E.U. Agrees To Launch Galileo Satellite Location System

waimate writes "The European Union today decided to go ahead with Galileo, the constellation of 30 satellites which will compete with the U.S. GPS system. The U.S. abolished selective availability three years ago partly to make GPS more useful for all mankind, but also to dissuade other countries from developing their own navigational satellite system, and thus be dependant on the U.S. for both peaceful and military purposes. Since the demise of the Russian GLONASS system, GPS is the only game in town. Evidently recent events make Europe feel less comfortable about such things, and so they're building their own. Good thing for commercialization of space, or bad thing for world peace?"

Combined receivers

[yet another coward]

A receiver compatible with both systems could provide increased accuracy over either alone. Even though current GPS is accurate enough for my practical demands, I want more for nerd reasons. I remember speculation on using both GLONASS and GPS signals several years ago with the idea of improving both reliability and accuracy.

Not a new project

[Bunji X]

Galileo has been in the planning for quite a while, and will as far as I can tell be compatible and possibly linked with the US GPS system.

The Galileo homepage [eu.int], in english.

Re:Great

[krisp]

Actually, the GPS system is owned by the Air Force. Here [flatoday.com] is a fact sheet.

The NAVSTAR Global Positioning System is managed by the NAVSTAR GPS Joint Program Office at the Space and Missile Systems Center, Los Angeles Air Force Base, Calif.

Not the army.

It's not just about challenging the US military

[grungie]

Galileo is --in theory-- much more accurate than GPS. You probably don't want your airliner to risk missing the runway by a couple of meters in thick fog. Galileo will give QoS guarantees and greater precision, which will make it a viable solution for critical systems such as air-traffic control. But I have no clue what the current plans are to enforce the policy that it should be a civilian-only system.

Accuracy

[JerryKnight]

The main problem with accuracy is the timing circuitry in the receiver. Most receivers now are accurate to a few nanoseconds, which happens to be the time it takes light (or GPS signals) about 1 foot, so 10-20 ft accuracy is typical (at least in my experience). Other than timing issues, atmospheric heating would cause inaccuracy.

The protocol of the satellites is hardly improvable, except maybe increasing the frequency of transmissions to more than 1 per second.

Re:Whirrled peas?

[Anonymous Coward]

Most guided missile systems don't use GPS for navigation

That used to be true. It's not any more. Between JDAM and the block 3 version of the BGM-109, GPS is the most widely used form of navigation in precision munitions systems. It's taken the lead over terrain-mapping and inertial reference.

It might be cool if the European system is more accurate though, especially for wardriving.

GPS is accurate to within a meter. That's less than the length of a car. So it's more accurate than it needs to be for any sort of car-based navigation, "wardriving" or otherwise.

Selective availability vs obfuscation

[KFury]

The /. article claims that the US abolished selective availability three years ago, but that's not the case. They abolished the 'fuzzing' of resolution, so that ordinary joes could get 10-foot accuracy instead of 70, but that's not selective availability.

Selective availability is the capability of 'turning off' GPS in specific geographic regions during times of war or for any other reason. They did it in Afghanistan last year, and they can do it whenever and wherever they want, though it's on an incident by incident basis.

and what?

[TallEmu]

The European Union today decided to go ahead with Galileo, the constellation of 30 satellites which will compete with the U.S. GPS system.

Competition is good right? People will be free to chose which positioning system to use? Sounds like the values America supposedly stands for to me...

The U.S. abolished selective availability three years ago partly to make GPS more useful for all mankind, but also to dissuade other countries from developing their own navigational satellite system, and thus be dependant on the U.S. for both peaceful and military purposes.

But it's still US Property, controlled owned (and presumably licenced by US companies). Why shouldn't Europe have one too?

Good thing for commercialization of space, or bad thing for world peace?"

Just cool new geek toys, and maybe a price-drop in GPS?

Re:It serves us right

[javiercero]

"while the U.S. accounted for less than 1% of all arms sales to Iraq."

Haaha hahha hahah hahaah buuahahaha hahhahah. Good one mate. I needed a laugh, of course you have to ignore the massive quantities of nerve and biological agents funneled into Iraq by US sources. And well if you want to talk about providing training and technology to roge states, we can alaways ask who trained and armed Mr. Osama Bin Laden. Was it the French? Hum... nope.

As late as 1998 Mr. Chenney was doing business with Iraq for over $25M via his beloved Haliburton. Quite interesting that one of the guys that claimed Saddam was such a scum bag that needed to be stopped did in fact help that douche bag to rebuilt Iraq infraestructures (well oil producing sturctures anyways... which is what the US was interested in after all). I guess Mr. Cheney just decided to cut the middle man and get the oil directly.

Oh, right... the Frenchies are the evil ones. Because the US has never sold weapons to nobody, rigth? The US is the largest weapons manufacturer in the world, who do you think they sell their tock to the girl scouts?

Re:Peace?

[JonMartin]

Unless you want to imply that the USmilitary is going to attack europe to stop them from lauching its satelittes...

Um yeah, that's a valid concern [arstechnica.com].

Re:I think it's a good thing

[Pall Agamemnides]

...unilateral US action (with its lackey GB, Spanish, and Aussie friends holding pom-poms)...

Well, in Europe alone, the US was supported by Great Britain, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Denmark, the Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, Albania, Bulgaria, Croatia, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, Romania, Slovakia, and Slovenia. These are just from the "Gang of Eight" and the "Vilnius Group". There was also some support from other countries as well, I think (Ireland and the Netherlands?). Among European governments, at any rate, there was more of a consensus for the US than against.

Re:It's not just about challenging the US military

[mnemonic_]

Actually, with differential GPS (2 GPS receivers with software corrected data), accuracies of 2 to 45cm are attainable.

Source: http://www.geod.emr.ca/index_e/geodesy_e/gps-13_e. html

Two receivers are used; one receiver over a known location (the base or reference receiver) and the second (Rover or roving receiver) is placed over the new or unknown location. The receivers track and record data from the same satellites at the same time recording similar information. The data is eventually transferred from the receivers to a computer. Specialized software is used to 'correct' the data.

But this is kind of moot for your example. Since when do commercial aircraft use GPS for landings? Inertial navigation systems coupled with ground based positioning transponders and cockpit instrumentation provide highly accurate navigation data close to the airport, when necessary for low-visibility landings.

America the Barbaric

[Wyatt Earp]

For all of the faults of the US, I don't think that anyone has any right to call them barbaric.

Europe 1914-18 - 10 million dead on Western Front
Europe 1914-17 - 2 million dead on Eastern Front
Europe 1939-45 - 12 million killed in death camps
Europe 1992-1999 - 250,000 killed in Former Yugoslavia
Russia 1918-1953 - 30-40 million starved to death, executed, slaughtered, etc
Europe 1941-45 - 20-30 million killed on Eastern Front
Europe - Post WW2 - killed while 790,000 repatriated to USSR
China - 1933-45 - 12 million killed
China - 1949-75 - 30-50 million starved to death, executed, slaughtered, etc
Algerian War - at least 36,000 killed
Pakistan - 1971 - 1-3 million Bengalis killed
Cambodia 1973-1980 - 1-3 million killed
Vietnam - 1945-75 - 1.2 million killed by US, No. Vietnam, So. Vietnam, France
Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos - 1-3 million killed by Communists following Vietnam War
Iraq - 2003 - 15-50 thousand killed
Iraq - 1990 - 25-100 thousand killed
Somalia - 1992-94 2-8 thousand killed
Granada 1983 - 2-6 hundred killed or wounded
Panama 1989 - 1-2 thousand killed

I'm all for the EU creating something like this Nav System, I'm also all for the EU defending it's self.

But it's not right to call America barbaric when the US fronts and wars are among the least bloody in the last 100 years.

Re:I think it's a good thing

[Pharmboy]

I get tired of this FUD. In spite of all the claims, more countries were with us now than in the first Gulf war. Less soldiers, because frankly, if they are not trained the same, they will get in the way (quality is not an issue). This was only the 2nd time since the founding of the UN that we bothered to go to the UN, which is where all the controversy started. Keep in mind, that 1441 passed with nary a no vote. Its just when it got time to pay the tab, many backed away for their own reasons.

Its ok to be against the war, just take your FUD elsewhere. Have enough courage to develop a real reason to be against it, other than popular European sentiment.

Re:Selective availability vs obfuscation

[Anonymous Coward]

Wrong. Selective availability *is* the degradation of the signal. Just follow the link provided in the post. What you are talking about is selective deniability.

And an anti-satellite laser

[LinuxHam]

We also test fired an anti-satellite laser [fas.org] at a satellite that was no longer in use. We were originally planning to destroy the unused satellite in the test, but other countries asked us not to do so in fear of all the little pieces flying around in orbit.

Re:I think it's a good thing

[JohnFluxx]

And how many of those countries were "with us" because they were forced to be?

I know that for example the carribean countries were given the choice of either voting for the war, not voting, or having all aid cut to them.

Re:GLONASS Dead?

[Multics]

http://www.glonass-center.ru/nagu.txt [glonass-center.ru] is the current status (in English).

There is enough Glonass still functioning that given a little luck one can still get a time sync and position about 50% of the time.

-- Multics

And yes... google is my friend.

Re:It serves us right

[freeweed]

Already happened, see: D-Day.

"Why Europe needs Galileo"

[nicklott]

In case anyone cares: This is why Europe needs Galileo [esa.int]

Re:World peace?

[ingmar]

Actually, AFAIK there will be no way to turn Galileo off. It is designed as a commercial alternative to GPS, and supposed to be there to stay.

GPS + terrain database

[Chep]

GPS gives you lat+long+(not too good altitude)
you can get the altitude from another source.

Compare with a terrain map --> you know the ground's altitude relative to sea level

Subtract --> you know your altitude relative to the ground, which is what you really want.

The alternative method is to send a radar ping to the ground; this should give you a very accurate reading, provided you send the beam in the right direction, and provided you don't mind the signal being picked up by ground stations (the problem in mil-craft being that said ground stations might belong to your opponent).

Trusting the US.

[rew]

Here in a little country called The Netherlands in Western Europe, we house the "international court of Justice". This formally has nothing to do with our country. We just happen provide a place for this institution to "live". This court tries to be fair to dirtbags that order thousands killed in wars.

The United States has "promised" us that they will invade us if "we" ever convict an American of such things.

So, the Europeans should trust their friendly American "friends", who openly refuse to be subjected to the internationally agreed upon "police"? Right.

There are always "differences" between countries. We think that shooting someone for being on your property is outrageous. You think that allowing small quantities of drugs is outrageous.

If at one point in time we (any European country) end up with a difference of opinion that the Americans find important, we'll certainly be refused the right to use the GPS system in a conflict situation.

Also, should anything go wrong with GPS, it's nice to have a backup. I mean how big is the chance that suddenly the Americans end up unable to launch (replacement) satelites for over a year? Only happened twice so far....

Re:GPS + terrain database

[Chep]

<BLOCKQUOTE>No, you know what someone thought the altitude was.</BLOCKQUOTE>

Fair enough. However, if the NOAA-gathered terrain databases are good enough to guide low-alt cruise missiles, they might be good enough to be used in aircraft too.

<BLOCKQUOTE>Assuming the ping is low power and fairly directional, and that the plane is at low altitude (else it would probably be using the barometric altimeter) that means the enemy would be able to detect you with the MkI eyeball or a head mounted compression wave detection array.</BLOCKQUOTE>

It's one thing to detect, it's another altogether to aim at. It's a no-brainer to have terrain avoidance radar-seeking AA guns; manually aiming an AA gun at a fast moving aircraft, no matter how noisy, is a much different thing.

Besides, the more directional you make your radar beam, the less chance it has of actually hitting the ground (you don't necessarily know what your orientation is when you're trying to figure out where the ground is).

Re:It serves us right

[Anonymous Coward]

Umm, youre right that french financial support was due to its war with britain, but it was quite a bit before Napoleon. Also bankrolling the American Revolution bankrupted france.

Then lets also not forget that most of the Philosophy that was used by your founding fathers to write your constitution was based directly or indirectly on French Enlightenment philosophy.

And it didnt stop there. The french also helped the US blockade southern ports during the Civil war as well.