Carmack Needs Rocket Fuel 662
Reality Master 101 writes "Saw an interesting post on the Experimental Rocket Propulsion Society BBS from John Carmack, who is working on an X-prize vehicle. Apparently he is having a lot of trouble getting Peroxide from the major suppliers, and is possibly thinking of helping someone set up a company to produce peroxide. With NASA's recent problems, there has been a lot of talk about promoting more private investment in rocketry. But how can it happen when the suppliers won't even sell peroxide to well financed, registered, X-prize teams? Anyone want to start a peroxide business?"
Interesting (Score:3, Interesting)
Hey, but we ARE talking rocket science here
Acutally one of the real issues here is that rocket fuel needs to be low explosive (i.e. an oxidizer and a fuel, rather than a high explosive where these are integrated into the same molecule). So there is not a whole lot of difference between what you might buy if you wanted to make a rocket and if you wanted to make a very large, low explosive bomb (think fertilizer/oil, gunpowder, etc).
My suggestion is go liquid fuel-- you can get liquid oxygen without too much hassle (needed for everything from medical to welding) and the fuel could consist of anything from kerosene to acetylene.
Re:What kind? (Score:5, Interesting)
It may perform a similar function in this vehicle.
Re:What kind? (Score:5, Interesting)
If I'm wrong on this, blame TLC and their show about the Kursk.
Translation (Score:3, Interesting)
Might as well be translated as:
"Does anyone want to start a business that will have its customer database searched routinely under the Patriot Act?"
Re:Lable under terrorist (Score:4, Interesting)
Never seen the real thing, but read up on the subject a while back. H2O2 isn't hypergolic only mixed with certain compounds, rather the other way around. You can only keep strong solutions of H2O2 (70-100%+ I guess.) IIRC you can only store it in clean environment with pure water (not tap water, pure H2O.) Any impurity in the solution or container will cause it to violently decompose, which is why Carmack wants it and maybe why he doesn't get it (seems unlikely, reading his post.)
Re:What kind? (Score:2, Interesting)
But during engine development, acoustic instabilities would cause the hybrid motor to spit out flaming chunks of rubber, and they smouldered and stank something fierce.
Actually, though, hybrid engines can be relatively clean, and are especially safe. While we were testing at Edwards, some Rocketdyne guys died when they dropped a section of solid rocket motor and it exploded. Our motor would have just bounced.
Either.... (Score:2, Interesting)
Actually he isn't being melodramatic enough (Score:3, Interesting)
H2O2 Rocketry? (Score:4, Interesting)
My favorite experiment was the sulfuric acid mixed with sugar. I thought it was so cool that I quickly used up all the acid and made my Dad go out and find a big bottle of it.
With all the regulations for liability now along with terrorist worries, it is probably impossible to even get half that stuff. No more ice cream made from liquid nitrogen now that I'm out of college.
I think it is just economics... (Score:3, Interesting)
I deal with this situtation everyday as an electrical engineer in the aerospace industry. We ask for something and we get ignored because the amount we are willing to spend or the quantity we want is not worth their effort.
It isn't personal, it is just economics. Money Paid - Product Cost - Product Overhead = Profit. In a chemical business, the margins are typically small, so they need to make it up in volume.
Re:What kind? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:No, I would not. It's too dangerous. (Score:5, Interesting)
Um, you can't get 100% hydrogen peroxide. It exists in equilibrium with water; above a certain critical point it spontaneously (and slowly) decomposes to produce water and dissolved oxygen.
In fact, peroxide is a really great rocket fuel. It's cheap. It's easy to handle. It's environmentally friendly. It can be used in monoprop and biprop engines, depending on what you do with it. It's hypergolic, which means it's trivial to build restartable engines (the shuttle's engines aren't restartable; they can only start with assistance from the ground). It's safe, too --- much safer than hydrazine, the most common hypergolic fuel, which is horribly poisonous, carcinogenic and can be unstable, to boot.
Yes, hydrogen peroxide can be nasty. It's a rocket fuel, for gods' sake --- it's supposed to decompose violently. You just have to be careful, and it's a hell of a lot easier to manage than stuff like liquid oxygen. Now, that stuff really is painful to handle.
Peroxide isn't the best fuel; it's got a specific impulse [nasa.gov] of only about 160-190 seconds when used as a monoprop, but so does hydrazine. And, if you use it as a biprop with kerosene, it goes up to 200-230, which means your ship can have one small tank of kerosene for the main engines and one large tank of peroxide which runs the main engines plus the thrusters. Compare with the shuttle, which uses loads of different fuel types, each with their own storage and delivery systems.
(The best fuels on the referenced page are in the region of 300 to 385. Hydrogen and flourine. Ack!)
But hydrogen peroxide is the perfect choice for a small setup like Armadillo. All you need are a few simple safety precautions --- bleeder valves, non-reactive storage facilities, some basic technical expertise in handling the stuff --- and you're fine.
Re:Interesting (Score:4, Interesting)
Check this link: for mor e info on using h2o2 as a propellant. [astronautix.com]
Re:Hydrogen Peroxide (H202) (Score:5, Interesting)
Actually, there were production aircraft powered by hydrogen peroxide rockets. The German Me163 was a rocket-powered fighter aircraft - tiny, but capable of almost 600mph. My flying instructor, who flew in the RAF during the Second World War, said that whenever they saw Me163 fly overhead, they flew in the opposite direction so they could catch them coming back, when they were out of fuel. Otherwise, they couldn't get near them...
There's an article in Flight Journal [flightjournal.com] about them. The description of the engine is on page 3.
Re:How much? (Score:3, Interesting)
Not really. It's enough to keep a small handfull of grease-monkeys employed full-time for a year -- not including equipment and supplies. It's probably enough to pay for a part-time production facility -- but that's what Carmack sounds like he wants to avoid.
No shit, there's a reason (Score:1, Interesting)
Some of the stuff nasa uses on the shuttle is lethal in microscopic amounts; I remember reading that maintenance on certain components(despite being unpressurized/offline) is done in full, sealed isolation suits. That's one reason NASA told everyone to keep the hell away from debris. You could literally pick up something and be dead minutes later.
Probably also helped, at least a little, to keep people from scavenging.
Re:Lable under terrorist (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:H2O2 Rocketry? (Score:2, Interesting)
This post IS on topic ! It has to do with how people can't get chemicals because of dangers they might cause.
Re:Carmack is fragbait. (Score:5, Interesting)
At the world space congress last year, I was talking to Buzz Aldrin's son, who is head of acquisitions at Boeing. He really didn't believe that cheap, reusable launchers were possible (he thinks "billions of dollars in development"), but he said that if we win the X-Prize, demonstrating cheaper launch for even suborbital lobs, Boeing would "just buy us".
From our short discussion, it was clear that we have quite different world views, so I hesitate to read much into his statements one way or the other, but it was a bit curious.
John Carmack
That's probably restricted (Score:1, Interesting)
In my college some guys were trying to get a less powerful (solid) fuel for their toy rocket but it's use is restricted by the militaries because it could be used to create misiles or bombs for terrorists.
Rhodium, Palladium, Platinum, Gold and Silver (Score:4, Interesting)
Well Tecnologia Aeroespacial Mexicana [tecaeromex.com] sells hydrogen peroxide distillation stills [tecaeromex.com] made entirely in borosilicate glass _image_ [tecaeromex.com] that merely removes the excess water. $5900 USD for a 20L unit.
They also sell a special catalyst [tecaeromex.com] _image _ [tecaeromex.com] made of Rhodium, Palladium, Platinum, Gold and Silver.
They also build rocket engines [tecaeromex.com] for satelites and jet packs. They also race [tecaeromex.com] jet cars and jet bikes. A link to some people [tecaeromex.com] that do this sort of thing....
Some info from the site...
The hydrogen peroxide rocket engines are in fact steam rockets, but this steam is produced by a violent exothermic reaction of the peroxide. When passed through a catalyst pack, it decomposes into superheated steam and oxygen. This steam and oxygen at high pressure is expelled supersonically through a DeLaval nozzle, which produces thrust.
For each volume of liquid injected at the catalyst, after the reaction you get 600 times this volume expelled at the nozzle.
The most important part of these rockets are the catalyst pack, other elements of the system are a stainless steel pressure tank to hold the peroxide, a pressure tank to store nitrogen to pressurize the peroxide, a pressure regulator, a flow regulator, valves, lines and gauges.
The nitrogen is used to pressurize the peroxide tank and push the peroxide outside the tank. When a flow valve is opened the peroxide is injected into the injection plate of the rocket.
The catalyst is made of many silver screens that in the reaction converts the liquid hydrogen peroxide into very hot steam and oxygen at a high pressure, this jet of gas is used to impulse the vehicle.
This kind of rocket together with steam or a hot water rocket is the safest of all the rocket engines. This rocket does not produce flame and between the rocket is considered a cool rocket that doesn't need cooling and can be made of stainless steel.
The Hydrogen Peroxide is the same product used as antiseptic, but in space and rockets it is used at 80% to 98% strength, I use it at 90% and I produce my own peroxide.
The Hydrogen Peroxide is the only product used in the reaction, this places it in the monopropellant liquid rocket fuel classification.
The Hydrogen Peroxide contrary to many false information I read in the web, is a clear liquid, non volatile, non explosive, non inflammable and non toxic product that looks like water but with a great amount of oxygen, thats why in many languages its name is "oxygenated water", this product has a slight biting odor and a little bit irritating for the eyes, at the contact with the skin and the eyes it produces oxidation burns, so you must always wear rubber gloves and a face mask to cover your eyes.
This product increase its stability with concentration, yes!, the more pure and concentrated, the more stable!.
The 90% hydrogen peroxide must be stored in special 5254 aluminum alloy containers with vented caps in shaded or fresh rooms preferably, the product is safer to store than gasoline!, but you must store it in approved containers for hydrogen peroxide service.
The hydrogen peroxide is unstable only if it is contaminated and decomposes easily with almost any impurity, the heavy metals, some strong alkalis and the permanganates decompose it instantaneous liberating a great amount of energy in the form of very hot steam and oxygen.
At this strength the hydrogen peroxide is a very strong oxidizer and upon contact with organic mater it is burned, for instance if you soak a cotton rag with 90% hydrogen peroxide it burns very fast, also it can react in a hypergolic way if mixed with other chemicals.
Re:Hydrogen Peroxide (H202) (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Slashdotted, here is his post (Score:2, Interesting)
Crude production. A working solution of alkylated anthraquinones which is alternately hydrogenated (using either nickel or palladium catalyst) and then air oxidized to split off H2O2. Each producer has its proprietary collection of anthrquinones, and maintaining the integrity of this working solution is key to safe and efficient H2O2 production.
Separation. The (water insoluble) working solution is then separated from the H2O2 by solvent extraction, and then concentrated and returned to the hydrogenator. The crude H2O2 (about 40% w/w) is sent to distillation.
Purification. Crude H2O2 is purified by distilling to about 60% w/w. This storage product may then be diluted to 35% or 50%, distilled to 70%, and/or purified for high-purity uses (e.g., food processing or semiconductor manufacture).
Stabilization. Since H2O2 decomposition is accelerated by trace levels of contaminants (esp. transition metals) stabilizers are added prior to shipping and storage. The type and level of stabilizer depends on the product grade, but generally consists of chelants/sequestrants such as inorganic and organic phosphates, and/or stannate and silicate.
I think Elf makes peroxides as well in the Houston area. May be able to get a French company to ship to you
Re:Lable under terrorist (Score:3, Interesting)
LOX is a powerful oxidizer, too, and reacts explosively even with a greasy fingerprint. With a 90 degrees kelvin boiling temperature it can cause severe cold burns, troublesome ice condensation and makes most materials brittle and more prone to failure.
The Nazi's found this out with their Me163's which actually had more losses due to refueling than combat losses
The problems early German and British rocket builders had with H2O2 are probably related to impurities that caused it to spontaneously decompose. High purity H2O2 available today, handled and stored properly in clean compatible containers and treated with respect is relatively safe.
Chemical, semiconductors and other industries regularly handle much nastier compounds and they are regularly transported in tanker trucks that may be passing not far from your home.
The relative safety of a compound is largely a matter of perception, not fact.
why not go for the AERO rocket fule (Score:2, Interesting)