Carmack Needs Rocket Fuel

Reality Master 101 writes "Saw an interesting post on the Experimental Rocket Propulsion Society BBS from John Carmack, who is working on an X-prize vehicle. Apparently he is having a lot of trouble getting Peroxide from the major suppliers, and is possibly thinking of helping someone set up a company to produce peroxide. With NASA's recent problems, there has been a lot of talk about promoting more private investment in rocketry. But how can it happen when the suppliers won't even sell peroxide to well financed, registered, X-prize teams? Anyone want to start a peroxide business?"

What kind?

[hether]

Sorry for the ignorance. What kind of peroxide is necessary for something like this?

Lable under terrorist

[banzai51]

I wonder how much that has to do with the material possibly being labled as bomb making material. I could be way off base. Anyone in the industry want to enlighten us?

Labeled a terrorist by the BATF, FBI

[codepunk]

The problem with anything like this is that you will immediately have the damn BATF, FBI goons breathing down your neck. 90% pure hydrogen peroxide is a oxidizer, it could be used for bad things (bombs) or hybrid rocket research by private citizens. The problem is that the gubment will target you as a hostile terrorist first. I wanted to do private rocket research on using thermite as a hybrid rocket propellant. This would require the purchase of aluminum powder, guaranteed visit by the BATF. I found that it just was not worth the possible hassle.

Re:Carmack is fragbait.

[Tackhead]

> Paranoid rubbish.
>
>For starters, they'd have off-site backups.

Off-site backups which would conveniently be unreadable. "Whoops, the tape heads were misaligned when the tape got written. Aaw, shucks!"

More to the point - while having an "accident" is unlikely - in that the PR costs would be enormous, and no CEO would want to sign off on it, the takeover and burial of the technology is pretty easy.

If the success of a competitor's tech means the loss of 90% of your margins, you buy the competitor.

If the success of a campaign contributor's competitor means the loss of 90% of the pork you can distribute to your Congressional district, and thus, the loss of jobs in your constituency, you make damn sure the FTC ignores antitrust concerns when analyzing the takeover of said competitor.

This isn't really about Armadillo, it's about Shuttle/ISS, and why DC-X, X-33, the frickin' Shuttle "C" heavy lift vehicle, and everything else that could cut the cost to orbit, never makes it off the ground.

I've watched it happen, over and over again, and the only conclusion I can draw is that there's too much money to be made by recipients of pork, and too many votes to be had by spreading said pork around, to ever allow the development of cheap access to space.

Asking Congress, Boeing, and NASA in charge of putting stuff cheaply and reliably in space, is like putting Fritz Hollings, Britney Spears, and RIAA in charge of reducing the cost of CDs. Anyone who threatens the RIAA business model, gets stomped on (Napster) or sued into oblivion and bought out (mp3.com).

(If that analogy strikes you as too karma-whorish, then fine - it's also how Valenti and Rosen would react to putting Rep. Rick Boucher, Napster and Kazaa in charge of the committee to mandate a DRM solution in every set-top box. :-)

A bit naive

[SimJockey]

Gotta love when people get way out of their element. This guy really needs to get over his persecution complex. FMC and Degussa likely aren't "jerking you around" for shits and giggles. There is a pretty substantial liability issue with fun stuff like peroxide, and even legitimate buyers likely have a whack of paperwork to wade through. I used to run through some of the paperwork to buy chlorine gas for water treatment plants. Chemical companies kinda want to know who you are before they go selling you potential weapons of mass destruction.

Plus, $100K worth of peroxide may not be a big order to these guys. Small order means that they don't care as much about you, especially if you want some custom spec on it.

What would be better for him to consider is a really experienced procurement specialist, who knows the market and can source things properly. Much better use of money than building your own production facility. Hire someone already in the chemical brokering business to handle the paperwork and pay them a fee for it. Way safer than some enlightened amatuer thinking that it can't be too tough to purify peroxide.

Re:What kind?

[_ph1ux_]

hmmm....

Thats really interesting. I wonder if you could use one of these types of engines coupled to the Steam Powered Underwater Jet Engine [slashdot.org]

It would be really awesome to see this tried - although I dont know how much peroxide would be required to produce enough for distance travelling etc....

but still no doubt a perfect match for an experiment.

Re:Not exactly general interest news, but...

[glrotate]

The only thing that restrains it is a priori regulation.

What happened to judges throwing out baseless cases?
What happened to State Supreme Courts actually disbarring these pernicious highwaymen?

Because the lawyers have been so pitiful in policing their own, it looks like Bush is going to do it for them.

Re:Why not NITROMETHANE?

[gurudyne]

Nitromethane can be overly exciting to use as a monopropellant. The flame front has a tendency to creep upstream, past the injectors, through the fuel lines and into the fuel tank.

Backfire with a vengance.

Re:Not exactly general interest news, but...

[sean23007]

If NASA could launch for 10x less, they wouldn't fire 90% of their scientists, they'd probably launch 10x more (or actually like 7x more, and stay within budget so as to spend more time/money on safety).

Re:What kind?

[sk8king]

and technically, hydrogen peroxide is H202..two hydrogens and two oxygens per molecule.

Two hydrogens also means it is technically dihydrogen, just as water is dihydrogen monoxide. I don't know what defines peroxide....I would guess H2O2 would be dihydrogen dioxide, but I haven't taken chemistry in 14 years so what do I know.