Light Bulb Replacements 976
LoveOO writes Boston.com has a story about three companies which are trying to replace the Light bulb. I say it's about time and what about hydrogen powered vehicles? Two things that annoy me are filling the gas tank and changing light bulbs. It's time we did alot less of both."
Hydrogen Power (Score:1, Interesting)
Slashdot needs a basic physics primer that explains such concepts as "energy" and the laws of thermodynamics.
Electrical issues (Score:5, Interesting)
Does anyone know of a whole-house solution for providing clean, voltage-regulated power to an entire house? I probably have $50K+ of computers, music equipment, home theatre, etc, and all of it would be better off with clean power.
We have whole-house solutions for water filtering, air filtering, so where's my whole-house solution for clean power (and maybe even whole-house UPS?)
Re:'Cause.. (Score:5, Interesting)
Most people assume that hydrogen is disproportionately dangerous because of the Hindenburg disaster. The fact is that if gasoline powered engines were invented today, gasoline is volatile enough that they would be considered too unsafe to be approved.
Hydrogen - The future of Buzzword Energy (Score:3, Interesting)
The fact is that you need energy to produce hydrogen, and that energy is probably going to come from either Coal, or Natural Gas. The end user thinks their helping the environment, but what really happens is that the production of a carbon exhaust is moved back in the supply chain. The amount of Hydrogen produced by a renewable source in any reasonably short time frame (20 years) is going to be almost negligible.
The Hydrogen Future seems too good to be true, because it is.
--Mike--
Re:Patent abusing scum (Score:4, Interesting)
No, they can't. The big outdoor big-screen TV's at the race track in Saratoga NY use this. One Red, one Green, and one Blue LED for each pixel. Been done, prior art, now go crawl back into the hole from which you came, you dirty low-life patent weasel
Terrible color and they often don't fit. (Score:4, Interesting)
I've tried over and over to use flourescents, but:
Will these be permanent? (Score:3, Interesting)
I also wonder if any company who invents these lightbulbs will not build in some sort of artificially short lifespan so as to have an increased revenue as people have to continually buy more.
LED traffic signals (Score:5, Interesting)
I must say that Color Kinetics gear rocks. Their color-mixing LED arrays not only look cool, but are a neat toy to program for fancy light shows.
Also on the LED front, the city where I currently reside (champaign, IL) recently passed funding and a proposal to replace all of the old incandescent traffic signals with LED arrays. Should cost a lot of money originally, but will save big on electricity bills in the long run. Here is an interesing EPA EnergyStar paper [grrn.org] talking about the potential energy savings that cities can get from this technology -- 1 Million kWh and nearly $70,000 per year per 100 intersections! Also, LED based traffic signals are (IMHO) easier to see both at night and during the day.
One complaint from a study [uiuc.edu] is that the green traffic lights are actually too bright.
worlds oldest currently operating college webcam [mitwebcam.com]Re:Heard of Flourescence? (Score:3, Interesting)
If LEDs don't have this problem, then they would be a better solution for me.
Re:'Cause.. (Score:1, Interesting)
Hydrogen is not that explosive, maybe, but it is highly flammable. And when you mix it with oxygen it can really get going. The thing about oxygen is that the air is full of it.
Personally I wouldn't feel comfortable driving at high speeds on roads with SUVs and a big tank of gaseous hydrogen in the tank.
What I'm interested in is those hydrogen pellets we saw mentioned here a month or two back.
Why were you wasting power (Score:3, Interesting)
by running an exterior light all night in the first place?
Light polluting scum. [discover.com]
Cleaner Production (Score:5, Interesting)
Not saying its 100% clean, but its a net gain of 'clean', when you take into account the filth cars spew out using carbon based fuels directly..
And no, I'm not a tree hugger.. I LOVE my car.. but I also realize what it spits out the back end due to its fuel..
Re:Mousetrap (Score:5, Interesting)
Lightbulb replacements discouraged (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm sure GE had something to do with the product never seeing the "light of day" (um...yeah).
Re:Patent abusing scum (Score:5, Interesting)
How is controlling an LED lighting system any different than controlling a regular lighting system? The answer is that it is not. This company is a patent scammer. I think they are using a tried an true formula:
1) hear about new technology
2) figure out what existing methods are analogous in new technology (real complicated stuff like oh they emit light too so how about we invent special "LED switches")
3) Patent said "novel" invention.
4) Threaten to sue all the real companies that actually want to make stuff and sell it.
5) profit.
Less power, less labor (Score:1, Interesting)
With the recent blackout, especially here in Detroit/S.E. Michigan, I'm surprised I haven't heard much about converting to LED traffic signals. The power draw would be a lot less (less drain on power grid) and they could recover the higher parts cost because of less labor involved in replacing the traffic bulbs i.e. the LEDs last a lot longer than bulbs. You can even see them in the sunshine.
And lord knows, anyone who has driven through Detroit is familiar with burned-out traffic bulbs. LEDs seem like the ideal replacement.
In my mind, the pros and cons (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Use Compact Flourescents for Lighting! (Score:2, Interesting)
Also, I like the LED stoplights. What I hate are those weird fresnel-lens type stoplights that you can't see clearly from certain angles (anyone else know what I'm talking about?).
Re:Color.... (Score:5, Interesting)
Last I looked into white LEDs there was still a color problem. The light comes out just a bit too blue. At the time, it was impossible to get a truer white in a single 'bulb'.
I bought an LED desk lamp that has an array of about 100 LEDs. To get around the bluish color problem, about a third of the LEDs are orange to make the light warmer colored. Unfortunately it is still not quite like incandescents or flourescents. The light from the lamp still makes skin tones look sickly bluish gray. It's very bright for only using 5 Watts. I believe that flourescent lights are still more efficient, but there is a certain coolness factor of having an LED lamp.
If anyone is interested, here is a link to the PDF of the GALAXe LED desk lamp [tcpi.com]
Re:The thing is... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Hydrogen Power (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Electrical issues (Score:5, Interesting)
Don't LEDs last forever? (Score:5, Interesting)
Why does the article say "lasts up to 10 times longer"? Are they figuring on the probability of losing them to surges or accidents? Or is there something I don't know about LEDs?
Re:Color.... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Doesn't take much time... (Score:5, Interesting)
It also decreases lightbulb sales. It's just like many other things (consumer electronics, computer parts, shoes, clothes, etc.) that are basically designed to break after a certain amount of time.
Before this mentality took over in the 1950's, things were made to last forever and had a really sturdy, well-crafted feel to them. A lot of stuff from this period still works perfectly today.
400Hz flourescents. (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:'Cause.. (Score:1, Interesting)
"Furthermore, the substance used to coat the cotton skin
"the total mixture might well serve as a respectable rocket propellant,"
connectors (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Must be that new math.... (Score:3, Interesting)
Also remember that if you look at a CFL, it will look less bright than an incandescent at the same lumen output, because the light is less like a point source. Compare the two by looking at how well they illuminate the room or the book you're reading. To me, the ability to accidentally glance at the bulb without my eyes hurting is an advantage of the CFL. Oh, and another point - some CFLs take about a minute to get to full brightness.
As far as not fitting, that's been a problem for me too, but it's getting better. There are 9 watt CFL twist bulbs that fit in the little ceiling fan light kits now; they do an adequate job of replacing a 40W bulb, and are 2 for $10 at WalMart. I only wish they were dimmable.
Re:LED traffic signals (Score:2, Interesting)
A lot of cities in California did this during the power crisis, largely because it turns out that the cost savings are big enough to pay for the switch very quickly (especially when your electical rates are going through the roof). They're great, and I can't imagine going back.
And that may not even be the biggest savings. I've been told that the cost of physically replacing burned out bulbs in traffic lights is at least as expensive as powering them. Since the LEDs hardly ever need changing, there's a big cost savings on top of the reduced electrical bill.
why so much empty space? (Score:2, Interesting)
but why is the tube so big compared to such a small filament? if it's a heat dissipation issue, it seems like there would be other ways to deal with it. with so much miniaturization elsewhere, why is the old light bulb not any smaller?
Re:'Cause.. (Score:3, Interesting)
True, but if you're burning an air-H2 mixture isn't NOx a problem, just as it is when burning anything else in air?
Anyway, I don't get the obsession with having end users mess with H2. H2 is potentially dangerous (high pressure tanks, flamability), expensive (see high pressure tanks), and inefficient (fuel tends to leak out). Yea, I know people are working on better/safer/cheaper H2 storgage solutions, and hopefully they meet with more success than the people working on better/cheaper batteries for electric cars.
Why not zinc-air fuel cells instead of hydrogen fuel cells? The zinc-air reaction is not as efficient as the hydrogen-air one, but it makes up for that in other ways. The input is zinc metal, the output is zinc-oxide -- both safe, stable solids. The electrolyte is rather poisonous, but so is gasoline, battery acid and radiator fluid. There's no need for expensive high-pressure tanks or need to wait for a breakthrough in storage technology. The ingredients don't leak out while your car is parked at the airport. Dealing with solid fuel and waste products can be handled by pumping a slurry of the electrolyte and zinc/zinc-oxide.
I'm not saying zinc-air is the ultimate solution but it seems to be a more practical solution for cars than hydrogen.
Iz
MIT Technology Review article (Score:4, Interesting)
MIT Technology Review [technologyreview.com] did a nice article on the development of LED replacements for light bulbs in the May 2003 issue. However, you need to be a paid subscriber to read this online.
The article focuses on the often secretive research going on at competing companies to develop a cost-effective white LED, which is needed to replace general illumination. Most white LEDs today are actually UV emitters with a white phosphor, reducing the efficiency. The other standard approach is to have red, green and blue LEDs together with a diffuser.
Re:Color.... (Score:3, Interesting)
What the article failed to state is anything about ORGANIC LEDs, who's future is much more important than a reqular LED.
OLEDs have been around for a while now, and the idea is to line your ceiling with them to create light. The problem is they are too expensive, and currently a white OLED has only been stable for around 15 minutes. BUT, green OLEDs once had the same problems white OLEDs have now. So there is much room in the future for improvement in quality and price.
One reason the color may be off is becuase a regular incandecant light bulb emits extra red and orange light into the visible spectrum. This is why flourescent lamps are often not favorable. Lighting manufacturers will go through extensive eye comfot tests that deal with color, flickering, and lamp life/lumen mantainance testing before the bulbs go out on the market.
-n
Re:Must be that new math.... (Score:4, Interesting)
Just throwing out ideas here... Couldn't you arrange a few LEDs in a hemisphere and put a glass sphere/bulb over it that is translucent (ie, looks like finely-sanded glass) to diffuse (?scatter?) the light to make the photons go in a more varied pattern (or lack thereof)? I guess there would still be spots of brighter light where the LEDs are positioned, but if you put a few layers of it, it might work (not to mention cost 10x as much).
There's an easy way to tell (Score:2, Interesting)
I don't think you're right about regular light bulbs consuming fewer resources. We have a handy measure of the resources consumed to make something. It's called cost. That is, the total value of the resources used to make something. The price you pay for something that is traded as competitively as light bulbs is very close to the cost of the resources consumed making it (human and physical)
With compact florescent bulbs, the initial cost is higher ($8.00 vs. $0.20), but the lifetime cost is lower due to lower energy use and longer life. Incandescant lights are cheaper to make and better for the environment in low duty cycle applications (say in a closet), but are worse when the light is on continouslyWhat about Dimming??? (Score:2, Interesting)
If you can't dim them they're not going to be largely accepted and adopted, even at relitavely cheap price points.
Anyone care to clue me in as to if there are products like this or not yet? If so, if not - how would this work.
Thanks.
Re:Heard of Flourescence? (Score:3, Interesting)
They also don't work well with three-way light fixtures. I've seen three-way flourescents (3 U-bulbs, with one bulb coming on for each power level), but not in the past 2-3 years. In general, they'll work - but not come on at the lowest level and have no brightness change between the second and third levels (as you'd expect). My wife likes her three way bedside lamp, so it remains a incandescent bulb.
They also don't work well in exposed fixtures. The bulbs are certainly not designed for looks... and while I tried putting them into a 5 light chandelier in our foyer, my wife quickly objected. The ceiling fan in our room has a similar issue - 4 exposed lights.
I've switched as many bulbs as is practical over to CFL, but there's a lot of fixtures in the house that are either too small (the CFL's are still larger than incandescent, and 1/4" can make all the difference in the world), on dimmers, or exposed.
The last issue I've run across is that while a CFL may claim to be 100W of brightness, they lie. A 100W incandescent in my attic is considerably brighter than a 23W CFL - despite claims otherwise. The CFL left me peering around for things, while the incandescent provided plenty of light, particularly further away from the bulb.
Re:Brilliant Idea! (Score:2, Interesting)
Oldest incandescent light (Score:3, Interesting)
Need DC power first (Score:1, Interesting)
LED lighting could resurrect the old idea of having a DC line in houses. The only reason it's never been implemented is to make light-bulbs work well, you would still need >60V DC and that's a fatal shock risk. If houses got a "safe-ish" 20V DC line, we wouldn't have an average of 40 transformers per household (think about how many little things you have which require transformers).
LEDs wont save 40% power (Score:3, Interesting)
An incandescent light bulb is an ordinary resistor, which means that the current it draws from the net is in phase with voltage and sinus in shape.
LED and those little flourescent lamps are different. They need a rectifier to work (or are rectifiers themselves). This means that the current they draw is some ugly shape that only remotely resembles sinus. This means that this current contains a large proportion of higher harmonics (e.g. current that has 100, 150, 200, etc. Hz, ask Mr. Fourier). While your house meter may show less used kWh, these higher harmonics will cause bigger losses at your local transformer. Why? Because losses in transformer core rise with the square of frequency.
Computers with their switching power supplies already cause a lot of this kind of problems. If everyone would begin using LED lamps it would get much worse and power savings would not be that significant (they would only move from your house to transformers and power stations)
Re:'Cause.. (Score:3, Interesting)
As far as zinc-air: zinc is both way too heavy and way too expensive to be a viable vehicle fuel!
Re:Lightbulb replacements discouraged (Score:2, Interesting)
I have the night lights throughout my house and a watch and they work very well.
While GE may have killed it off, I believe it is often that marketeers run off to some new whiz-bang, higher profit (at the time) technology and "forget" it, only later to return when more profitiable or sexy.
$100 for and LED bulb when CF cost $5? (Score:2, Interesting)
Most of the light bulbs in my house are 12 Watt CFs (as bright as 60 W bulbs). They last a very long time and cost less that $5 each.
LED Dimmers (Score:3, Interesting)
LED Failures (Score:2, Interesting)
I wonder if anybody is doing failure analysis?
I betcha the City would gladly send the bulb off to someone in return for a replacement.
If interested, reply to me and I'll print it off and drop it off at City hall.
Sometimes, analyzing a part that failed in the field can yield useful insights into the failure process.
How 'bout Aluminum-Air batteries? (Score:3, Interesting)
Aluminum is much lighter than zinc.
It's been said that if you throw away an aluminum can, it might as well be half full of gasoline, because that's how much energy it takes to smelt aluminum oxide (from bauxite ore).
With that in mind, there are companies that have been working on aluminum-air batteries that will release the energy from aluminum by converting it back into oxide through a fuel-cell like process. It consists of a sandwich of consumable aluminum plates for the anode, a salt solution, and non-consumable yet air permeable plates for the cathodes. As the anodes corrode away, replace them, and return the used plates to a recycle center to be "recharged" by re-smelting them into aluminum metal again. Smelting aluminum is a very energy consuming process (known as the Hall-Heroult reduction process), but it is essentially the aluminum-air battery in reverse (and in massive scale).
Some chemistry know-it-alls might want to put on their thinking caps and calculate how much energy it takes to hydrolize water into hydrogen and oxygen, and how much energy it takes to turn aluminum oxide into aluminum and oxygen, but then factor in the weight vs. power output of an aluminum-air battery and weight vs. power output of a fuel cell + hydrogen storage tank.
For those who just gotta do something now, here [exploratorium.edu] is a link that shows you how to roll your own aluminum air battery, and then you can hook a couple in series and get back to the topic of this thread and power some LEDs.