power cables and some other cabling system for phone, TV, and internet. We are talking about people who current can't even afford to run the power cables, much less fiber optic cables too.

Yes, BPL is harmful

[bgelb]

I'm not quite so ready to believe the health-realated concerns, but the interference problems that will result from an implementation of BPL are very real. I've seen a demonstration of BPL's interference at a local hamfest here in the Washington, DC area (For those interested, AMRAD will also be giving a presentation at the DC area Winterfest [viennawireless.org] hamfest in February). BPL makes a lot of noise on an HF receiver, across the entire tuning range! But what is potentially even worse is that a relatively small amount of power (I believe they gave the example of 10 watts into a dipole at reasonable proximity) is enough to cause a link to fail.

Undoubtedly, a ham radio operator's neighbors, and perhaps the power company, will put a lot of pressure on him to cease operating a ham radio. This is totally backwards! Let's revisit the Part 15 rules for a minute - the regulations that apply to unlicensed services, including BPL. It says that an unlicensed device MAY NOT cause harmful interference to a licensed service but an unlicensed device must accept any harmful interference received.

This basically means that the burden for resolving any interference problem is on the head of the unlicensed service, in this case, the power company - at least in theory. I have a hard time believing it will play out this way though. In fact, when the FCC asked for comments on a notice of inquiry with regards to relaxing part 15 standards, many power companies claimed that NO INTERFERENCE PROBLEM EXISTS, and it is up to other users to PROOVE it, before they should be required to act on it. This is a total reversal of the roles established by Part 15! And that is leaving aside the fact that there are several studies done by hams, including a very good one from AMRAD [fcc.gov], that do proove, both empiracally and mathematically, the interference threat. BPL promoters, including the heads at the FCC, have turned a blind eye.

HF radio is used to provide long-distance communications during disasters by many groups, including ham radio organizations, and FEMA. (FEMA has recently weighed in [fcc.gov] on the debate) It also carries shortwave broadcast from other countries, which would be sqaushed by interference.

It does not make sense that the FCC should allow an unlicensed user to render this huge chunk of spectrum totally useless to it's intended users. It's selfish and shortsighted.

Please write your congressperson. Make them aware of the problems BPL could bring.

Re:This isn't news...

[MechaStreisand]

You kinda sound like one of those people who oppose nuclear power because other kooks have told them that it'll give everyone cancer, when the facts tell us that it's one of the safest, cleanest power sources we have. The supposed "fact" that powerlines are known to cause cancer means nothing: burned toast is known to cause cancer. Cosmic rays are known to cause cancer. Does that mean we should fear them?

The only thing that matters here is the relative risk compared to other things, which you don't seem to give a fuck about. There's no sense in flying off the handle over imagined risks without evaluating exactly what those risks are and making an informed decision.

Re:Judge for yourself

[bgelb]

A properly set up station does not pose a health risk, even at 10 or 1000 watts of power. BPL is not a health risk, I'm not sure why the original poster added that in. BPL is, however, a very real interference problem.

Re:Laugh Test

[MarkusQ]

We use separate pipes for drinking water and sewage.

We use separate bags for produce and cleaning suplies.

We have separate tanks for fuel and coolant.

Who on earth thinks that sending power and data on the same lines is a Good Idea?

-- MarkusQ

Re:Just raining money over there...

[iabervon]

Wires are really cheap, compared with the cost of putting them somewhere they'll survive. It costs a huge amount of money to run a bundle of wires somewhere. But that splits into the huge cost of running a bundle of cables (including protecting them from the elements and such), and the small cost of the bundle of cables you're running. Broadband over power lines makes some sense if you already have a power cable coming to your house but don't have broadband; you can avoid running another bundle. But if you have to run a bundle, making it a big bundle isn't much more expensive than running a small bundle.

Re:3rd world?!?

[Nate B.]

As one who lives in a rural area, I won't my breath.

Anyone remotely familiar with technology should know by now that rollouts move from the population centers outward. The simple fact is that there is too much cost involved in BPL for it too start in rural areas.

If anyone seriously believes otherwise, then I have a bridge to sell you.

- Nate >>