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Books Media Book Reviews Science

Human Accomplishment 620

Joel Eidsath writes "Imagine that you found yourself in a position to write a resume for the whole human species. It is a metaphor that Charles Murray uses several times in his book, Human Accomplishment: The Pursuit of Excellence in the Arts and Sciences, 800 B.C. to 1950." Murray not only collects such examples in this book, but attempts to explain why and how they emerge. Murray obviously courts controversy with this book; expect reactions similar to the ones drawn by The Bell Curve, which he co-authored. (Do 97% of the world's significant scientists come from the West? Can personal eminence be objectively measured? Is "accomplishment" really amenable to description by charts and graphs?) Read on for Eidsath's review.
Human Accomplishment: The Pursuit of Excellence in the Arts and Sciences, 800 B.C. to 1950
author Charles Murray
pages 688
publisher HarperCollins
rating Thought-provoking
reviewer Joel Eidsath
ISBN 006019247X
summary A statistical history of human accomplishment.

For our species' resume, you probably would not list to put "Defeated Hitler" as one of humanity's accomplishments, because it sounds too much like 'Beat my Heroin Addiction.' You would want to include things like 'Painted the Roof of the Sistine Chapel' or 'Discovered General Relativity.' In other words, you would want to include examples of human excellence throughout the ages.

Not only has Murray set out to compile this resume, but he sought to do it for a reason that is at the same time both interesting and audacious: once you have compiled a list of the several thousand most important creators and discoverers of all time, you can stick it into a database. The idea is that with this database a person can spot trends in accomplishment; he can identify regions and cities where excellence has clustered; he can evaluate qualities of political systems that spur innovation and those that stifle it. Murray's book is a stunning profusion of graphs and plots that do much more to teach us about accomplishment that most narrative histories.

For this to work, however, Murray first had to tackle the problem of differing opinions on who exactly deserves a place in the database. Everybody's list would differ -- yours, mine, and Charles Murray's. There would be substantial similarities between our lists, to be sure; nobody is going to leave out Newton, Darwin, Goethe, Shakespeare, Confucius, or al-Mutanabbi. But when it comes to lesser achievements, the arguments would be endless. Does Hooke make it into the list of the top 20 physicists of all time, or does Pascal make it into the list of the top 10 mathematicians?

So what Murray has done is to split up accomplishment into a number of fields and tried to take a neutral measure of each person's respective 'eminence' in the field. He measures 'eminence' by taking a number of comprehensive sources on each field and counting the references to each person and how many paragraphs they get. The sources are from as many different languages as possible and Murray does a good job of avoiding the distorting effects of ethnocentrism. He uses sharp cutoff dates at 800 B.C. and 1950 A.D. to limit the data.

What Murray winds up with is a procedurally neutral measure of human accomplishment that is stable when new sources are added or taken away, and also has good face validity. In Medicine, for example, Pasteur is first with an index score of 100, Koch is third with 90 and Freud (for clinical descriptions of mental illnesses) is 18th with a score of 34.

The Lotka Curve

Murray's other major work made a certain kind of statistical curve a household word, and Human Accomplishment prepares a second candidate for improving public statistical awareness: the Lotka Curve. In the mid-1920s, Alfred Lotka noticed an interesting pattern in scientific journals. About 60% of people publish only one article for a journal. The number of people publishing more that this falls off very fast with the number of articles. This makes up a Lotka curve and is almost L shaped.

It turns out that in just about every field of human accomplishment significant figures fall along a Lotka curve. In Western literature, Shakespeare is far out along the horizontal part of the curve, Goethe a bit less so, and a whole host of lesser figures make up the nearly vertical part of the data set.

Dead White Males

Despite using several data collection techniques that wind up exaggerating the influence of non-Western cultures, Murray's data shows a strong majority of Westerners among the significant figures of world history.

Fully 97% of significant figures in the sciences come from the West. The same figure is arrived at from looking only at significant events. Even America is dwarfed by European accomplishment in the sciences, hosting less than 20% of significant figures before 1950 compared to Europe's nearly 80%. Europe's dominance over America is even greater in the arts. And though Murray makes sure to calculate what is an upper limit for artistic accomplishment in non-Western parts of the world, the graph is substantially the same as that for the sciences.

One of the astonishing parts of Murray's data is how it demonstrates the significant effects of legal equality. Jewish achievement after 1850 skyrocketed due to their newfound position before the law. Between 1910 and 1950, Jewish achievement tripled despite even the Third Reich and the Holocaust.

The graph of the achievement of woman displays a different pattern, despite their having gained substantial legal equality in the past century. Though there are slight increases in the numbers, women only represent a few percent of Murray's significant figures after 1900. Nor does the data available for the years beyond 1950 bear out any substantial increase in women's achievement during the second half of the twentieth century. Murray provides several possible explanations. Despite legal equality, women did not gain the same degree of immediate social equality that other groups did. Moreover, the substantially greater demands of parenthood upon women make achievement harder.

Decline

The last section of Human Accomplishment is somewhat surprising. When adjusted for population, Murray's numbers show a decline in accomplishment after 1800. When numbers are used that take not only total population in account, but also urban population and educated population, the decline has brought us down to nearly pre-Renaissance levels. For example, we have 65 playwrights alive today for every one in Elizabethan England. Yet do we have dozens of Shakespeares? The picture is even more stark when the 12,000 members of the screen Writers Guild are taken into account.

As a percentage, the number of significant figures in the sciences compared to the total population has dropped a great deal; this is despite a far greater percentage of working scientists and far more science and technical journals being published.

Murray goes through the data and shows why he believes that the decline is real and is not explicable by any procedural artifacts brought about by his methods. It is a somewhat disturbing conclusion to a great work.


You can purchase Human Accomplishment: The Pursuit of Excellence in the Arts and Sciences, 800 B.C. to 1950 from bn.com. Slashdot welcomes readers' book reviews -- to see your own review here, read the book review guidelines, then visit the submission page.

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Human Accomplishment

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  • by rsfpc ( 717694 ) on Thursday October 30, 2003 @12:36PM (#7348300) Homepage
    The numbers are without a doubt skewed. Come on... Saying 97 percent of the significant figures in sciences come from the west is like saying 90 percent of shark bite victims happen within 100 meters of the shoreline. Where did Murray receive his education? I suppose I'll have to read this book now. hmmmm, what to do this weekend, what to do...
  • Yeah, Right ... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 30, 2003 @12:36PM (#7348307)
    The first spin is the fact that he chose the cutoff dates he did. If you chose cutoff dates of 2000 bce - 800 bce and 200 ad - 1200 ad, you'd decide that 97% of scientists and artists were Chinese, Arab, or Persian, and that Europeans were the giggling idiots of the planet.

    The second spin is how he defines "significant."
  • 800 BCE? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Sebastopol ( 189276 ) on Thursday October 30, 2003 @12:37PM (#7348315) Homepage

    I would think the author would go back to at least 2,000 BCE or even 10,000 and identify the collosal leap made in farming. For a species to go from forraging to agrigulture seems like an enormous effort of overlapping memes (and luck).

    Can't wait to read the book.
  • ....this line:

    "Moreover, the substantially greater demands of parenthood upon women make achievement harder."

    The problem is that it's difficult to quantify the contribution of a stay-at-home Mom to her childrens' education, welfare, development, etc. It's very significant; it's just difficult to measure with numbers. "Achievement" means different things to different people.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 30, 2003 @12:38PM (#7348346)
    1. The west embraces the free marketplace of ideas more than others.

    2. Western dead white males write the history books that most of us read.
  • Comment removed (Score:3, Insightful)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Thursday October 30, 2003 @12:38PM (#7348348)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • Re:800 BCE? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by drinkypoo ( 153816 ) <drink@hyperlogos.org> on Thursday October 30, 2003 @12:44PM (#7348417) Homepage Journal
    I strongly suspect that the cutoff at 800 BCE is due in part to the quantity of data available. Such a thoughtful author would not choose the date arbitrarily or based on simply one factor; I would hope that in the book somewhere he will tell us why he picked that particular time to begin, but the quantity of available trustworthy data is always significant.
  • by Khomar ( 529552 ) on Thursday October 30, 2003 @12:44PM (#7348421) Journal

    Amen! This is one thing that has bothered me in today's society. It is assumed that because women do not make money or invent new technologies or lead successful companies that they are somehow inferior. The fact is that men and geared biologically and mentally to strive for what is commonly referred to as "achievement", but nearly every achievement can probably be traced back to the man's mother and her wise care and raising of him. Man affects the present. It is the teaching of the mother in the home that affects the future.

  • by Baron_Yam ( 643147 ) on Thursday October 30, 2003 @12:48PM (#7348471)

    The Universe is a big place. It's mostly empty. Does that mean matter is trivial?

    I'd suggest that matter is non-trivial, but in the minority when measured by volume occupied. I think we're like that; I think organized matter supporting intelligence is non-trivial, but is certainly in the minority when measured as a percentage of matter in the universe.

  • by DG ( 989 ) on Thursday October 30, 2003 @12:53PM (#7348529) Homepage Journal
    More to the point, given that his date range is 800 BCE to 1950 CE, and the Americas were colonies struggling to be self-sufficiant (with little time for art or science) up until about 1800 or so, that gives Europe a much larger time window.

    And then there's a classification problem related to the increase in global travel post 1900-ish. Is Einstein American, or European?

    As for the decline in achievement post 1800... that's probably because all the low-hanging fruit are gone. The remaining problems tend to be "hard" in some non-trivial sense.

    DG
  • Re:Not anymore (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 30, 2003 @12:56PM (#7348572)
    Too busy researching mouse genes to find a real girlfriend in any country.

    As a matter of fact, I am too busy building my career to look for a girlfriend (in any country).

    What's the problem with that? I just value my career higher than wasting my finite life looking for sex.

  • by sql*kitten ( 1359 ) * on Thursday October 30, 2003 @01:01PM (#7348637)
    Saying 97 percent of the significant figures in sciences come from the west is like saying 90 percent of shark bite victims happen within 100 meters of the shoreline

    Consider, for example, gunpowder. Invented in China, but they only ever used it for fireworks to amuse the aristocrats. In the West, sure it was used as a weapon, but it was also used in mining. Western lateral thinking meant that Western mines were more efficient, which accelerated all forms of technological development.

    Or mathematics is another example. Large amounts of it were invented by Arabs, but their religion doesn't permit advanced forms of banking, but when mathematics reached the West it was used for advanced finance, which permitted investment and insurance, which acclerated all forms of technological development.

    It's not politically correct to say so, but the West really is a superior culture when it comes to making practical use of theoretical discoveries. Or it was; in the last century the West has spent less of its resources on developing technology and more on supporting those who aren't able to support themselves. Simple natural selection now means that our populations are becoming geared towards those who consume handouts but produce no new discoveries.
  • by Chris Burke ( 6130 ) on Thursday October 30, 2003 @01:04PM (#7348667) Homepage
    was that blacks are inherently stupid, I'm not surprised that he comes to the conclusion in this book that Westerners do all the great work. Does George Washington Carver (presumeably an outlier on the Bell Curve) make the list?

    Are there a dozen Shakespeares? Maybe! How would you know? There are dozens of great playwrights in the world today, and dozens of authors, etc. Which are today's Shakespeare? Ask me in three hundred years when can see which authors are still talked about and studied in school. Was Shakespeare hailed as "the Homer of today" at the time? No!

    "Significant" figures in science are decreasing? Maybe it's because more science is being done by groups of scientists collaborating. If a dozen papers come out of one university research group, but each has a different author's name on the top, then is that less accomplishment than six papers with one author? I guess the accomplishments of groups of scientists working together isn't significant.

    Frankly, I think the absence of "significant" figures is a sign of progress. It shows that our scientific base is widening, so that contributions come from a greater number of individuals. Contrast for example Galileo, one of the only people doing astrological work at the time. Whereas now there are observatories around the world with thousands upon thousands of individuals studying the stars, each making their own contributions.

    This book sounds like crap, which I base half on the review and half on my opinion that the Bell Curve was crap. Knowing the way he covers his crap assumptions and the resulting crap conclusions with statistics and charts that seem reasonable at first, I'm seeing heavy potential for the same kind of thing here. Starting with taking whatever statistical feature he's actually looking at and calling it "Achievment", a mirror of taking scores from a military aptitude test and calling that "Intelligence".

    But he'll probably get a lot of book sales from people who want to hear about how white folk from the west are the producers of all human achievment.

  • by synergy3000 ( 637810 ) on Thursday October 30, 2003 @01:09PM (#7348738)
    Maybe the decline is a result of other factors external to the creative types. Like a Patent office, Copyrights, red tape for businesses, and a hugely burdensome legal system that can take the incentive out of creating something due to potential liability problems.
  • I spent several years living in Korea among the Koreans. I've studied their culture and personality up-close and personal.

    Ask a Korean where all the science development occured, and they will point to Europe. Ask them what they have done to further humanity's knowledge and they might mutter something about a great world vision and system called Confucianism, but not much else.

    It is true that recently (like in the past 50 years) Korea has experienced a rennaissance in that only now are their thinkers and artists truly free to express themselves. They understand that at this point, they are by no means pioneers. But soon their society will have "advanced" to a level that will be comparable with the European societies. They look to the West to find examples of great scientists, artists, political leaders (think American Revolution, Economic policy, etc...), in their effort to obtain the great wealth in all areas of life that we experience.

    They are even now adjusting their entire education system to become like the Greek /Roman / European system we inherited. It used to be, "Do as the teacher says, memorize, and repeat". Now it is becoming, "Question the teacher, and when the teacher can't answer your questions, turn to other sources, or discover the answer for yourself." This is going counter to almost 5,000 years of history in that region.

    The same holds true for Japan, China, and other Asian countries. It probably holds true for most of Africa, Australia, and even pre-1800's North and South America.

    They literally contributed very, very little to humanity while the West was changing the world every 50 years or so. This is not racism, or me being and egotistical white male American, this is solid fact.

    If you want to look at true human achievement, look at what the world is becoming. Only now do Asian, African, and other non-European begin to contribute to the arts and the sciences. Only now do you see advances in political and economical thought coming from there as well. This is all due to our natural sharing attitude, where we would rather teach and lift and bring others to our level than maintain our superiority with an iron fist. We understand that we are much more "wealthy" in true human achievemtn when we have two well-educated, intelligent people, than one well-educate and the other mis-educated.
  • Re:Yeah, Right ... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by pVoid ( 607584 ) on Thursday October 30, 2003 @01:12PM (#7348764)
    You may like them, but as the parent poster pointed out, it's because you look from a Westerner's point of view. Arabs are known to have had very advanced mathematical techniques very early on.

    I won't link to (and destroy) a particular site, but just check this [google.ca] google search out. Also, of great importance was the discovery of 0...

    Also, don't forget the great library of Alexandria, and also the Incas and Mayas.

    In the end, those cultures are lost, and maybe even their fruits are lost, but that doesn't mean they didn't exist. Who knows, maybe western civilisation as we know it is about to be extinguished in a hundred years to leave a world for eskimos to flourish in...

  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 30, 2003 @01:13PM (#7348780)
    The fact that you even needed to preface that with "It's not politically correct to say so" is the root of our problem. We put everything in terms of political correctness now (well 99% do, I dont). It's not PC to let a bum starve and die on the streets. It's not PC to give deserved preference to the more intelligent portion of the population. Its PC to elevate the idiots and lazy a$$'s to the average persons status thereby letting them reproduce and completely f()king over evolution and survival of the fittest.
  • Scientific Method (Score:3, Insightful)

    by bstadil ( 7110 ) on Thursday October 30, 2003 @01:18PM (#7348864) Homepage
    On a more serious note the invention of the Scientific method by Francis Beacon el al is the real cause of the dominance.

    The whole concept of progress, not just looking back to a Golden Age coupled with a purpose of study of the Natural Sciences as it was called.

    The Purpose was still framed in Christian ethics of Charity ie Betterment of the life of fellow human beings, but this was enough to "shovel off this religious coil" that has keept man's progress down.

    The problem with the rest of the world is that the Coil is still there.

  • by October_30th ( 531777 ) on Thursday October 30, 2003 @01:19PM (#7348871) Homepage Journal
    Its PC to elevate the idiots and lazy a$$'s to the average persons status thereby letting them reproduce and completely f()king over evolution and survival of the fittest.

    Giving these PEOPLE a chance is moral and morality is something that makes us human and not just animals.

    It's rather sad that you think that the humankind should conform to the "evolution and survival of the fittest". We're well beyond that with all the advances in medicine and the invention of laws. Once we master space colonization and genetical manipulation we'll finally be able to take full control over our own destiny. Survival of the fittest is a relic: evolution crawls towards imperfection.

  • by David Leppik ( 158017 ) on Thursday October 30, 2003 @01:20PM (#7348885) Homepage
    For example, we have 65 playwrights alive today for every one in Elizabethan England. Yet do we have dozens of Shakespeares? The picture is even more stark when the 12,000 members of the screen Writers Guild are taken into account.


    Simple reason: increased competition leads to decreased fame. If you have dozens of Shakespeares, no single one of them is going to be as famous as if you have just one. Since the measure of success is necessarily some form of popularity contest, you cannot fairly compare Shakespeare's talent to modern talent. It's like saying Perrier is better than tap water when you tasted the former at noon on a hot day in Death Valley and the latter on a cold and rainy October day in Minnesota.



    Nor can you say "I saw a Shakespeare play today and a Tom Stoppard play yesterday, and X is better." We have a culture that primes you for Shakespeare starting before Kindergarden, with all of those "Romeo and Juliet" references, among other things. Stoppard, on the other hand, writes for a post-Shakespeare audience, and builds on Shakespeare. You can't isolate one from the other, nor either from its environment.

  • by back_pages ( 600753 ) <back_pagesNO@SPAMcox.net> on Thursday October 30, 2003 @01:23PM (#7348930) Journal
    Yet the rise of Islam between 700-1200 in the common era was spread by the capitalist and free market practices of the predominantly urban members of the new faith. While Europe was struggling through the dark ages, Muslims were responsible for combining the Hindu concept of zero with more commonplace numeral systems to produce place-value and the easily recognizable 0-9 Arabic numbers which we use worldwide 1000 years later. A Muslim from this era define algorithms and algebra. Arabs in this era translated the ancient Greek works and snatched them from the very brink of obscurity; without those translations the West would very likely have no idea who any Greek philosophers were, or more importantly, what they said and accomplished.

    I too find it peculiar that the author says 97% of anybody comes from the West. I would tend to place a far higher importance on the people who gave the world the foundations of modern science and slightly less importance on the people who explored those tools further. Surely there's a Jewish physicist or two who turned the universe on its ear, but to lump all these medieval Muslim scientists - many of whom had just as much impact (in context) as Einstein - into less than 3% makes me skeptical.

    (Not that these Muslims were world famous or well received for their contributions, but place-value number systems and algebra were just as phenomenally world-shattering in the year 1000 as the theory of relativity in 2000.)

  • by elwinc ( 663074 ) on Thursday October 30, 2003 @01:24PM (#7348936)
    Hah! According to the review,
    So what Murray has done is to split up accomplishment into a number of fields and tried to take a neutral measure of each person's respective 'eminence' in the field. He measures 'eminence' by taking a number of comprehensive sources on each field and counting the references to each person and how many paragraphs they get. The sources are from as many different languages as possible and Murray does a good job of avoiding the distorting effects of ethnocentrism. He uses sharp cutoff dates at 800 B.C. and 1950 A.D. to limit the data.
    Are these "comprehensive sources on each field" written in russian or arabic or chinese or sanskrit or swahili?

    I don't think so! I'll bet the great majority of sources are english and the rest are western european. Guess what? People tend to reference works written in their own native language! This is bias up the wazoo! So much for a neutral measure!

    I've only spent about 5 minutes thinking about it, but a slightly less biased (but not neutral) measure would involve counting works translated into multiple languages. The idea being that if a work is worth the effort of importing from another language/culture, then it's more significant than an untranslated work.

    The fact that Murray could build this obvious fundamental bias into his metric is laughable. Then to proceed blithely with the whole book pretending his metric is neutral is just absurd. A whole book about measuring science, and it's based on a warped ruler!

    Truly, Schiller was right: against stupidity, the gods themselves contend in vain.

  • by benzapp ( 464105 ) on Thursday October 30, 2003 @01:25PM (#7348959)
    yet the idea of free market is quite young. Adam Smith published Wealth of Nation in 1776. How do you explain all the innovations during the reneissance when merchantilism ruled? Or perhaps during the height of Greeks?

    Thats easy.

    Capitalism and Communism both fail because they measure value in materialistic terms only. When a society is directed by dedicated leaders, value is imposed. Florence doesn't have such beautiful architecture because the free market encouraged it, but because the leaders of the city demanded it. To a capitalist and a communist, ornate architecture is inherently inefficient and serves no real purpose. It isn't necessary for survival, but it feeds the soul. This cannot be quantified by a capitalist accountant, or a banker, or a communist bureaucrat. It is outside their realm of understanding.

    When you realize this, it makes perfect sense that culture is destroyed by capitalism and communism.
  • by Talisman ( 39902 ) on Thursday October 30, 2003 @01:28PM (#7349016) Homepage
    "...since the conclusion of his last book was that blacks are inherently stupid..."

    That's not what he concluded, now was it. The conclusion of The Bell Curve was that you can find IQ trends amongst races, and if you recall correctly, Asians had the highest rate of geniuses. Murray is White, so where is his bias?

    He stated you will find geniuses in ALL races, but you will find higher proportions in certain races.

    Just because GWC was a genius does not mean every other Black person will be or can be.

    I always find it astounding how people will readily admit that certain breeds of dogs have undeniable traits (Jack Russel Terriers are smart, Bloodhounds have highly sensitive noses, etc.) but then look at humans and refuse to admit any bio-level distinctions might be there. I guess that's why 75+% of the NBA is Black - because Asians and Whites are every bit as athletic, right?

    If you ask the question, "Are there really differences between races?" and eliminate "Yes" as a possible answer, you aren't being intellectually honest.

    Talisman
  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 30, 2003 @01:30PM (#7349040)
    If you were born with 10 fingers, 10 toes and a proper set of limbs then you have all the chance you need. We shouldn't be handing out money to perfectly capable drunks on the street just because some democrat felt sorry for them and decided to create the welfare system.

    As to "Survival of the fittest is a relic: evolution crawls towards imperfection." The very definition of evolution is the opposite of a "crawl towards imperfection". The "imperfections" are what cause the inferior of the species to die off while the more perfect survive. A crawl towards imperfection is exactly what we are on by giving these people a chance over and over. The only thing we give them a chance to do is fuck, therefore fucking evolution when their imperfection is passed on to another future welfare recipient.
  • by TKinias ( 455818 ) on Thursday October 30, 2003 @01:39PM (#7349156)

    scripsit benzapp:

    Capitalism and Communism both fail because they measure value in materialistic terms only. ... When you realize this, it makes perfect sense that culture is destroyed by capitalism and communism.

    I don't know if you realize this, but you just about quoted Mussolini there. This is exactly the Fascist critique of socialism and liberal democracy -- they are solely materialistic and therefore soulless.

    This is not a flame, by the way -- I in no way am suggesting you would agree with any other fascist ideas.

    Out of curiosity, what would your `third path' be? How would your antimaterialist order work? Is it simply traditional conservatism (of the throne-and-altar type), or something different?

  • by 2TecTom ( 311314 ) on Thursday October 30, 2003 @01:49PM (#7349284) Homepage Journal
    Sure, it's true, there are racial differences, but where many people err is not by assuming that there are differences between races, but rather, they assume that someone can ascribe either a particular race or it's associated characteristics to any particular individual. In fact, any such generalization is indicative of scientific fundamentalism.
  • Nonsense (Score:4, Insightful)

    by duffbeer703 ( 177751 ) on Thursday October 30, 2003 @01:52PM (#7349329)
    The Bell Curve (the book not the concept) has pretty much been completely discredited.

    I imagine that this book will be as well. Measuring "achievement" is easy to skew since it is a moving target that you can define to suit your opinion.

    If you asked a Chinese scholar a couple of hundred years ago about the meaning of achievement, he would probaly stress cultural and social stability.

    If you asked a Sioux in 1750, he'd probaly describe a great buffalo hunt.

    Mr. Murray has undoubtably done a great job describing how citizens of Western societies have done a great job of advancing western civilization.

    What a revelation! Maybe in his next book he'll statistically analyze swimming and discover that fish are the best swimmers!
  • by Chris Burke ( 6130 ) on Thursday October 30, 2003 @01:57PM (#7349394) Homepage
    That's not what he concluded, now was it.

    It was that as a race blacks have lower average intelligence and a much lower chance of producing a geniuses. The Bell Curve for blacks is shifted to the left. So yes, that is pretty much what he concluded: blacks are dumber than other races.

    Just because GWC was a genius does not mean every other Black person will be or can be.

    What's your point? That applies to everyone. I wasn't saying GWC proves all blacks are geniuses, I was questioning whether Carver was considered "significant" by Murray.

    The conclusion of The Bell Curve was that you can find IQ trends amongst races, and if you recall correctly, Asians had the highest rate of geniuses. Murray is White, so where is his bias?

    What, because he didn't put Whites at the top of the I.Q. Totem Pole that means he didn't have a bias? That's ridiculous. Particularly if his "bias" was against certain races less than for others. And "Asians are smart" is simply the parallel stereotype to "Blacks are dumb". Neither one was a new idea to the crowd the Bell Curve was written for, he was just providing them "proof".

    I always find it astounding how people will readily admit that certain breeds of dogs have undeniable traits (Jack Russel Terriers are smart, Bloodhounds have highly sensitive noses, etc.) but then look at humans and refuse to admit any bio-level distinctions might be there.

    I'm not denying the possibility of differences between races -- there are, obviously. I'm denying that his book was anything but overhyped shit designed to appeal to what rich white fucks already thought with sloppy science.

    I guess that's why 75+% of the NBA is Black - because Asians and Whites are every bit as athletic, right?

    I guess that's why 90+% of the NFL is White - because Asians and Blacks are every bit as athletic, right?

    But that's the Bell Curve way, isn't it? Find the metric that tells you what you want to hear, then use that and ignore all other factors.

    If you ask the question, "Are there really differences between races?" and eliminate "Yes" as a possible answer, you aren't being intellectually honest.

    True. But if you cherry pick your data and measuring methods (one military aptitude test that was never even intended to measure "intelligence", number of paper references, percentage of one race playing a particular sport) to get the answer you have already assumed is true, then that's intellectually dishonest as well.
  • by BorgCopyeditor ( 590345 ) on Thursday October 30, 2003 @02:13PM (#7349606)
    We're the 2-3 billion people who have adopted Western Civilization. We're here, we're better than you, and we're not going away.

    Congratulations on having adopted Western Civilization. You showed great discernment in having been born into it. Very shrewd, indeed. I suppose that's why you're entitled to call yourself better than people stupid enough to be born in the Third World.

    Asshat.

  • by SeattleGameboy ( 641456 ) on Thursday October 30, 2003 @02:20PM (#7349698) Journal
    As a Korean-American, I find your condenscending, ignorant view of Koreans to be offensive.

    Koreans were the first to develop printing blocks, water clocks, submarines, etc. Not to mentions the most scientific and graceful written languauge in the world - Hangul.

    Koreans are very proud of their scientific and artistic achievements. And you if actually spent ANY time learning about their 4000 years of culture and achievements, then you wouldn't be spewing your little ignorant diatribe.

    Koreans are adopting to some (NOT ALL) western culture and methods because that makes them competitive in the modern economic world. And if you really want to nitpick, they are modeling themselves after Japan more than any other western country (yes, Japan modeled much from US, but I would argue they have improved much upon the original).

    What a nimcompoop...
  • by Sgt York ( 591446 ) <jvolm@earthlin[ ]et ['k.n' in gap]> on Thursday October 30, 2003 @02:35PM (#7349888)
    It's not really. What he is looking for is what conditions promote these accomplishments, not what culture produces the smartest or most capable people. Europe was stable and relatively wealthy through a large part the time period examined. Stability and money make for leisure time which gives rise to these kinds of accomplishments.

    It is very much like the shark bite statistic: If you want to avoid shark bites, stay out of that 100m region of the the water, that's where they happen. Of course, he's gone a step further than the shark analogy and done this on a per capita basis. To go back to the analogy, it may be that more people are bit within 100m of the shoreline, but this number of attacks represents a very small percentage of the people that were in that region of water (like places where the Latka rate is lower). If you go further out, a smaller number, but a greater percentage, are bit (Latka rate is higher). The data is much more useful now. Going back to the book, on a per capita basis, if you want to engage in these types of accomplishments (i.e., falling on the Latka curve beyond a certain point), your odds are better in the West. This is NOT because westerners are inherently better or smarter. It may be a factor of western culture that promotes these things (Stability, wealth).

    I do however have a problem with another portion of his measurements. Using a Latka curve, he will give a high score to people who have been around longer. There have been more books written since Aristotle was alive than there have been since Einstein was alive. Therefore, Aristotle would be more heavily represented in the literature, even though his rate/unit time may be lower due to his huge head start (think the tortise & the hare).

  • by cquark ( 246669 ) on Thursday October 30, 2003 @02:42PM (#7349971)
    My gripe is that I have to work 146 out of the 365 days per year to support people who are too lazy or too stupid to support themselves.

    The thing is that you don't. Nowhere near 30% (approximately 146 out of 365) of your income goes to support people who can't support themselves. Even if you're paying 60% of your income in taxes, which is unlikely, that would assume that half of the taxes you pay go to support such people which simply isn't true. About that much actually is going to "defense," so you could gripe about that wasted money if you're so included though.
  • by i_should_be_working ( 720372 ) on Thursday October 30, 2003 @02:44PM (#7349989)
    If you want to look at true human achievement, look at what the world is becoming. Only now do Asian, African, and other non-European begin to contribute to the arts and the sciences. Only now do you see advances in political and economical thought coming from there as well. This is all due to our natural sharing attitude, where we would rather teach and lift and bring others to our level than maintain our superiority with an iron fist.

    Teach and uplift and bring others to our level? This is certainly not what Europe was doing between the 1500s and 50 years ago. Granted, scientific achievement in the west is superior in my possibly biased opinion. But as for the rest of the world, well it's hard to do research when you're struggling under colonialism. The book review mentions that certain demographics acheived much more when legal equality was gained. A large portion of the world didn't gain legal equality Until the latter half of the 20th century. Thus "Only now do Asian, African, and other non-European begin to contribute to the arts and the sciences"
  • by crazyphilman ( 609923 ) on Thursday October 30, 2003 @03:06PM (#7350284) Journal
    Another interesting thing is, why cut it off at 1950, the point at which American technology really took off? It would seem that Murray suffers from the same Europhilia plagueing high society. Perhaps this book was written like an undergraduate paper: decide what you want to prove, then prove it, choosing your sources to back up your thesis.

    Think about it: Murray, who wants to see Europe as the center of civilization, would practically HAVE to cut off at 1950. Accepting later data would show that the Americans, Chinese and Japanese have basically eaten Europe's lunch as far as high technology goes, which would undermine the whole worldview his book is trying to support. So, he picks a convenient cut-off point and ignores the most significant fifty years in world history.

    Maybe he didn't think we'd notice?

  • by GuyZero ( 303599 ) on Thursday October 30, 2003 @03:30PM (#7350646)

    It's not politically correct to say so, but the West really is a superior culture when it comes to making practical use of theoretical discoveries.

    Check out Guns, Germs & Steel [wwnorton.com] which will go a pretty long way to refuting your argument.

    Diamond's thesis, in a nutshell, is that there are no better societies, just better geographic locations and various wierd outcomes that derive from these lucky locations.

    IMO it deserves more than a Pulitzer - it deserves to be legally mandated required reading.

  • by sql*kitten ( 1359 ) * on Thursday October 30, 2003 @03:37PM (#7350750)
    But what have they done for humanity lately?

    It's worse than you suggest. You see, not only is modern Islamic civilization vastly inferior to the West, it is even inferior to ancient Islamic civilization.
  • by jwsd ( 718491 ) on Thursday October 30, 2003 @03:43PM (#7350826)
    As an Chinese living in the Western Culture for the past 10 years. I can testify that there are major differences between the two cultures. But I'm not convinced that Western culture is inherently better. In fact, I argue that the Western culture was able to take full advantage of science and technology because their societies evolved slower than the Chinese society. It is a well known fact in China that one of the major reasons China lagged behind Western societies in terms of science and technology in the past 300 years because the brightest people in the society were only encouraged to become managers of the country for the past 2000 years. Engineers were considered managers' tools and were looked down upon. Chronic lack of talented scientists and engineers eventually made China pay the price of defeat and humiliation in the hands of Western powers. What I have observed in America is that engineers are tools of upper management, especially in big corporations. It is human nature to pursue the best position within your society even though in the long run the society will fail. Everyday in America, corporate politicians back-stab each other to fight for their next promotions until the company fall apart under external pressure. Because China has been highly institutionized for a long period of time, the entire Chinese society have developed a culture of only pursuing management career track and avoiding engineer career track at all cost. Can you say this is not happenning in America right now? America has only achieved world dominance in the past 100 years. To dominate the world, America has to remain a big institution as a country just like China did since 2000 years ago. In the long run, the smartest Americans will learn to avoid science and engineer career tracks and pursue corporate executives and governments officials positions just like Chinese did for thousands of years. So the only reason the Western culture is ahead of other cultures in science and technology is that it was much less organized until recently. And this culture will evolve into the Chinese culture as the American government maintains its world's most powerful institution status in the future. FYI, ever since the Chinese were defeated by Western advanced technologies, its culture had made a 180 degree turn. Today all smart people are encouraged to pursue engineering degrees. Actually most top Chinese officials today graduated from engineering schools.
  • by peachpuff ( 638856 ) on Thursday October 30, 2003 @03:48PM (#7350887)
    "The conclusion of The Bell Curve was that you can find IQ trends amongst races, and if you recall correctly, Asians had the highest rate of geniuses. Murray is White, so where is his bias?"

    Pandering to stereotytpes in order to sell books.

    "I always find it astounding how people will readily admit that certain breeds of dogs have undeniable traits (Jack Russel Terriers are smart, Bloodhounds have highly sensitive noses, etc.) but then look at humans and refuse to admit any bio-level distinctions might be there."

    Compare the average size of a Great Dane to the average size of a chihuahua. Compare the jaw strength of a pit bull with that of a terrier. The physical differences among dog breeds are way beyond anything in humans. By the way, what gives poodles their distinctive hair? What makes Dobermans so vicious?

    Dog analogies are crap, especially analogies between a dog's physical features and a person's mental ability. I don't know of any esteemed scientists who are dogs.

    "I guess that's why 75+% of the NBA is Black - because Asians and Whites are every bit as athletic, right?"

    Maybe blacks are more likely to be brought up believing that their only chance is to shoot for the moon in sports. Maybe whites and asians are more likely to pursue success in other fields because they're more likely to believe that their education gives them a chance.

    "If you ask the question, 'Are there really differences between races?' and eliminate 'Yes' as a possible answer, you aren't being intellectually honest."

    If you assume that the obvious differences are both genetic and significant, based on crap analogies and examples taken out of context, you aren't being intellectually honest.

  • by Brandybuck ( 704397 ) on Thursday October 30, 2003 @05:08PM (#7351692) Homepage Journal
    It's not racism, because you can point to significant periods in European history where achievement was nil. I'm talking about achievement, and not influence.

    Non-mediterranean Europe prior to the Roman conquest had few achievements. Europe under feudalism had few achievements. But a cultural shift happened that caused an explosion of scientific, technological, and philosophical achievements. The spark for this probably came from the Middle East with some leavenings from Asia.

    Race had nothing to do with it, cultural attitudes did. During most of Chinese civilization, Europe was a barbarian backwater. Instead of pointing fingers at corporate global expansionists, which has nothing much to do with achievement, it would be better to discover which cultural attitudes lead to more scientific, economic, philosophical and literary achievements. Why did Europe never get a Confucious? Why did Korea never get a Newton? Those answers would be highly instructive.
  • by Mr. Slippery ( 47854 ) <tms&infamous,net> on Thursday October 30, 2003 @06:33PM (#7352652) Homepage
    Or it was; in the last century the West has spent less of its resources on developing technology and more on supporting those who aren't able to support themselves.

    Nonsense. First, the "dole" is an ancient invention; second, while public welfare programs have somewhat increased, private ones have shrunk enormously, so overall there has not been a redirection of resources towards supporting the poor; third, the amount of public funds spent on aid to the poor is very small - spending on education, training, employment, and social services makes up less than 4% of federal spending [gpo.gov]. (Every time you hear someone arguing about how expensive welfare programs are because of the huge amount of spending on "entitlements", that's because they lump Social Security (federally funded pension) in there - hardly honest accounting.)

"When the going gets tough, the tough get empirical." -- Jon Carroll

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