Light Bulb Replacements 976
LoveOO writes Boston.com has a story about three companies which are trying to replace the Light bulb. I say it's about time and what about hydrogen powered vehicles? Two things that annoy me are filling the gas tank and changing light bulbs. It's time we did alot less of both."
Color.... (Score:5, Informative)
Patent abusing scum (Score:4, Informative)
Well, I'm damn sure Color Kinetics isn't getting any of my money. From the article:
The company holds 19 patents related to the control of LED lighting systems, and has filed for more than 100 additional patents. "We spend about a million dollars a year filing patents," says chief executive George Mueller. The company has two full-time patent lawyers in-house, and also works with the Boston firm of Wolf, Greenfield & Sacks.
And:
It'll be interesting to see whether Color Kinetics can exact a licensing fee from anyone who blends colored LEDs. Says Simms: "We haven't invested the fortune that we have in intellectual property without planning to defend it."
I'm not going to rant about this, because you've all heard it before. So I'll just sit here and fume silently...
Hyrdogen... (Score:5, Informative)
Electricity more than bulb cost (Score:3, Informative)
((((12 x 365) x 100) / 1,000) x $0.07) = $30.66
this is under the 5000 hours of long life bulbs which cost less than $3.
Who cares how much the bulb costs ?
Use Compact Flourescents for Lighting! (Score:5, Informative)
LEDs have their places where you need something bright and compact that can be turned on and off quickly. I like the new LED flashlights, brake lights, and street lights. But use flourescents for lighting, please, and use them today.
Re:'Cause.. (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Heard of Flourescence? (Score:5, Informative)
On the other hand, the modern bulbs are really good about lighting up right away, not flickering, and not dying prematurely--hopefully (unlike some of the early screw type flourescents).
One word of advice from me to Slashdot: Don't buy the "Lights of America" brand, they're nothing but trouble.
Re:'Cause.. (Score:5, Informative)
that probably wouldn't happen. Contrary to popular belief, Hydrogen isn't very dangerous. Although it is extremely flammable, A hydrogen fire will be extremely short lived and burn straight up as the hydrogen rises rapidly, as opposed to a gasolene fire, which will burn for a comparativly long time and flows over the ground.
additionally, most hydrogen fuel cell designs involve storing the hydrogen in some stable form, such as chemically bound to a metal compound. When a small electric current is run across the metal, the hydrogen is released in small amounts. Its not like the back of your SUV would have a huge compressed hydrogen tank in it.
Im sure the subject of the hidenburg (sp?) will occur in this thread, so i should probably mention that recent studies on that explosion point to the cause of the huge red fire being not the hydrogen itself, but the skin of the airship which was coated with an extremely flammable material chemically similar to solid rocket fuel. Witnesses at the scene reported seeing a large red flame erupt from the airship. Hydrogen burns with an almost invisible blue flame, and would have exploded above the airship as the hydrogen escaped. It is likely that the fire was started when an electrical discharge ignited the skin of the airship, and that the hydrogen had little to do with the outcome, i.e, a similar result would have occured if helium was used instead.
Bulb life (Score:4, Informative)
Hydrogen is a joke. It takes energy to break apart water. Besides, the highest energy density available is in hydrocarbon chains (i.e. gasoline).
No lightbulb jokes (Score:3, Informative)
A whole avenue of humourous pleasure will be closed
Re:'Cause.. (Score:5, Informative)
Hydrogen is not a joke (Score:2, Informative)
While hydrogen fuel cells are not a source of energy, they are a storage medium that is significantly more efficient than batteries.
The idea is to centrally generate hydrogen (and maybe supliment at home with solar generation) so we don't have to burn so many hydrocarbons anymore. How the central generation of hydrogen is acheived can be altered as technology permits, WITHOUT replacing the entire energy infrastructure.
It's not the cost of the bulb (Score:2, Informative)
Also, since LED use less power, replacing the bulbs with LED will also make it more energy efficient.
Re:Heard of Flourescence? (Score:5, Informative)
Agreed. I bought 10 of them, and 5 were dead within 2 months. Most of the others are seeing serious discoloration around the base of the bulb. These are in open air, so I don't think the fixture is causing overheating. Stick with the better brands.
Re:A lot (Score:3, Informative)
I apologize to the person who was deeply offended and scandalized by my belief. Plez forgiv me.
Re:Hyrdogen... (Score:3, Informative)
No, it's relative.
Theoretically, energy produced at a central plant and then shipped elsewhere via hydrogen results in more effecieint use of power than millions of seperate, individual power plants.
Last I heard, this is espeically true for gasoline vs. "big oil fired hydrogen plant." Plus, you can clean and maintain the "big oil fired hydrogen plant" a lot easier than the engines of a million cars.
As for the other power sources you listed: solar eventually pays for itself, and bugger on the wildlife. Nuclear waste can be re-used, used in weapons, used in an Orion Drive, etc. Microwave from stellites, while a rather silly idea to begin with, is "dangerous", not "unclean" in your point.
(And what about wind, hydroelectric, thermal disparity, or 'running office worker' power?)
Re:Heard of Flourescence? (Score:4, Informative)
I've got 2 houses using these bulbs exclusively (except the oven and fridge), saving about $10/month (September to March) in electricity. I've got bulbs 5 years old still running strong.
I love 'em.
Re:Terrible color and they often don't fit. (Score:3, Informative)
But #2, yes, that it a problem. Though as X10 has utterly failed to be anything close to reliable at my house I am about to rip it all out. So at least for me #2 is also no longer a concern...
Re:Color.... (Score:3, Informative)
True. However, at least one of the major lightbulb companies based here in the US has an aggressive program to bring LEDs to the masses. Right now, they are pushing R&D on advanced LED designs in cooperation with LED manufacturers and working on getting the color right. They anticipate that widespread home use is within this decade. They are nearly ready with replacements for commercial use.
Others have cited the problem of getting the Wal-Mart crowd to cough up a few extra bucks for LED bulbs even though they have better life cycle costs. Expect a strong government push to make the move, possibly including taxes or outright bans on the old bulbs. In many areas, there are building codes that limit the total wattage of lighting in new retail and commercial construction - to the point that current store designs are impossible to recreate.
Re:'Cause.. (Score:5, Informative)
> highly flammable.
It's not the flammability that's the hazard associated with pressurized gas cylinders (like hydrogen). It's the pressure. Heck, a *helium* cylinder can kill you if mishandled.
Re:'Cause.. (Score:5, Informative)
Hydrogen cannot explode in a "mushroom cloud", since that is typical of H-bombs, that require an A-bomb as a detonator. Now, if the other car had an A-bomb onboard, this might have a far-fetched possibility to happen.
However H2 is pretty safe. It is ultralight, which means that, if it has a clean path to the sky, it will not accumulate as gasoline fumes; that's why nobody on the Hindenburg died because of hydrogen (Yeah, nobody). Some were killed by the explosion in the diesel engines, others were so scared by the flames above them that they jumped out of the gondola - crashing in the ground 100 meters below, but all those who remained in the gondola survived the crash landing. That's because the hydrogen flames went straight upwards, while in a gasoline fire you have liquid gasoline running all over the place.
The real safety issue with H2 is that it fires very easily. You need a spark to ignite a mixture of air and methane, while static electricity is enough for hydrogen and air. Normal atmosphere in a windy day is normally enough. That's sometimes actually a Good Thing, because hydrogen is lit way before it can accumulate in large quantities.
Re:Heard of Flourescence? (Score:3, Informative)
Inova Microlight (Score:4, Informative)
I recenly bought a bunch of Inova Microlights [botachtactical.com] to pass out at work as a going away gift and the amout of light they product for their size in amazing.
I've been really itching to get ahold of a next generation Luxeon Star [luxeonstar.com] LED light. The CMG Sonic and Infinity [cmgequipment.com] look prety sturdy.
More information and comparisons on LEDs and LED flashlights han be found here [att.net].
Also... (Score:5, Informative)
(this is just the ones that are improperly disposed of and break)
Re:Terrible color and they often don't fit. (Score:5, Informative)
1. They often don't fit in a light fixture.
I recently bought some GE compact flourescent bulbs for our kitchen, which were $8 for two "60W" bulbs. They are *exactly* the same size as the incadescents they are replacing, including the base, which is only ~1" in diameter, only draw 15W, and are ~15% brighter than a 60W incandescent.
3. They make everyone look slightly green.
I have no idea what you are talking about here. Our compact flourescent lights have a much more pleasing spectrum than the yellow incandescents, and are very close to the full-spectrum lights we use around the house.
I don't use X10, and so can't answer to that, but please don't post outdated nonsense.
Re:The problem is cost (Score:4, Informative)
Now, to manufacture LEDs in bulk requires chipmaking equipment, but you're making thousands of LEDs per wafer, so there's an economy of scale there. And the yields tend to improve significantly as the process matures. Also, I'm reasonably sure that making LEDs is considerably more straight forward than microprocessors, if for no other reason than the mask is simpler and you're only making a single component (a huge diode array) on the wafer.
Sunbeam (Score:5, Informative)
Keep shopping.
I, too, hated the funky color flourescent lights produced. Then, about a year ago, I discovered that Sunbeam sold screw-in flourescent lights that emit light indistinguishable from incandescents (to my pretty picky eyes).
I originally bought them from Target but stopped by a few days ago for the first time in a long time and learned that the don't sell them anymore. Oh, the wonders of the American marketing machine.
Not all flourscent lights are the same. Find the Sunbeams.
--Richard
Re:Hyrdogen... (Score:3, Informative)
That's an over simplification. I've seen three levels of understanding with the use of hydrogen fueling, and the two most common are wrong.
The first is the (seemingly) obvious: hydrogen doesn't emit greenhouse gasses, and is cleaner to use.
Digging slightly deeper, some people notice that, in fact, there isn't a lot of easy-to-access hydrogen sitting around. So getting that hydrogen will use the fossil fuels we were trying to avoid using. At this level, people say, "Well, hydrogen fuel is nice and all, but it just moves the problem from the car itself emitting gasses to the hydrogen plant. We shouldn't bother with hydrogen."
But saying hydrogen fuel just moves the problem of pollution one step back doesn't dig deep enough. Because at a large factory designed to extract hydrogen, you're going to be able to get much more efficiency out of the process. A quick Google search pointed to a number of webpages saying the average car internal combustion engine gets between 20% and 30% of the possible energy out of its gas. Most cars are on the lower end of that spectrum. The rest is of the energy wasted as heat and whatnot. But at a multi-million or billion dollar extracting plant, that efficiency is going to rise, so that extracting hydrogen DOES become more environmentally friendly. When you're doing something on a large scale, you can afford to get more efficient. Even counting in the extra step of converting the energy from fossil fuel to hydrogen (which, of course, means you're going to lose some of that potential energy) you should be able to pollute less than current gas cars.
That isn't to say the problem of fossil fuel pollution is entirely removed. People who hearald the coming of the hydrogen age as an immediate and simple sollution to pullotion need to think a little harder. But people who laugh at hydrogen use, saying it will be just as polluting, need to think a little harder too.
-Trillian
Other notes (all from easy google searches):
A Clinton-era paper on the possibilities of hydrogen cars: http://www.llnl.gov/str/Hybrid.html
A spec-sheet of the above concept car: http://www.clean-air.org/hybrid_hydrogen_concept_
Better Light (Score:2, Informative)
If you read the article it only shows a drop from 100 watts to 60 watts, not much of a change compaired to the florecents (did I miss something?) and $100 a pop sucks.
click...
Re:Heard of Flourescence? (Score:5, Informative)
In the last few years, several of my gripes about flourescents are no more:
Use 130V bulbs (Score:4, Informative)
Using a bulb rated at a higher voltage (at least 5V) than your electrical system (mine seems to provide 119V at a typical light socket on a circuit running around 6A) will extend the life of your bulbs by an order of magnitude, not just by a few weeks/months: the tradeoff is that light output is decreased, in my case by about 10%. No problem, just use a higher wattage bulb or more of them.
Re:'Cause.. (Score:3, Informative)
Read about it here:
http://engineer.ea.ucla.edu/releases/blimp
Sure Hydrogen is explosive, but gasoline is explosive and any remaining liquid gasoline will continue to burn afterwards. In contrast any uncontained hydrogen that has not burned will dissapate in the atmosphere. Much like natural gas, except that hydrogen will dissapate more quickly which would make it safer than natural gas for home heating applications. I believe that it would more readily escape the confines of a house, making it less likely to concentrate indoors enough to make it explosive.
From a physical standpoint hydrogen is much safer than gasoline, so the drawback is not safety, it has just been harder to reach enough hydrogen density to make it worthwhile as a transportable energy source.
Well, they've got the mechanics down... (Score:4, Informative)
So all they have to work on next is making it look overtly huge (when it doesn't need to be).
Re:'Cause.. (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Use Compact Flourescents for Lighting! (Score:2, Informative)
Absolutely. I've replaced almost all of my incandescent bulbs with compact fluorescents, and they're great. I still use incandescents in a few places where I don't leave the lights on for long and I want their instant-on capability, but I'm mostly using CFs now. They've come down in price a lot recently, an places like IKEA are now selling them for as little as $2.50 apiece.
Re:Patent abusing scum (Score:2, Informative)
What Color Kinetics does, and does really well, is do smooth color fades and smooth dimming with the LEDs. This isn't fantastic, but it is pretty nifty. It's more than just hitting a switch (at least in many architectural/theatrical uses)
=) B
Bike Lights (Score:4, Informative)
Uhhhh... (Score:3, Informative)
Incadescents emit ALL colors, as they are radiating blackbodies (this is also why they are inefficient). Since LEDs can only emit specific colors, they have to resort to tricks to try to mimic the fullband color of incandescents. White LEDs are like florescent bulbs: they emit ultraviolet and use a powder-coating which glows bluish-white as a result. The trick is getting the powder chemistry correct without violating more advanced florescent lightbulb patents.
Re:'Cause.. (Score:5, Informative)
You don't "burn" the hydrogen in a hydrogen powered car, and you don't "burn" the natural gas to produce hydrogen. Natural gas is composed of hydrocarbons (natural gas consists of only hydrogen and carbon atoms; granted it is probably not pure, so there might be trace elements in there). The natural gas is put through a chemical process to extract the hydrogen. This chemical process need not produce CO. (In fact burning hydrocarbons only produces CO when incomplete combustion takes place--the chemical reaction doesn't complete properly in an internal combustion engine. Any factory that produces hydrogen doesn't need to produce CO, if it does, it can capture that CO and combine it with O to produce CO2 which is much safer on the enviroment)
The Real Deal (Score:5, Informative)
Florescents are your best bet stop gap and I hear that Ikea sells them for the best price available anywhere and they are consistently coming down in price everywhere.
LED's are the Grail. They are extremely minimalist in raw resources( a transistor and a plastic shell that will outlast 5 or 6 FLORESCENTS), they beat even florescents in energy consuption by a factor of 4 or more, solid state so droppage or shock damage are not a factor. Color is easy to fix and as for price... Who here paid 10 large(this means $10,000USD in case your not in the know) for a laptop in 1993? Ok now how many shelled out $700 this year? LED's are Diodes just like the ones the computer industry has been perfecting for decades. The price will fall. Alot.
Sidenote: All transistors and diodes produces photons as a byproduct Your computer is (depending on its transistor density, since the wavelength of the photons are dependent on the size of the transistor) currently pumping out microwave and radio energy. Since they are not optomized for this effect as LED's are they amount is reletively small and most is absorbed into the chips structure and converted to heat.
Re:Nonsense? (Score:5, Informative)
Not quite true. Flourescent bulbs come in a variety of different color temperatures. Incandescent bulbs are typically around 2800 K. You can get flourescent bulbs at around 3000K, at 4100 K, and at 5000K (close to daylight, which is 5500K). There are also many specialty bulbs (such as Ott-Lite [ott-lite.com]) that give "true color" from flourescent bulbs. It is practically impossible to get true color from incandescent bulbs.
C.R.I and Color Temperature (Score:3, Informative)
Fluorescent tubes (and most compact fluorescents) tend to have a CRI around 82 (crappy), which is one big reason why people don't like to use them. Many also flicker and buzz and don't like to start in cold weather, but that's another issue.
So what about these LEDs? Just from the way LEDs work, I expect you might be able to get any color temperature you want, but your CRI is definitely going to be crappy. You can't approximate a continuous spectrum well with only a small number of discrete wavelengths, even if the light itself looks "white".
Re:Thats a good reason not to adopt fuel cells.... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:'Cause.. (Score:5, Informative)
An article on it beating the other cards is here. [evworld.com]
Re:Don't LEDs last forever? (Score:2, Informative)
So a LED that stays at room temperature at 50% rated current, might very well last several decades or more of continuous operation, assuming no power surges ever hit it.
Retail hydrogen outlet opens. (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Don't LEDs last forever? (Score:5, Informative)
LEDs will fade slowly with time, thought it's a very slow process for diodes operated at low levels.
LEDs contain an interface between two semiconductor layers; it is around this interface that light is generated. Electrons crossing this interface can occasionally kick atoms back and forth over this boundary. Eventually, enough cross-contamination will occur to dim and then extinguish the LED. This does take a long time. Note also that this process is accelerated at high temperatures.
Re:Heard of Flourescence? (Score:3, Informative)
* No, that's not a typo. The mains voltage is 60Hz, but the waverform crosses zero twice each cycle.
Re:'Cause.. (Score:2, Informative)
Go check out the rest of the article, it's pretty informative and easy for non-physicists like myself to understand.
Products exists, but prices are a little high (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Guys, this is history..! (Score:5, Informative)
I'm migrating from incandescent lights to small fluorescent light bulbs that screw into the same fixtures.
A 3.5W bulb will light a closet.
A 5W bulb will light a small room.
A 15W bulb will light a living room.
A 25W bulb will light a kitchen.
Compare to 4-7W for a typical nightlight, 15W to light a typical closet 40W to light a small room, 60-75W to light a larger room, 75-100W to light one's kitchen, and that's about 20-80% power savings over incandescent lights. I've been doing this for almost 10 years now.
-uso.
Re:The thing is... (Score:5, Informative)
I recently did some calculations to see if save any money. Quebec already has one of the lowest electricity costs in North America at 5.97 cents per kWhr (above 30kWh per day). People in other places save even more!
Compact Fluorescent (10000 hr, 23 W)
===================
Initial bulb $10 + Electricity $13.73 = $23.73
Incandescent Light Bulb (1000hr, 100W)
=======================
10 bulbs $5 + Electricity $59.70 = $64.70
Plus, you save on the environmental cost of the packaging. I have also read that although CFL contain mercury, more mercury is released due to coal burning than for the equivalent 10 incandescent light bulbs.
http://www.nema.org/lamprecycle/epafactsheet-cf
Hindenburg "disaster" (Score:4, Informative)
It depends on how hard it is to change the bulb (Score:4, Informative)
The railroad industry is already replacing crossing light bulbs with arrays of LEDs. The typical application divides the round shape into 4 'pizza slice' quarters that are separate panels. The redundancy is such that even if one of them goes out completely, the other 3 are still working. Also, if one of the panels experiences substantial individual LED failures, it can be swapped out, leaving the others in place. As the article alludes, local governments are beginning to apply the same reasoning to traffic lights as well. In an application where the cost of the bulb pales in comparison to the labor to replace it, and the legal exposure should it fail, this one's a no-brainer.
Re:Must be that new math.... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Solar power from the tops of buildings... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Color.... (Score:5, Informative)
The only way of getting a wide spectrum of light is to have an object glow with heat, where the energy released per photon varies chaotically, rather than using a process that outputs individual photons which will only produce light at the wavelengths that correspond to energy gaps. Glowing with heat is lower efficiency than emitting individual photons.
I suspect that LEDs will become more popular in step with paint formulas that look good (and look right) under LED light, and also with people coming to expect LED light more.
LEDs in 3rd World Countries (Score:3, Informative)
However on NPR the other day they had a fascinating interview with this engineer who was developing cheap, sustainable light sources for 3rd world nations. Effectively he has solar panels hooked up to LEDs. They don't burn out like incandescent ones do and use very little energy. Further they are focused such that the light is more useful.
He's apparently been developing these kits and then sending them to many regions of the world where people don't have light. If you think about it, a lot of studying and education take place in the off hours when you aren't working. In these places if it is dark, this limits how people can improve their condition. Thus this is a fantastic way to really affect quality of life in these places at very little cost.
Ideally these LED sources could provide sustainable light in many places, such as rest stops, with far less maintenance and the like. The "white" light LEDs have only been out a while but already are really revolutionizing a lot. When they go mainstream for regular lighting, then as the article points out, it will really be a very good thing. It'll be cheaper and use less energy. Already most cities are converting their traffic lights over.
I started using LEDs for light when the climbing lights from places like Black Diamond came out with them. Much superior to traditional head lamps. I knew then that it was just a matter of time. So I'd really encourage people to convert. The downside right now are adaptors and then nice cheap reading lamps at places like Walmart. But it is just a matter of time. (I hate how hot my reading lamps are - I'm always afraid of falling asleep and bumping them and causing a fire -- LEDs really avoid this problem. I'd buy them if they were readily available)
Re:Doesn't take much time... (Score:3, Informative)
Apparently you don't have to use high output lightbulbs.
My house has pretty big rooms (1930s architecture); 100W light bulbs don't put out enough power to light the big rooms properly, so we use 150W bulbs. Oh, and all light bulb changing has to be done at the top of a tall ladder... and since you need two hands to change bulbs (One to turn the bulb and one to hold the bulb holder in place - they're suspended by thier own cables), you have to stand at the top of a tall ladder without holding on.
For those of you who don't know how bulbs are usually connected (at least where I am), there are two metal contacts pressed against the bulb by powerful springs. The bulb itself is pressed in against these sprung contacts, then rotated to hook two pins into little hooks.
As well as putting out more light, 150W bulbs also put out more heat. This softens the contacts on the bulb, which the sprung contacts press against. The powerful springs press against the softened metal, creating pits a few millimeters deep. These pits are deep enough to make turning the bulb virtually impossible. You have to disconnect the light at the ceiling rose and dismantle the bulb holder assembly.
Why anyone would sell bulbs with parts that would melt at normal operating temperature is beyond me. To prevent this problem, I pre-melt the contacts with a soldering iron and solder little copper plates to them. These plates distribute the pressure more evenly, preventing the pitting.
The second problem is with the bulb holders themselves. Most bulb holders are made of thermoset plastic. After all, they have to be made of something non-conductive. These tend to work well at normal temperatures, but with the heat given off by my 150W bulbs, they become brittle very quickly. I had several fail through breakage because the powerful (metal) springs were pushing against the (brittle) plastic, which couldn't take the stress and snapped.
I thought I had found a way around it with a metal lightbulb holder. The center was made of ceramic (it couldn't be metal since it had to be an insulator to stop the two contacts shorting). The temperature made the ceramic become seriously brittle, and at some point it must have been tapped by something (Possibly a stress ball I was throwing through the air) because the next time I had to change the bulb, a bunch of charred black ceramic powder fell out and my trip switch tripped.
I havn't seen another metal lightbulb holder since I had that one, so I'm using a new plastic one. I'm hoping it will be some sort of new, modern material that will perform better than the old plastic bulb holders that failed. And touch wood, it hasn't broken yet. But if I could replace my 150W bulbs with LED assemblies (Or something) that offered all the light but none of the heat, I'd be a happy man.
Just my $0.02,
Michael
Re:That might be the only way to win. (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Need DC power first (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Patent abusing scum (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Bell Curve (Score:1, Informative)
I've converted pretty much my entire house to CF. They do not buzz, all are instant on (though some take a while to warm to full brightness) and the light quality is fine.
Your electric company almost certainly has subsidies - I was paying less than $3 a bulb with mine - and they pay for themselves quickly.
We've been in this house four+ years. I did the CF conversion as soon as we moved in. I've changed just a single bulb in that time.
I don't see the point in LED lighting unless the cost comes way, way, way down - and I'm an LED flashlight fan.
No. (Score:3, Informative)
Also, white LEDs depend on the use of phosphors to change blue light into yellow/red for warmer color. Unfortunately, the phosphors wear out faster than the LEDs, which causes the light to shift in color over time.
-Mark
LED vs. Compact Fluorescent (Score:4, Informative)
Better yet, you could replace a 100 watt light bulb with a 27 watt CF and get the same brightness. For about $5 at your local Target megastore. And it will last for at least five years based on my experience.
I went through my mother's house and replaced several kilowatts worth of standard bulbs with CF's (not all the bulbs in the house, but about 25% of them) and her electricity bill has gone down on average by about $50 per month (keep in mind here in Philadelphia the electricity rate is very high).
Re:That might be the only way to win. (Score:3, Informative)
http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_320831.html [ananova.com]
and
http://www.firehouse.com/news/2001/6/11_bulb.html [firehouse.com]
Or do the google searh yourself:
Google Search [google.com]
Re:Dog mousecatchers (Score:1, Informative)
For crying out loud, just try saying that sentence out loud - it sucks! Simplify, don't complicate.... the language is supposed to develop, not regress.
Try : "I don't understand how this dog ever caught a mouse" - it's easier to understand and quicker to type.