China Joins EU in Galileo Satellite Venture 376
CHaN_316 writes "Yahoo has posted a story that says China to Participate in Galileo Satellite Program. 'The agreement provides for cooperation in satellite navigation, technology, industrial manufacturing, market development, frequency and certification'. This is definitely a good boost to the satellite program since it injects fresh cash into the project. There are probably strategic reasons for joining this network since it's an alternative to the American controlled GPS system. Here's more information about Galileo." China is also moving quickly toward getting a man in space.
Good or bad (Score:3, Insightful)
Oh the other hand, it's this competition that usually drives progress. So far, the one for all and all for one model (soviets) seems to have failed while the super-capitalistic model (america) seems to be winning, but looking back 1000 years from now, is this the model that will perpetuate our presence in the universe?
US vs. Them (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, it isn't totally an anti-US measure. We just don't like the idea of a system on which our lives increasingly depend being under the control of a foreign military. Doesn't really matter who that military is; any system where you can find yourself suddenly lost at the whim of some general half a world away is a system to be avoided. And as the Iraq war is showing, the US is increasingly cagey (cagy? How do you spell that damn word?) about others using its system in time of war. And that time of war looks like it's going to extend indefinitely.
<anti-US bit>
Of course, the advent of Chinese involvement is, I hope a sign of things to come. Kyoto and others have shown that disaster doesn't necessarily follow when the US says 'no', and that the best attitude the world can have may well be "fuck 'em, and carry on regardless".
I'd love to see one big happy world, but in its absence I'm reasonably satisfied with one big, happy world-except-America.
</anti-US>
let the flames begin...
Short memory? (Score:1, Insightful)
Also observe that innovation in space exploration has been pretty much nil since, say, Apollo-Soyuz.
Re:Leave the flags out of it (Score:2, Insightful)
That was the goal of the ISS. It's tens of billions of dollars over budget, other nations have not gotten their modules finished or demanded cash from the US (Russia has done this for example in the past) and is basically a huge boondoggle. International cooperation on space exploration doesn't work. It's better to make it into a race.
Re:Does the EU/China really think... (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Galileo on BBC.. (Score:5, Insightful)
The answer is that this question is obsolete. Next Generation Positioning Systems will be able to get information out from GPS, from Galileo and maybe from LORAN-C or the local GSM-cellphone cell information as a fallback.
I consider redundancy as a mayor pro argument even in the eyes of American companies and
Re:Leave the flags out of it (Score:3, Insightful)
Just like France trusted Germany? Just before Germany walked into France? (WWII)
Just like the USSR trusted Germany? Just before they walked into Poland? (WWII)
Shall I go on?
Ignorance is thinking everyone should get along. More ignorance is spouted by saying dumb shit like "other nations [rightly so] distrust the U.S.".
You obviously have not learned from history... as you seem doomed to repeat it.
Remember, the U.S. will allow the Chinese to "join" with us in our space ventures when they stop oppressing their own people for both political and religion reasons... and stop oppressing the free, democratic people of Taiwan by letting them have their own seat at the U.N.
Re:Cooperation isn't always positive... (Score:3, Insightful)
I really think that a second global civilian navigation satellite system created by a lot of European nation and "anti-freedom communists" is a lot better than a single one that is controlled by the constantly warring military of a single "anti-freedom imperialist" nation.
Re:US vs. Them (Score:3, Insightful)
So did the Tibetans.
Re:Does the EU/China really think... (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Does the EU/China really think... (Score:2, Insightful)
Oh what, you thought you were the only ones with nuclear capability? Ooops!
Re:US vs. Them (Score:3, Insightful)
As a USAian who lives, works and studies overseas, I am someone who knows that 1. "furriners" are actually reflective caring people and 2. esp. Europeans, they are sick of war and, gosh almighty, have learned from mistakes. I can tell you that it is my sincere hope that a second way develops, but don't give up hope on us. The US is an extremely polarized country right now. There are people in my office (I am back living in the States) that are downright primed to kill everything they see, willingly, simply because the refuse to say "Wait a minute."
The 'left' in America (I don't think there really has ever been such a thing) is, it appears, getting its shit together and finally realizing that ideology must give way to pragmatism. Otherwise, you get totalitarian monsters like Rove, Rumsfeld, Cheney and Wolfowitz at the helm. Anyone with half-an-unindoctrinated brain knew the fix was in when Bush was elected.....
Still, Galileo is going to be a cool alternative if only for comparative purposes. I understand that the designer got the bands on either side of GPS from ICU and that DOD can't scramble Galileo with out stomping its own encrypted channels. Heh.
Re:Some 'Allies'... (Score:3, Insightful)
It's not as if France where jamming US tanks during actual combat and endangering lives or equipment. Granted it's a skeezy, and probably illegal, thing to do during contract bidding. But the US is way ahead of most of the rest of the world in that game.
Furthermore the article does not indicate whether or not the French tanks would have been susceptible to the same technique. If not it's a totally valid variable in the test. If you can do this with 1 foot transmitters it's likely something that real enemies would use. Except they'd back it up with anti-tank missiles.
And, since it happened during peace time, the DOD now has the opportunity to come up with a workaround for this problem so it won't effect them during actual combat.
But stick to the topic at hand. How is the EU's decision to build it's own positioning system un-ally like behavior?
Re:Does the EU/China really think... (Score:2, Insightful)
Stop US military ambitions (Score:3, Insightful)
As it is now EU is not capable to begin any serious wars. Not from military capability prospective - such decision would be politically impossible in EU. China is also not that stupid to through nuclear warheads here and there - they realize that that would be the end for all of us.
The problem is that US administration is driven by corporations, currently by those who is benefiting from any military race. And there is no way to stop them.
Re:Leave the flags out of it (Score:2, Insightful)
Uh huh. What about the US's trade ventures? China's appalling HR record doesn't seem particularly relevant to those. I suppose one must keep things in petrspective, though. I mean, we can't let HR get in the way of the real money-makers.
Re:Leave the flags out of it (Score:2, Insightful)
On the plains of geopolitics everybody's an asshole. The sooner you learn that, the better.
Re:Taiwan and a UN seat. (Score:3, Insightful)
And an invasion the next.
Re:Cooperation isn't always positive... (Score:3, Insightful)
And your point is? Like the same can't be said for any other participating nation, least of all the United States?
Re:US vs. Them (Score:2, Insightful)
LORAN, ATC radar, Radio Beacons, Air Defence is all capable of being turned off by a local government. Remeber what happened over Georgia when that SAM took it down, which is much more likely to happen than Space Command turning off GPS.
Since GPS got into the hands of civilians and commercial users, there have been major NATO/US wars in Serbia-Kosovo, Iraq (twice), Afghanistan, and terror attacks on the US which may have been agumented by GPS, in addition man portable SAM attacks on an airline and against US military aircraft.
How many times has the DoD/Space Command degraded GPS capabilities world-wide or in highly populated regions like Western Europe, China, Eastern Europe, Russia, SE Asia?
Never.
So you want the EU to spend billions of dollars on a redundant system to augment a system which is going to be backed up by a military only navigation system, because the first navigation system *might* be degraded during a war, even though there have been multiple conflicts in multiple theatres of operation and it's not been degraded ever?
Re:Leave the flags out of it (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Leave the flags out of it (Score:3, Insightful)
Other nations do distrust the US for a variety of reasons, some valid others less so - this is not to say all nations on all subjects, but it's silly to assume that there is no area where the US has never upse anyone.
U.S. citizens should realize that saying the US has a right to do whatever it wants is not compatible with saying other nations have no right to distrust the US - or to do things in their self-interest.
You may allow the Chinese to "join" you if you wish, just don't expect them not to develop their own space program.
As it happens I distrust the Chinese Government and am generally sympathetic to the US - but not blndly so and US actions over the last 5 or so years have made it harder. I am glad that Chane and the EU are collaborating on this - it tends to be less likely that there is serious conflict between real trading partners, and it will give an alternative to GPS, which is under foreign control. If the exisitng system was Gallileo would the US be happy to have this as a hostage to fortune or want their own version?
I agree about Taiwan.
Re:Cooperation isn't always positive... (Score:2, Insightful)
Yeah, that's right. I can think of LOTS of neighboring ethnic groups that have been cooperating forever who live in peace & love:
Jews/Arabs
Chinese/Koreans
Chinese/Vietn
Bavarians/Austrians
etc.
What's the bet that this "insight" on cooperation comes from someone on a continent of people who
a) pretty much hate each other
b) speak at least a dozen different languages
c) can't agree on a single unit of currency
d) has been the home to countless internecine, ethnic, and/or religious wars in the previous 1000 years.
LOL
Re:US vs. Them (Score:1, Insightful)
It's be extremely foolish to assume that existing, good, relationships will remain like that forever. History has shown that it *is* possible for democracies to turn into pseudo or real dictatorships.
Re:Cooperation isn't always positive... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Cooperation isn't always positive... (Score:5, Insightful)
This statement is equally true: "The USA's interests are not the world's interests."
As for the rest...
I suggest you talk to some people who have actually lived in the People's Republic of China (PRC) recently. The Chinese government's lumbering inefficiency isn't limited to industry, it extends into the realms of censorship and informational control as well. The so called "iron fist" is a rusted piece of scrap metal.
The "Great Firewall" is utterly worthless. The Chinese people can get access to any news article or information on any website they want.
If you think the media controls implemented by the Chinese government can prevent the people from finding out what's going on, you're sorely mistaken. Everyone in China knows the media is censored. They know the press is unreliable and full of propaganda (unlike in the good old USA, where most people don't realize the amount of self-censorship practiced by the media). News travels by word of mouth, on internet bulletin boards and chatrooms, and via physical bulletin boards at universities and colleges.
And if you think the PRC is still Communist, you need to go back to school. Last time I checked, Communism didn't include private ownership of land and industry, entrepreneurialism, corporations, or a free market. The last vestiges of nationalized industry in China are being privatized as we post.
China is changing, but it is changing slowly. The current government survives on ignorance. As more of the population becomes educated, democracy will assert itself. I think most Americans would be surprised by how much the Chinese government is already influenced by the will of the people.
Re:Leave the flags out of it (Score:3, Insightful)
Clinton, being the type of liberal I originally responded to, ya know, the kind that say, "oh everyone should get along... la la la everything is so wonderful" while collecting his campaign contributions from Chinese military officials, had no problem easing trade with China in exchange for that cash.
Re:Does the EU/China really think... (Score:3, Insightful)
You obviously learned most of what you know about America from watching Entertainment Tonight.
"And do you think that living in America would actually be worth while after all that?"
Amazingly most people in the non-industrialized nations still seem to think their life worth living. Despite what you may think from watching movies and TV, an awfully lot of people in the "heartland" of America are motivated by things other than buying the new Prada fashions, seeing the latest Broadway plays, and getting in to the newest nightclubs. Amazingly plenty of us still believe in our founder's little experiment and would work to keep it going and pass it on to the next generation. As difficult as the job might seem and as bad as the conditions, I suspect it would still be easier going than some of our ancestors had it. Considering the productivity of American agriculture, we would almost certainly not starve (especially with the larger cities targeted). And even with a substantially damaged military, we would still be hard to conquer (one of the benefits of a gun culture and physical separation from our enemies).
I don't think the biggest danger to the Republic would be mass exoduses or suicides from people who felt that it was no longer worth trying. I think it would be that members of the post-attack government might be tempted to permanently expand their authority (like an extreme version of the centralized planning in Briton that was continued after World War 2 was over). Fortunately I would like to think that the 2nd amendment would do its job and deter any extreme power grabs by military or civilian leaders, while small disturbances to the balance of power between our levels and branches of gov't (and the citizens themselves) can be, and regularly are, endured or corrected by more conventional political means.
Re:Short sighted (Score:3, Insightful)
You yourself say that any alternative to GPS is a major threat to the US. If that is the case, then NOT having an alternative to GPS is a major threat for everyone else.
Face it, most of the world is worried about lunatics like Bush being in charge of a war machine that is yearly being funded as much as the next 25 countries, especially given the long range of wars, invasions and coups the US has started, staged or supported over the last few decades - including several actions in clear violation of international law (at least one of which the US was convicted of - mining harbours that had civilian traffic in Nicaragua), and several that involved the overthrow of democratically elected governments (Chile and Indonesia to name two).
If people worldwide are being threatened, I for one support any measure that will make it easier for people to defend themselves against US aggression.
Re:Leave the flags out of it (Score:4, Insightful)
You are a liar. It was Nixon, a Republican, who began trading with China. Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton and Bush have all renewed China's MFN status.
Re:Short sighted (Score:5, Insightful)
This is such a laughable assertion that I could write a book discrediting it. American has spent 100 years threatening and enacting diplomatic economic and military warfare against those who threaten its private interests. It is not unique in that of course, we British did the same for the past 200 years when our empire was the pre-eminent one. The US is now the pre-eminent empire and it bullies those countries who offer a challenge to its authority. Such attacks are of course justified as necessary to defend 'freedom, democracy and international order', as it defines it.
Non-one is fooled for a moment - well, ok, you are apparently.
However, two brief and far from unique examples suffice to prove you wrong:
1.the Bush 'Hague Invasion Act'. If a US soldier commits a war crime and the Hague International Criminal Court convict and imprisons him the US will attack the Hague. The Hague for your information is a part of Europe (old Europe of course).
2. After the Second World War (c. 1946) the US threatened Italians that if they voted into power the communists they would attack them with the residue of their WW2 forces in the rest of Europe in order to overthrow them. Naturally this was to 'defend freedom'; poor simple Italian peasants didnt know what was best for them so you threatened to invade to persuade them to do the 'right' thing; which just coincidentally matches your global plans for freedom.
Italy is also a part of Europe (old Europe).
the US has threatened Europe at many different levels, including militarily, in the past. Since we pose an actual threat to US power and influence it is not hard to imagine that in the future more threats will arise.
If Europe ever threatens US global corporate interests it will be bullied and threatened with attack - this is the demonstrable pattern of US imperialism. Only if we are not dependant on American military technology can we ever have the option to do defend ourselves against it if the need arises. Only a fool would deny himself even the option of self defence against a tyrant - even if the tyrant is one who currently pats you on the head and says 'good boy, good faithful boy'.
Since Americans are parochial and not very sophisticated let me put it in terms you might understand: would you like to rely for your national defence on Gallileo?
The only agenda the US has is a world were all countries have some form of democratically elected government and a homegrown form of capitalism.
Jeeeeesus, where to start with this one? (do you work or Bush?)
Understand that I dont blame you for your public display of self-delusion. You are a dupe. All that saluting the flag crap you people do at school has indoctrinated you into the belief you are part of a good nation. But ask around the World. Ask the people of S.America who have spent decades of being murdered tortured raped and otherwise subject to US sponsored US organised terrorism by Fascist governments and their Green Beret trained special forces who are taught to electrocute burn and beat. All financed by the CIA in order to protect US banana/oil/rubber/whatever companies.
of course you'll need to browse at -1 Troll to see this since all the yanks mods will regard this comment as clearly unhelpful to freedom.
And if I ever fly to the US I will be detained at guantanamo bay as a "terrorist sympathiser". Another legitimate act of self defence by Bush.
Re:Cooperation isn't always positive... (Score:3, Insightful)
Uh, oh, maybe that's why the rest of the world is a bit worried about the US keeping a hegemony in areas such as this.
And exactly what IS China doing to "democratic Taiwan" (FYI, Taiwan was until few years ago controlled by the military, and still isn't exactly a model of multi party representative democracy, though at least they allow more than one party to take part in elections now)? Yes, they are not on happy terms, but would the US be happy if a state, say California, broke away from the Union, and proceeded to insist that it was the rightful USA, armed itself to the teeth, and made it clear to anyone who cared to ask that it would very much like to take over?
I'm not saying I like the current government of China - I don't. But with regards to Taiwan, Taiwan has through most of it's history been extremely confrontational considering that the Chinese government still see them more or less as an occupation force occupying a Chinese province. It's not exactly a great way of ensuring stability.
As for firewalling an entire continent - look at a bloody map. China is far from a continent. Yes, the firewalling is bad, but as for being "infected" by ideas like ownership, think again. If you spoke of China pre Deng Xiaoping, then yes, probably. But China started embracing limited market economy in the 80's, and has a quite large group of people that own significant amounts of property and shares.
As for equality - what equality? The US grant equal legal rights, but thanks to inheritance and tax legislation, it certainly doesn't grant equal opportunity, unless you believe the reason the percentage of kids who end up going to great schools and getting great jobs is so much higher from rich families than poor is that poor people are stupid. I certainly hope that you're not that stupid.
China certainly has a class based society too (soo much for being "communist" - and FYI, a state can't be communist, that's a contradiction in terms), but if you're going to extoll the virtues of the US government over China at least try to choose arguments that can't equally well be used against the US.
Media control and censorship is a good one - I agree with you there.
One thing that has always interested me though, is WHO cares about political oppression. Fact is, for ordinary people in developing countries, whether or not they can elect their own government is much less interesting than whether or not they get food on the table. The reason you're seeing little opposition in China is that the opposition is relatively confined to students and the urban population, who can afford to spend time on it. That's a pattern that is common. As long as the current government is delivering economic growth at a far higher rate than most democratic regimes, they'll sit safely, at least until the Chinese population get wealthy enough that political freedom would make a difference.
As for sharing technology, what makes you think China needs European technology to achieve this? Russia has had GLONASS up and running for a decade. You don't exactly need cutting edge technology to do this. And it's well documented that China has been getting a LOT of help from Russia on their space program - the capsule they're going to use for their first manned mission is a modified Soyuz design, for instance.
Re:Short sighted (Score:2, Insightful)
As to your two "examples"....
1. First of all there is no "Hague Invasion Act". That's what it's been named by it's detractors. Its actual name is the "anti-ICC American Service members Protection Act." So right off the bat you show your bias. Prosecuting real war criminals is one thing, and sure there have been American war criminals, just as in an military. They are the exception though, as 99.9% of US servicemen are very professional well disciplined individuals. Letting the ICC, which is nothing more then a political tool, prosecute whomever it wants is absurd. They already were talking about bringing Tommy Franks, Dick Cheney, and every other US leader up on charges.
2. Your 2nd example is nearly 60 years old, surely you can come up with something better then this. Even at 60 years ago what the US did wasn't out of line for the time. If Italy had elected communists that would have been the last election they ever had. After all this is the same Europe the elected Hitler and Mussolini to Parliament.
"Since Americans are parochial and not very sophisticated"...
You lose all creditability with a statement like that. Ever since racial superiority and religious superiority have became unfashionable now you guys go out and come up with "cultural superiority"... pure stupidity. If you actually believe it then you have ZERO understanding of the US or the American people. So go home and keep to yourself because you bring nothing to an otherwise legitimate debate.